Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Community portal

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Body font size[edit]

Imho 13px size for the general body text is tiny for nowadays' accessibility standards. Anywhere I look on the web, they recommend at least 16px. I think changing it would only break infoboxes and the main page, so we could leave those at the current size to save hassle. But for the rest I've been using 16px client-side via a browser extension for years, without any issue. -- kazerniel (talk | contribs) 16:31, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

(mostly for my own reference when i look at this next:)
Mediawiki MonoBook theme by default has the CSS rule on the body element as "font: x-small sans-serif;" without doing anything to that, the size works out at 10px. Now that is spectacularly small. #globalWrapper is then set to font-size:127% which puts the size at 12.8px. Still small. Actually a fragment smaller than what we usually display our fonts as due to our custom CSS.
Currently our CSS Mediawiki:Monobook.css changes the size back to "font-size: 0.8125em;" (which would appear as 16.5px), but we've also got #globalWrapper and this time that is set to font-size: 100% (essentially applies an undo on the 127% rule) resulting in the 13px you mentioned.
If we change the initial rule to "font: medium sans-serif;", then we could do away with the #globalWrapper { font-size: 127% } and body { font-size: 0.8125em } rules. The final size would be 16px as you mentioned.
As to the appearance, it's a tiny bit big for my liking but I'm not averse to changing it. We might need to scale the headers back a bit (they're based on an EM number so will scale depending on the size we set the body element to) - your proposal would inflate the headings from 25px to 30.7px.
btw, anyone who wants a very quick and dirty preview of Kazerniel's suggestion can do so by previewing {{Custom CSS|form|css= body { font: medium sans-serif !important; } }} on any page. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 18:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
That is super large in my opinion. Why not let the people that want a larger font zoom with their browser? —Kvothe (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Browsers zoom images as well, not just text, making them blurry and unwieldily large. -- kazerniel (talk | contribs) 21:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the default text size is too small. I've been using 110% zoom here since forever. --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 00:28, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Let's do a trial for a week and see what feedback we get. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 17:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
No way José. You want to run some A/B tests or whatever, let's plan it out first. - Felix Omni 17:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Have to say such large text is a no from me, unless it can be changed with some settings/making optional. ~Sime 17:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I usually use the wiki in a 1920*1080 resolution with the browser maximized and I have no issues with the font size, they are fine for me. Thing is, nowadays standards are messed up, whoever set it thinks everyone is on mobile or 4k screens nowadays but hey, there are still desktop users with average screens. I hate how websites nowadays have been using huge fonts for simple paragraph texts. I'm not that blind :P Sure, I'm all up for accessibility and options and it would be great if users have a way to set the size, but I don't agree having a huge font as default for the whole thing. That would just reverse the effect: please the currently annoyed and annoy the currently pleased. It's not any website's fault if users want to browser fully-maximized in a 4k screen. :P ----Txonä Atan - (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Just noticed that this thread got more responses. I'm personally on a 20" screen with 1680x1050 resolution, so very much not 4k. I simply like to read websites without squinting. I brought the topic up mostly to make the wiki keep up with modern accessibility standards, rather than for my own comfort (as I can just edit client-side CSS as I've been doing). -- kazerniel (talk | contribs) 15:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Actually, browsers have had a font settings for ages and web developers simply forgot/overrode it by setting their own sizes and stuff. If there would be a way to make the style work with that it could be a good option. --Txonä Atan - (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Stone Summit and Wurmslayer's armor pieces[edit]

Going through what has missing pictures, I've noticed the Stone Summit and Wurmslayer's armor pages are missing pictures. However, I do not think we need a full gallery section for these pages:

  1. There are no changes at all between races or weight class for Stone Summit armor pieces, so literally one picture works for everything, so it's quite pointless there.
  2. They aren't full sets of armor, Wurmslayer is only gloves, hat and shoulders, while Stone Summit has that and some shoes. It might be better just to have close up pictures of the individual pieces and leave those on the page instead.

Thoughts? - Doodleplex 16:07, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The Armor of Dhuum helms are like that but have a full gallery, so I think that we either stick with the no full gallery (which makes sense to me) or do a full gallery for everything. We'd have to go through the other incomplete armor galleries to unify stuff either way. Just some food for thought. In the end though, I agree for a half-gallery section, especially since there's no changes across weight/race. Nightwhisper (talk) 02:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I personally don't care if all the pieces will be in one pic (and that one will be shared among the weight pages) or if they are gonna be single, as long as the pictures are presented. I also agree with Nightwhisper that no matter what we pick, we should unify the pages, since some partial armor sets liket the Shadow of the Dragon skins don't even have a page. I mean, technically they do not need a set page but we should treat all partial armor sets to the same standard.
Though, a bit to this is related to get a picture of an armor, you have to click on the Armor page overview and I personally think that all armor pages should have a picture of the armor, not just the overview. (I know it is a bit of a derailment but wanted to say it). ~Sime 03:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry Nightwisper, what do you mean by a "half gallery"? Do you mean just gallery of the armor pieces and nothing else? If so, that's fine with me. I agree though, what we do here will be elsewhere if applicable, however, I'm only aware of these two pieces, so if there are others, let me know. - Doodleplex 00:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Festival activity summary instead of availability[edit]

Hello, I was thinking that instead of the Availability table for festival activities as we have now, we should instead make a table to summarize what the activities are, how to get there and what the rewards are without the need to go through all the pages.

I think for users it is more important to know this than when the activity was made available (from what I gathered from questions on reddit, people want a "guide", which basically what I propose would be), no one cares that Orphans weren't available before 2015. Obviously we wouldn't just delete this data, they could be added either as a note or another row to the Activity table. I talked about it a bit with Doodle and she wasn't against, but I wanted to go here and ask more people. This is a concept how it would look, it would include all the main festival activities + the Other activities could contain side stuff, like collecting the daily gift from Tixx as an example, since unless you go through the dialogue on his page/the consumable page you wouldn't have an idea you can get it. ~Sime 15:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I like the idea, would you like to make it into one template per festival, one big template or just write on the pages directly? DJemba (talk) 00:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
It would probably just be one table per page as suggested on my sandbox, don't really think a template to use on only one page is necessary (since all festivals have different activities). ~Sime 00:36, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Like I said, I just did a quick look before and it looked fine. Looking properly, as long as the plan is to incorporate the other activities/races/etcs, that are there currently(I like that you want to add Tixx, great idea), I think it's a great idea. - Doodleplex 00:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Obviously it would include all the activities that are available for the festival, just picked only some of them for the sandbox WIP. ~Sime 00:52, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Enemy Locations[edit]

Gonna write it here as well so we wouldnt forget. The whole idea is to not write the same information multiple times and ofcorse having it accurate. Using templates like Template:NPC location and Template:NPC location list. The conversation can be found here. We are already using this kind of template for nodes as well so I dont see any reason why to not use it on enemies as well . But the decision is up to admins. The preceding unsigned comment was added by DiegoDeLaHouska (talkcontribs) at 17:11, 2 January 2021‎ (UTC).

Decision is up to the community. —Kvothe (talk) 21:13, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Community or players or community of admins here ? Also sorry that I forgot to sign myself. Mostly I dont forget that =( --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Told it once already, will tell it again. Templating part of this wouldn't be that hard, we have most of it done already. However there are several major problems.
  1. We'd need to check the data of every or almost every NPC to confirm where it actually is, because often the NPC is listed on the area page but the area is not mentioned on the NPC page, or vice versa.
  2. My other problem is inclusivity towards new editors. Adding a location as some template parameter will make it unable for new editors participate in what I'd consider one of the easiest things to start with.
  3. NPCs with unusual spawn conditions. While i think we could eventually find a way how to work around all of them, there are so many edge cases that we would have to spend extreme amount of time either finding a way to generalize, or hardcoding it into the templates anyways.
DJemba (talk) 23:31, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
First one sure every page can be random so bot or scrips might not work right. We would still need to do it manualy or check later manualy. Third point, well dont know how many difernet conditions you mean but if you mean "during events" and so on, we can still write it into notes and it would work. It would even work if you write another template into the notes. But the secound point I still dont understand. We are not here to pull new editors but to provide accurate information for players. Even now some of the experienced editors doesnt have time to be here anymore. They have lives and other games they want to try. Noone will be here forever So the less work there will be for the future generations the better. You are scared that it would scare new potentional editors if they would see template ? Really ? Every new patch you can see people just copy and paste from previous pages anyway . Even the more experienced editors do that anyway. New editors doesnt need to understand what is that template , why its there or how to write it. They will just copy it as always. The secound argument has no logic for me what so ever and you are focusing on a direction you shouldnt be focusing in a first place. But again that is just my oppinion. That is why we are talking about it for now. --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 00:21, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
There are some NPCs that only appear during events. Both allied and enemy. Problem is, we don't have event only NPCs on area pages, so they wouldn't be able to use those templates. There's also some NPCs that moved locations, those original locations wouldn't be able to use the template since they're no longer there. Then there's historical NPCs, which nope can't use it because they're no longer in those areas. That's not including NPCs that can be in a location or not based on time of day or the meta. Also you are wrong, we do want to attract new editors, and having a template to simply add an NPC to an area can be very off putting and is a great way to scare people off, which we don't want. I for one do not want to scare off new editors, and there's so many inconsistency, coupled with the fact it would probably take years to even attempt to get, and even then I'm not sure it could be done properly, that I'd rather say no and put our effort into something else more productive.
However...I will say, I think these templates could be perfect if repurposed for story NPCs since those are pretty unchanging and would be a great way to make sure all story NPC have their story instance listed on their pages. I think is much more feasible to do and could even possibly be a bot task. - Doodleplex 01:19, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Something I have found out. I was refearing before to gathering node template. But as I was looking even that one isnt done for every zone/node. So that one would be also to do while we would be at it. Shall I begin ? Or should I wait for the decision of our Elder Admins ? --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Example for where gathering node template isn't used? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 21:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm really not crazy about the Node location being used the way it's being used. There's no notation if a node is festival or not and historical locations are getting nuked. Not to mention a lot of really helpful information is getting removed. This is kind of the reverse of helpful, DiegoDeLaHouska can you hold up please? - Doodleplex 00:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Every information is usefull to somebody. If to you usefull information is having location of rich nodes been writen on normal size node pages sure go ahead and write it everywhere. About nodes in home instances or "festival maps" that can be easily done by adding information in the template based on the zones and maps. One of the reasons why I didnt changed Dragon Pinatas or Candy nodes. Those might be a bitmore dofficult. Information how to farm these nodes or how to get to them should be on Node farm. The last is historical which Ive been trying to keep as Sime asked for. If I missed some and deleted it somewhere then Im sorry.. Ive just missed it. The last node I want to look at is Toxic Seedling then Im done anyway --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Seeing how "gathering node" turns out at the moment I am against implementatino of NPC location. —Kvothe (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

NPC location has |notes. You are more free with what you want to write there. Gathering nodes doesnt have that option so you cant really do much about it. The "template" even tho its just a list of nodes .. needs a bit more work. Im not against it even tho it looks aweful. The idea as whole is lovely just the way to get there could be better. But you need to start somewhere. It would need the note option so we could add text behind it with better description. We would need to change the template so it would be a bit more automatic. It would need to pick up every future reasorce nodes without anyone adding it into the template manualy. And me personaly .. I dont like having such a long list of zones. Mithril list is so long. Maybe hidding it somehow so players could just open it themselfs.. the specific region they are looking over. --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in Achievements[edit]

There has been some discussion on how the wiki handles achievements (in particular see "Handling achievements on wiki") and having gone through a vast number of achievements for a project, there are a lot of inconsistencies throughout. Here are some inconsistencies I've found so far (and I also propose some proposals on how to unify for some).

Inconsistency 1 - Linking[edit]

Taking a story journal achievement as an example, sometimes an achievement will link directly to the story journal and other times it will link directly to the achievements section of the story journal. For example, if we had the following achievement:

{{Achievement table row
| id = 5275
| name = Fast Purrsuit
| page = Turnabout
| description = End the pursuit within the time limit.
| flavor = Story Instance: Turnabout<br><br>Where do you think you're going?
| tiers = Ended the Pursuit within 40 Seconds;3
| effect = eligibility
| reward = Cache Key
| quantity = 3
}}

In some achievements the title "Fast Purrsuit" is linked to Turnabout whereas in other achievements it's linked to Turnabout#Achievements

After thinking about it, I think it should link directly to the achievement on the story journal page. In other words, it should go to Turnabout#achievement5275 as the user will generally click on the link of the achievement to find information for a particular achievement. And so it makes most sense to link directly there. This also addresses a second issue which I talk about next.

Inconsistency 2 - Hints/guides[edit]

Currently hints/guides are in one of 2 places. For most story journal achievements, these are found on the story journal page. In other cases it's listed at the bottom of the achievements page itself (see see Weapon Master as an example). As a user it's very confusing to know whether I should scroll to the bottom of the page for hints/guides or click on a title to get more information. (In some cases the information appears in both locations!)

My personal opinion is to have *all* guides be on their own page (or on the story journal page). This is in-line with what Eowin had said before, but with the slight difference that we don't necessarily need one for every achievement, but if there are any notes, guides, hints, pictures, ideas, etc, it should have its own page (again, other than cases such as story journal where it makes sense to group them together in a certain way). This also lines up with Inconsistency 1 by having us always link the title of an achievement to information on the achievement itself.

Inconsistency 3 - Story Journal Linking[edit]

I noticed that for story journal achievement boxes, the story instance itself was linked in the flavor text. Considering my suggestion in Inconsistency 1, I think it would make sense to add a link in the achievement box to the story journal itself. This would look like this:

{{Achievement table row
| id = 5275
| name = Fast Purrsuit
| page = Turnabout#achievement5275
| description = End the pursuit within the time limit.
| flavor = Story Instance: [[Turnabout]]<br><br>Where do you think you're going?
| tiers = Ended the Pursuit within 40 Seconds;3
| effect = eligibility
| reward = Cache Key
| quantity = 3
}}

Inconsistency 4 - Achievements and Walk-throughs[edit]

This is technically handled by the Story formatting guide.

Sometimes achievements are a part of the walkthrough and other times they are not. As examples Destroying Destroyers has achievements after walkthrough whereas Frozen Out has them contained inside. Personally I prefer having achievements inside the walkthrough as you are doing them during the instance, but I also understand making them their own thing. If there's no real preference, I'd suggest "inside" mainly because most of them are already like this.

Inconsistency 5 - Completion Achievements[edit]

On some story journal pages, the "Complete story journal" achievement is not present. (I've been adding them as I go along, so I can't think of one off the top of my head.)

Inconsistency 6 - Information on Achievements on Story Pages[edit]

As this is technically handled by Story formatting guide, I would like to propose we change this slightly to leave room for longer achievement guides. I propose the following:

=== Achievements ===
{{achievement box|<achievement name>}}
* <short guide for achievement>
<long guide for achievement>

to replace:

=== Achievements ===
{{achievement box|<achievement name>}}
* <guide for achievement>


The following is handled by Story formatting guide.

In some cases, information about an achievement appears in many different ways:

It's confusing to have the format change between different story journals. I would propose we have titles, keep bullets for quick info and we have text for more information. I propose titles as it helps differentiate the different achievements better in my opinion. I propose having a bullet under the box for *short* information (such as "Complete story journal."). I propose any guide/hint/advice that is longer than 1-2 sentences would not have bullets. Here is an example where I have the same thing duplicated twice to show what it would look visually.


Fast Purrsuit
This achievement rewards items. Fast Purrsuit No Quarter 3Achievement points
End the pursuit within the time limit.Story Instance: Turnabout

Where do you think you're going?
Reward: 3  Cache Key.png Cache Key
Ended the Pursuit within 40 Seconds 3Achievement points
  • Achievement qualification may be tracked via the eligibility: Fast Purrsuit effect.

If we want more of a guide, we would write it under here. And this guide would be epic, but also not tell the entire story because we want the users to enjoy doing the achievement themselves. But sometimes they need some help, so we help them because we are fun like that. We might even consider using spoilers?

Fast Purrsuit
This achievement rewards items. Fast Purrsuit No Quarter 3Achievement points
End the pursuit within the time limit.Story Instance: Turnabout

Where do you think you're going?
Reward: 3  Cache Key.png Cache Key
Ended the Pursuit within 40 Seconds 3Achievement points
  • Achievement qualification may be tracked via the eligibility: Fast Purrsuit effect.

If we want more of a guide, we would write it under here. And this guide would be epic, but also not tell the entire story because we want the users to enjoy doing the achievement themselves. But sometimes they need some help, so we help them because we are fun like that. We might even consider using spoilers?


Inconsistency 7 - Achievement Tables[edit]

In some achievement tables, the achievements are broken up by types. (see War Eternal (achievements))

  • Mastery achievements - those that count for mastery
  • Other - Anything else
  • Big groups - Things that are similar/chain together/etc.

In others, this is not the case (see The Head of the Snake (achievements) - the mastery requires 28 achievements, but there are 41 achievements altogether in the table).

  • Note that the examples given are just the first two I found. There are mixes of things everywhere in between.

Personally, I think it should just be one big table and if there are big groups/sections that chain together, they should have their own page as an "achievement guide". This continues to line up with the idea that you should link through a title to find more information about that particular achievement.

Inconsistency 8 - Event Achievement linking[edit]

This is similar to Inconsistency 1, but requires something a little different. For some achievements, the achievement is asasociated to an event. For example:

Mushroom Musterer Dragon's Stand Heart of Thorns mastery point 1Achievement points
Raise a mushroom army for the skritt.You helped grow the skritt a mushroom army! Raised Mushroom Army in Dragon's Stand 1Achievement points

Currently, if you click on the title you get sent to the page. The achievement itself is sometimes written as a "related achievement" on the bottom of the event. The title link will sometimes link to the event itself and at other times it will like to the "Related achievements" section at the bottom.

For this one I have less of a proposal as I really don't know how to handle it. When it does link to the "Related achievements" section, I find I must constantly scroll up to see what event it's even talking about. I think in these cases, we should link directly to the event rather than the achievement on the bottom. (What would be even better is if we can alter the achievement box so that the description links to the event, or we can add "related event" or something and then the title itself can link to the "Related achievements" as above, but I don't know how to do that).

I think that's pretty much all for now. Hopefully I didn't miss any, but I think it's at least a good start. I've had a few people state that looking through achievements on the wiki is a little troublesome and I'm hoping that by making things consistent, that it will be easier to navigate and find the information people want. --Thecaligarmo (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

As I said on discord, inconsistencies number 4 + 6 are "solved" in the Story formatting guideline, so the true inconsistency there is just people not following them. ~Sime 16:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
So for 4 and 6 I'll fix achievements as I go along. For those who want, the story formatting guidelines can be found here since it took me a while to find them. --Thecaligarmo (talk)
I just addded another inconsistency as I had forgotten one. Also, considering Sime's solution above, I'm altering #4 and #6 to state that these are basically "handled", in addition to submitting a request to change the guide for Story formatting for #6. --Thecaligarmo (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
#1 (Linking) - There's not a whole lot of difference here, between linking to #number and #name, but I suggest it links to [[<story journal episode>#<achievement name>|<achievement name>]]. There's no reason to link to the achievement id as each occurrence of {{achievement table row}} has a hidden anchor element to allow use of the name.
#2 (Hints/guides) - I don't feel very strongly about this one at all. I would really prefer not to have separate one-line achievement guides if we can avoid it.
#3 (Story Journal Linking) - yes I agree we should always link the story article if there's a newline stating "Story Instance:".
#4 (Achievements and Walk-throughs) - These are supposed to be using 3 header level per the formatting guide. We can probably bot-fix all of those. Stick a request on GW2W:BOTS please.
#5 (Completion Achievements) - I can do a check for these (maybe tomorrow) but yes they're supposed to be there.
#6 (Information on Achievements on Story Pages) - Since the template has the achievement name baked into it, it seems stupid to have the list the title out above the template. I don't like using bullets for the walkthroughs, and really hate a mixture of bullets and plaintext - I propose we use plain paragraph text for all achievement section guides. I think we should then consider increasing the margin between each occurrence of {{achievement table row}} (possibly 20px vs default 10px) to emphasise which guide goes with what achievement name. I can sandbox this if you want to see an example.
#7 (Achievement Tables) - I think I am probably the originator of splitting tables, where I started with All or Nothing (achievements) which ended up too split up for my liking. All achievement pages should just use one table in the majority of cases, with notable exceptions for extremely long collections (chasing tales, skyscales). Afaik this is how it's been done already and I can't immediately see an issue with a couple of pages being done slightly different.
#8 (Event Achievement linking) - This is really stupid if we're actually using the "page" parameter to identify a "useful" page, but then the target page doesn't have ANYTHING about the achievement except for see also. Please name and shame these articles. If you're using the "page" parameter, I expect to find either a walkthrough or some description of why the achievement is relevant. Just using the "see also" isn't enough. Since most event pages are allowed to have a walkthrough section, why not represent the information the same on event page as we do on story articles?
-Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

#1 (Linking) On story journals we use {{achievement box}} Do those have an anchor to the name too? If so, then I don't mind it being that instead.
#6 (Information on Achievements on Story Pages) That sounds like it could be a good alternative.
#7 (Achievement Tables) - It's not that big of an issue in the sense that you can ctrl+f any achievement. It does cause frustration though if you're expecting things in alphabetic order in the first table and suddenly it's not there because on this one page it's different.
#8 (Event Achievement linking) - I think usually in these cases it's something where the achievement is dependent on the event. So in the example above, it makes sense to link to the event because you won't get that achievement until you do the event. But to avoid one line guides, for event's it's normally listed in the bottom as "Related achievements". So for me it's not necessarily stupid as it is worthwile information. But it sounds more like you're suggesting just changing the format? So that we replicate what we're doing for story pages and use them for event pages? (Add a walk through section which contains an achievements subsection where we would put the {{achievement box}} information and link exactly like we do for story achievements?)

--Thecaligarmo (talk) 01:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

#1 (Linking) "| page = <story>#<achievement name>" works
#2 (Hints/guides) Added TOC so users should see right at the top, that there are more sections. This seems to be an edge case where every achievement would be linked to the same page, so I don't see the benefit of creating a separate page just to link all there when it can be below.
#3 (Story Journal Linking) Yes, page parameter makes sense - probably just overlooked sometimes.
#4 (Achievements and Walk-throughs) Prefer achievements to be split to thier section (like the current Story formatting guide)
#5 (Completion Achievements) yes
#6 (Information on Achievements on Story Pages) @Alex I guess you mean {{Achievement box}}, I am in favor of dropping the bullet point and using a plain paragraph instead - making it length independent.
#7 (Achievement Tables) The Head of the Snake (achievements) 41 total, you need 28, 39 count towards the meta achievement - maybe it would make sense to display the total number of objectives/collection items. Chasing Tales and Skyscale Collection I think are good to split off, for Jormag Rising (achievements) and No Quarter (achievements) I am not sure if it is really needed.
#8 (Event Achievement linking) Linking to Related achievements directly makes no sense to me, since normally there is no explaination to be found. (It is in place to make finding the achievement page from the event page easy.)
Kvothe (talk) 21:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
#1 (Linking) - Sounds like there is consensus on this and I'll stick to using those.
#2 (Hints/guides) I think Slayer is very similar to Weapon Master, and in Slayer we have a separate page which has a guide to all the achievements. Although we can put achievement guides on the bottom like on Weapon Master, I think it makes more sense to have a uniform way of doing things. So either we should always try and have achievement guides at the bottom of the achievement page for each section, or they should always be on some other page. The wiki is supposed to make finding information easier. Having to look in multiple places (Did wiki people put the info on the bottom of the page or on a different page?) makes things confusing. The whole point of me bringing these topics up is to help make things more consistent and not "all over the place".
#3 (Story journal linking) - Sounds like there is consensus on this and I'll update these as I see them.
#4 (Achievements and Walk-throughs) - This has already been completed
#5 (Completion Achievements) - Sounds like there is consensus on this and I'll update these as I see them (I think there are only a couple left now).
#6 (Information on Achievements on Story Pages) - Sounds like we'll just use a paragraph format from here on out? Chieftain Alex, did you end up sandboxing a new version? (Once that's done and we agree for format I can start working on updating pages to the new format. We'll also want to update the Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Story formatting page so that it is not showing a bullet after the achievement box)
#7 (Achievement Tables) - Sounds like there is consensus on this. I think War Eternal might be the only one that has an "Other Achievements" table. I'll integrate these tables into the main ones if I ever run across them.
#8 (Event Achievement linking) - Sounds like there is consensus in that the title should not be linking to the event, but we're ok with some other text within the achievement box linking to the event. (aka, the titles should only link to guides. Any other helpful links should be elsewhere.)
I probably won't make any changes until #2 and #6 as I want to go one achievement area at a time so I don't miss anything. So if I'm saying we have consensus to soon and/or if I'm wrong (I don't actually know how long we normally wait and/or what is required?) there's still time. --Thecaligarmo (talk) 19:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Regarding #8, the title should absolutely link to the event if it is an event related achievement. The page missing description how to obtain it is a different matter. ~Sime 20:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
#8 Rereading my comment I was not clear enough. I agree with Sime. Link to the event but not the "Related achievements" section. Use | page = <event page> not | page = <event page>#Related achievements. —Kvothe (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
#6 (Information on Achievements on Story Pages) - I forgot, but i've done it now. here you go: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=User%3AChieftain_Alex%2Fsandbox3&diff=2217397 --Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

(Reset indent) If I'm understanding Chieftan Alex, he'd prefer the titles not link to the event page? As an alternative, I'm saying to do something like the following: sandbox example. So the title itself doesn't link to the event, but we still link to the event in the description. Would that be ok or is the preference to keep it in the title? (Personally, I think moving it into description is better as then it keeps the idea of "title points to guide") --Thecaligarmo (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I like the formatting for the boxes Chieftan Alex =D It definitely helps show the text refers to the box above instead of below. --Thecaligarmo (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Description often has plenty of links so finding the correct one could take a bit/be confusing, so I still stand behind linking the event from the title. There hasn't been any problem with it in the past for hundreds of achievements and other articles to be linked, no reason it should be a problem now. ~Sime 21:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@Caligarmo, I don't think I suggested removing the page parameter or moving the links per se, I just think any page using the "page" parameter should at least mention the achievement or how to get it. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@Sime I'm ok with that. =) @Chieftain, I think a lot of the event achievements just link to the event without there being a guide nor any substantial mention of the achievement (other than a link back to all of the achievements) which is why I thought you suggested to remove the links. Sorry for the confusion ._. --Thecaligarmo (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I hope this edit removes some confusion: I removed the achievement title link overload from the {{achievement box}} and {{achievement list}}. Previously, the achievement title would link to the individual achievement page, if there exists one and if the template wasn't used on this page. This resulted in different template behaviours for one and the same achievement (with an individual page!), namely:
  • used on individual achievement page: the achievement title linked to the subobject anchor on the achievement category page.
  • used on any other page: the achievement title linked to the individual achievement page.
Hence, when starting e.g. on an item page in the section Acquisition, this resulted in the awkward link chain 1. individual achievement page -> 2. achievement subobject achievement category page to reach the achievement subobject rather than allowing the user to choose which page they want to access.
Now the achievement title always links to the achievement subobject, furthermore if an individual achievement page exists and the template is used on any other page (not the individual achievement page), then there will be a suffix (related page) that links to the related individual achievement page.
Note that I don't changed the behaviour of {{achievement table row}}, as in my opinion the linking there is straight forward.
I think this edit should somehow make the link usage more consistent. --Tolkyria (talk) 10:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I understand why you did it this way around, but as you said it is still inconsistent with "achievement table row". An option would be to have the achievement category link above the tier description link to the achievement id (on the category page). —Kvothe (talk) 15:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Hmm, and what if we add the (related page) link (could be renamed to related achievement page, etc...) in the same way to {{achievement table row}}, i.e. removing the link from the achievement title.
Or following your suggestion, remove the achievement title link if there is no individual achievement page and enhance the category link to the achievement subobject.
Otherwise idk, but this previous behaviour was so terrible in my opinion, e.g. landing (by clicking the link) on the top of individual achievement page where no achievement box is in sight and hence having no way to easily reach the achievement subobject on the achievement category page. --Tolkyria (talk) 16:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Whilst we're rearranging the achievement templates (applies to all of: achievement table row, achievement list and achievement box), how about removing the chest icon to the left of the achievement name? Whilst the chest icon is shown ingame when on the overview page, it does not also show the rewards below it too. Imo its an excess of icons to display the chest icon too. When you view the achievement detail panel, it does show the rewards and does not show the chest icon.
I'm also wondering if the achievement list + achievement box templates end up with too many links along the header of each achievement if we link the (1) named section of the category page, (2) related page + (3) category page separately. Could we unlink 1 (keep it as black plaintext), keep 2, and link (3) to the named section but keep its appearance too? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 20:59, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
@Tolkyria I agree the previous behavior felt inconsistent. I don't like the bloat that "(related page)" introduced. —Kvothe (talk) 21:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Given an achievement box on a random page, I think the wiki users should be able to access the following pages/entries directly (which I somehow tried to improve with my edit):
  1. the exact {{achievement table row}} entry on the achievement category page
  2. the individual achievement page (currently as accessed via "related page" link), providing some walkthrough information
  3. the achievement category, at least indicate in which achievement category the achievement is contained in
So I can't really see which of the three links could be removed. Sure, link 1 and link 3 end up on the same page (with link 1 having the suffix #achievement<id> and link 3 pointing at the top of the achievement category page), and thus the achievement title could link to the individual page only, otherwise plaintext (same behaviour as {{achievement table row}}). But is it obivous for wiki users that the achievement category on the right will link to the achievement entry (after adjusting it)? Also, this would remove the "(related page)" suffix, pleasing Kvothe, correctly stating that this is unnecessarily bloating the achievement box header.
Honestly, idk, in the end neither the previously used link overload, nor my "(related page)" suffix are appealing to me. --Tolkyria (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Chieftain Alex/sandbox2 - this is a visual representation of what I was talking about (no more links to the top of the achievement category page, just link to subobject, and a link to the achievement help page if it exists) -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 17:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Quoting myself from my last post: "But is it obivous for wiki users that the achievement category on the right will link to the achievement entry?" If we are able to answer this question with yes, then sure, go for it.
So you also removed the chest icon, indeed the main idea (linking to the rewarded item) isn't really applicable anymore since we now have multiple tier rewards and the popups are suppressing the hovering text. On the other hand, the chest icon, together with the title icon, allows the wiki users to quickly sum up the gained rewards without going into detail. Furthermore, you introduced one additional icon: the achievement catgory icon vs "Imo its an excess of icons to display the chest icon too". But I guess removing two icons while adding only one is still a reduction. --Tolkyria (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Actually I'd prefer if it didn't have a category icon, maybe I just misinterpreted what parameter 14 did in Template:Achievement box result format? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 19:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Since the relevant row on the achievement category page is exactly reproduced by the achievement list/box template anyway, is there any point in linking to that achievement's row on the category page at all? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 19:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
see this + found the cause. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 20:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Wow regarding the icon, broken all the time. So in your sandbox you actually restored the intended idea.
For {{achievement list|reward=<item>}} the category on the right is useful if the item is obtained from different achievements in different categories, e.g. Ascended Armor Chest. Having no link to the corresponding achievement category and hence not being able at all to quickly access the achievement entry feels super wierd to me.
I would like to add the link adjustment first, and then probably in a next step remove the icons (I'm not really convinced yet about the icon removal). --Tolkyria (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Apologies not sure if I've expressed myself clearly. I'm ok with having one link to the category page -I agree if theres multiple achievements listed then linking to the category is useful- just proposing that the link on the right goes to the category page anchor for the current achievement, and that the left bit either links to specific achievement advice OR goes nowhere and is plaintext. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 21:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Added your/our link suggestion. I think we all have somehow the same idea, but with all this different terms we might be confusing ourselfs. --Tolkyria (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Seems we were all on the same page. Really like the outcome at the moment. Not sure either about the achievement category icon - lets keep it for 2 week then decide? —Kvothe (talk) 23:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Given that nobody commented on it being missing for 2.3 years I will be very happy to remove the category icon again. Happy to wait a fortnight beforehand though.
Thanks Tolkyria for switching the link around.
I've gone ahead with the CSS to increase spacing between "Template:Achievement box" and blocks of text (either p or ul elements). -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
You wrote [[Template:Achievement list]] in the documentation instead of box, see here, you might want to fix it to not confuse us in the future. Or should template use this class?
Note that {{achievement box}} uses style="display:table" which removes some vertical space (margin:10px 0; set in .table) above and below the table while providing increased horizontal useability (properly handling infobox clashes which style="display:inline-box" wouldn't, if I'm correct). However, I'm not sure what to do with this information. --Tolkyria (talk) 23:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Just took a week - I'm in favor of removing the achievement category icon from box and list result format. —Kvothe (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Temporary watchlists?[edit]

I recently noticed that Wikipedia now has a temporary setting for watchlists, where you can choose to watch a page for 1 week / 1-3-6 months / permanently. Would it be feasible to introduce such a feature on this wiki? I feel like it would be helpful, so I wouldn't need to wrangle a watchlist of hundreds of pages, nor miss important updates made to my edits. -- kazerniel (talk | contribs) 16:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

See mw:Help:Watchlist#Watchlist Expiry. We have to wait until we get MW 1.35, see Special:Version for our current version (MW 1.34.4). --Tolkyria (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! -- kazerniel (talk | contribs) 16:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)