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Boxes in Boxes and Pages in Pages[edit]

Hello everyone, I'm here to shake-up the current version of the Wiki which I find extremely frustrating, hard to use and especially a pain in the ass to edit due to the "rules" that you have here. There were multiple threads on Reddit regarding Wiki and a lot of complaints came from the fact that information is not easy to find and it requires multiple clicks.

One of the main issues that I personally have with our wiki is the fact that I am required to click and click in order to get to what I'm interested instead of having the relevant information directly available instead of having it on different pages for "archiving purposes".

It's been a while since I've edited anything on a wiki, so bear with me.

Things that need to change:

Containers such as reward boxes should have all the contents listed and if any armor / skins are available, have them directly displayed on the page of the main box. Every other box can be displayed in a tree structure but the main rewards should be directly available.
Collection items should have the means of acquisition directly on the page. No more pages to click just because one is an item and the other one is an item of the collection. That's pointless. If a user wants to find a collection item he should be able to do so with a simple /wiki and no other clicks.
Skin / Armor codes are useless outside of the game on a wiki page. If a page has codes but doesn't have images, images should be added next to the codes.
Improvements to "galleries". Larger images, set location for screenshots, etc.

tl;dr, no more pages in pages. Markus Clouser User Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 10:37, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Could you perhaps give examples of what you're describing so we can better see the changes you are asking for? E.g. you ask for reward boxes to have all their contents listed, yet I believe we strive to do exactly that. A bit more clarity would help me pin down what you're unhappy with, and what adjustments you're hoping to see happen. G R E E N E R 16:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Happy you asked. I will be making a list here of all the pages that I have issues with. I will keep on adding but I can assure you that I will NOT be making any edits to any of the pages.
Let's begin:
* https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Armor_Box - No gallery for armor.
Markus Clouser User Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 00:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
We don’t usually have galleries on container pages like that(would blow the page up I think is why), but links to the armor overview pages where the galleries can be found wouldn’t be a bad idea and could be added. - Doodleplex 00:30, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I added links to the top of the page. G R E E N E R 03:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Part of the problem here is people's lack of inclination to upload gallery images themselves. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 07:45, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Regarding what Markus Clouser said initially: I think it's true that this wiki currently has a bit of an issue with item data split up over too many pages. I'm not saying this is "wrong" or overly complex per se (I mean "Boxes in Boxes" is not a wiki issue; it's the game's issue), but I can acknowledge that other users might find the wiki confusing. One long term solution would be to add mouseover/hover tooltips to item links that show the item's stats, and maybe a gallery image, at a glance. I guess this "solution" has been discussed previously, and I doubt it plays well with MediaWiki, but I just thought I'd mention it. --Blackice (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Update: Just noticed that the tooltip framework qTip2 is currently used on this wiki as part of the Semantic MediaWiki extension. Example:
I'm a fancy tooltip! Mini Maraca Choya Pinata.png
. Seems like setting up item tooltips would only require a bit JavaScript. --Blackice (talk) 20:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Further reaching out to the GW2 community[edit]

Hi folks, an idea has been rolling through my mind for nearly a year now, and I admit it's my mistake for not bringing it up earlier. I've been hesitant because I know it may be a sensitive topic, but that shouldn't mean we avoid it.

The Guild Wars 2 community at large is vast and varied, and the wiki constitutes just a portion of what's out there. We have focused on providing players with useful information in text or picture form as that's the medium we have at our disposal. We know though that some information just cannot be captured by words or single images, and that's the subject I would like to bring up now.

Previously, there was a small discussion around a "Life in Tyria" video featuring devourers on the devourer page. I had mentioned that I'd be interested in seeing this expanded, but I did not push the topic further as the discussion garnered little interest. After seeing this video showcasing Auric Basin, I'd like to open the discussion again in a more open forum. Mainly, how do we feel about including high quality overviews of topics which add to the information the wiki is trying to provide? Obviously judging such things is subjective and prone to disagreements, but would we be willing to consider such additions at all?

Do feel free free to express your thoughts, and I fully admit that I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I've learned though that this community has a habit of taking a small idea and refining it in surprising ways. G R E E N E R 00:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Part of me worries about this being a slippery slope -- I've seen trivia sections on other wikis get bloated with cringy crap because people kept adding dubious links that only made sense in their own minds -- but in fairness, I don't think I've ever really seen "external videos" sections suffer the same fate, and our trivia sections are pretty clean compared to some other wikis anyway. So, as long as we're clear and open about what sort of content we're okay with adding, I'm not against this idea. --Idris (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't think the discussion is about what we put in the trivia section. Most of the time, that tells me the video serves no purpose for the article.
Videos of panorma shots of areas over in-game would be super easy to add to articles. There aren't any roadblocks for adding that kind of content to the wiki. Most of discussion related to videos was for jumping puzzles, and I feel that we overcompensated at this point with settling for general Youtube links and that sets the precedent for the rest of the content.
Video guides and walkthroughs are much harder to sell on the wiki and I don't think we will provide a place to have those ultimately leave creative control to the creator. Those are hot spots for bikeshedding and requiring additional moderation that we either can't or shouldn't handle. Other sites like the forums, guild websites, Youtube, or Dulfy do a much better job and I haven't seen that situation change in the years the wiki has been up.
Stuff that is on the table to me would be panorama shots, in-game dialogue audio and/or video, animations, in-game cutscenes, and other content that doesn't require an authorative or personal view to present.--Relyk ~ talk < 04:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
"I don't think the discussion is about what we put in the trivia section. Most of the time, that tells me the video serves no purpose for the article." -- To clarify, I didn't think we were talking about the trivia section; I was drawing a parallel to it because, like external videos, trivia tends to be quite subjective, and sometimes people will add things like "this NPC said "I'll be back", which is a reference to The Terminator <link to imdb page for the Terminator> <link to youtube clip of that scene from Terminator> Also, the NPC is muscley like Arnold Schwarzenegger. <link to Arnold's Wikipedia article>" -- but it'll turn out that the NPC was just some norn announcing that he was going out to market and there's no intended reference whatsoever. But because that dubious trivia was added to the page, other editors would feel emboldened to add dubious references their own favourite canons or memes. Like I said though, I don't feel like there's a huge risk of that sort of thing happening in this case. --Idris (talk) 11:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
My main concern with adding videos is that videos are hard to maintain. They're tougher to make quality videos compared to text or images, so the bar is higher for entry which feels counter-intuitive to the wiki's purpose. If the content the video is representing changes, the video is less relevant and would need updating, and that could easily mean making a whole new video. There's also the matter of the quality control itself, similar to what Idris brings up - making sure those videos added actually are accurate and of good quality to reflect the wiki. And there's a risk of "picking favorites" among editors - some may view Video A of Content X to be a better quality than Video B of Content X, but other editors think the reverse or even Video C is better - what would be done then? Link just one (how to choose?) or link them all (where does it end? the 10th video?). That last bit is why we made {{youtube}} and I rather prefer that over the hassle of the rest. Konig (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Achievement blow up[edit]

So I don't have an issue adding related achievements to pages where applicable, but I do have an issue when it starts to blow up the pages to nearly double the size due to the {{achievement}} template being used, and on mobile devices, the template doesn't even work right at all and just breaks(which is probably fixable on the template I imagine). I was wondering if perhaps we could avoid using that oversized template on things other than the acquisition section on item pages and story page's achievements and perhaps just do a text link instead which would leave space for a short explanation or maybe add a "related achievement" section in infoboxes. Not to mention, a giant box doesn't really provide much help when the link to said achievement can be a tad obscure, I've come across a few things where I was honestly confused as to why there was an achievement template there and had to dig around, which isn't particularly helpful for your average user to have to do. - Doodleplex 21:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I like the amount of information a full template box provides compared to a simple link, but if it's causing bloat and display issues then yeah, we should probably swap it out for something else. My screen is small enough that wide templates like that one tend to create a lot of whitespace, which I'm not a fan of. Maybe we should redesign the template to be more compact? --Idris (talk) 21:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Doodle, can you give us some examples of where you feel its currently taking too much space, and tell us what type of device - can you take a screenshot? Help us find out what's broken and we can assess what can be done. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 21:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Alex, if I knew how to take screenshots on my phone I would, I honestly don't have a clue because the darn thing has a mind of it's own. =< Basically it either hits the side of the page and the table sort of looks like the ending column of tiers and such is all mushed together or it just gets cut off and I can't make the page scroll sideways. (Additionally Template:Bags nav is even worse, it covers the side navigation completely and goes off page on the other end.) 5 Bauble is the only thing I can think of where it's taking up a lot of space, it went from being a page that didn't even have a scroll bar to where all of the related achievements is half of the page's size.
Idris, it wouldn't be a single link, it would be more like maybe :'''[[Link to achievement page/achievement category pate|<achievement name>]]''' - <brief explanation>". So if there was an achievement involved feeding a muffin to a moose, on the moose page it could be :'''[[Community#If you give a Moose a Muffin...|If you give a Moose a Muffin...]]''' - Feeding any moose one muffin. Gives the name of the achievement, goes to achievement category page, gives brief info on why the moose is involved. - Doodleplex 21:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I dunno. A lot of walkthroughs for achievements show up on the articles for related events/objects/etc because the achievement is too complicated for a note on the category page, but too straightforward for a dedicated article. I'm not keen on removing easily identifiable markers on such pages that say "This is what you're looking for! Achievement walkthrough here!". Yeah, that's the TOC and header's job, but people still tend to scroll blindly anyway. --Idris (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Achievement template was meant primarily for achievements that had specific pages since the objects are stored at the achievement category. The template is overkill for most other places where you don't need to dump all the information. We never identified a succinct version for general use. It's particularly distracting on acquisition sections for items, world boss pages, and some other places.--Relyk ~ talk < 07:01, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
That's why I suggested a compact redesign, or a new template that's specifically intended for Related Achievements sections. --Idris (talk) 15:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Well if we want to start with a few examples of the current layout, both good and bad.
  • A Family Heirloom - an achievement guide page. Probably the original intention of the template. Good.
  • Pylon Attunement: Blue - a short page, the box tells us there's an achievement associated. Seems okay.
  • Time Trial - Width of descriptions misaligns everything. Ugly.
  • Bounty#Related achievements - Quite a lot of them. Could be combined or linked as a bulleted list to the achievement pages? Borderline bad.
  • Sniper Volley - a skill page for an object. I would only expect to find this template on the related event page. Bad.
  • Plush Armchair - a decoration page. Imo the achievement template is out of place here. Bad.
-Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 18:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Out of what the template currently shows, the only important things I think would be needed/would want to know about in regards to an achievement are the name of the achievement, the category it's in, and whatever the reward is(if applicable); I wouldn't add the description because often those are fairly vague and don't really help. Perhaps for effects, the infobox could have an achievement parameter since there are a decent number of effects that track achievements. As for what the new template would be, not entirely sure, it sounds like we need two new templates not one, i.e. one for item acquisition(since that gets bulky fast for some stuff) and another for related achievements for just about everything else. - Doodleplex 21:55, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
So after messing around a bit, I think the Effect infobox should get rid of the "story chapter" part(it doesn't seem to work anyway), add in an optional achievement parameter to go to a walkthrough for an achievement/the achievement's page if it exists, and leave the instance part as is mostly but tweak it to go to the achievement section of a story instance(done by [[{{{story}}}#Achievements|{{{story}}}]]). My thinking is nearly all achievement related effects are linked to story instances, and the only one I could think of that isn't is Key Hoarder which is part of Open Skies: Sunspear Wisdom, and those tweaks would cover both things. This way people would pretty much go directly to a page using the achievement template in the way it was meant to be used and get a lot a information about the achievement instead of being a bloated box that may not be very clear on an otherwise tiny effect page. - Doodleplex 16:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
(putting in the same indentation because continuing the above, just at a later time) Also, I have an idea for something I've been trying to get figured out for a while now and might have the answer. What if for item acquisition, instead of using the achievement template, we have something similar to how the "Dropped by" template, except it would be called "Rewarded by" and only list what source that rewards the item and the source type. It would list anything that rewards an item, which would cover pretty much nearly everything that we've had to write in manually, aka: dungeons, story rewards, activities, adventures, and events as well as achievements. So something like this:
Source Source Type
Kill the megadestroyer before it blows everyone up Dynamic event
Setting the Stage Personal story
Honor of the Waves Dungeon
Lion's Arch Exterminator Achievement
On Wings of Gold Adventure
Southsun Survival Activity
Also it would collapsible like the Drops table is, preventing an item like the from bloating up pages. Additionally, "Template:Rewards" isn't being used and would fit nicely for what would populate the "Rewarded by" template. As for the how, well, pretty much the same as the "Dropped by" template except perhaps use the property "Gives item" which already exists and make a new page property called "Has source type" or something for the second column. If it's not too much a hassle, maybe do the same thing as the vendor list having historical NPCs grayed out except grayed out for things that are historical like some achievements and such, but that's not really a must have imo. - Doodleplex 23:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Hyphens in time adjectives[edit]

I don't know where else to ask this. Is it preferred to say something like "10 minute event" or "10-minute event"? It seems from my (quick) searching there should be a dash or hyphen in the amount, but since most people don't do it, what's the convention here (new to wiki)? Does anyone care if I go and change these? --Notme (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's what our general formatting guide has to say. As you can see, it doesn't really address your question; I think on the whole we don't really care so much about cases like this. If you're editing a page for some other reason and happen to spot a missing hyphen, then fix away, but I don't think it's worth flooding the recent changes with a hundred "(+1 byte) added a hyphen" edits for. --Idris (talk) 22:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
the dash looks really weird to me, I'm not sure its worth changing tbh. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 17:55, 18 April 2018 (UTC)