Template talk:Skill infobox/Archive 4

Lack of consistency in skill descriptions.

The skill Strike is under the skill type "chain". It's description is...
Chain. Strike your foe.
The skill Arcane Blast is under the skill type "arcane". It's description is...
Blast your foe with energy for critical damage.
In the first example above (as well as in almost all guardian chain skills), the skill description begins with the skill type ("Chain"). In the second example (as well as in almost all other skills), the skill description does not include the skill type ("arcane", "spirit weapon" or whatever), since skill type is described in the skill infobox anyway.
I believe it would be nice for us to pick one among those two formats, so all skills would be under the same formatting. Erasculio 02:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

On GuildWiki, we do not include the skill type in the description so that we don't duplicate information that's already in the infobox. On GWW, they do include the type in the description so that it perfectly matches the in-game description. I generally prefer presenting things exactly as they appear in-game, but this would be an exception - if the type is already in the infobox, then it's redundant to show it in the description as well. —Dr Ishmael 03:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Another point on description formatting: Do we need to include wiki links in the description for things that are automatically linked elsewhere in this template? See Reaper's Mark. Mark is linked in the infobox, and Fear is linked in the effect list immediately below the description. Is that necessary? —Dr Ishmael 00:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if I understand, but I would say yes it is required to show fear in the effect list since the skill doesnt state duration. As for main hand experience I tend to read the effect of a skill and wonder how long does it last, so having a section that mention the duration of said effect is important in my opinion.Tech Wolf-Talk 01:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm asking whether the word "Fear" in the skill description needs to be a link. The effect listed directly below the description automatically contains a link, so why does the description need to have one as well? It seems redundant. —Dr Ishmael 02:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh now I understand, well yeah it is redundant to have 2 link for it, but then if we remove the first link, we run into an inconsistence since we usualy use the first one to be the one that redirect, but if we remove the second one (I think it is possible but, I have no knowledge in coding) would require to rework the template, or maybe just add a way in the template to enable or disable a redirect. Also to return to what Erasculio said, It might be just me but I prefer to keep it on the format like Strike, mostly because 1) it is the description of the skill in the game 2) it is GWW2 template, why should we have 2 version(when I mean version I don't mean a second template but a modified one that allow on or off option for skill type) for a template because of some few(no idea of the amount) skill that show his skill type in the description. So to conclude, even if it is redundant I think it is better to keep both information.Tech Wolf-Talk 03:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem with removing the "redundant" links is how it changes the skill lists. In the lists themselves, we only see the skill description, not the effects. Therefore, removing the links from the description would effectively remove the links from the skill lists.

Personally, I like the format "Type. Description" more than just "Description", but whatever is chosen, I only want to have the same format for all skills. Erasculio 03:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm with you 100% on the need for consistency. But I'm also in favor of reducing redundancies. Skill type is listed in the infobox, why does it need to be in the description? On the other hand, maybe we don't need to list the type in the infobox? (Compared to GW1, a much higher percentage of skills don't have a specific type, so who knows, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.) I just want to avoid listing the exact same bit of info more than once within the same template. —Dr Ishmael 04:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

As much as I would prefer stating the type in the skill description, what gets me is, again, the skill lists. In the lists, the skills are grouped by type (see here for an example), so if the skill type were mentioned in the description, we would end with a skill list showing for example a "Glyph" section, and, within that section, skill descriptions would begin with "Glyph" as well. This is the kind of redundancy we really don't need. It may be better, after all, to just remove the skill type from the descriptions. Erasculio 04:34, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Directing to the skills' page

Hi, I've just changed a little thing, the name, e.g. Warrior, redirects to that profession skills' page, and the icon to that profession's page. It should help people have a way to "backtrack" to the profession skills' list much easier, of course you can just change it back if it turns out a bad thing. :) - 201.24.9.137 18:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Placement of text for description

I have a tiny suggestion. I would like to move the small text "in-game description" from the right to the left or center. As it is now, many descriptions are short at to the point, and the "in-game description"-text kind of gets lost way out there on the right (especially on wide screens, which are more and more common). So much whitespace, and it only adds confusion if anything :) - anja 20:10, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Left-aligned sounds good. Actually, I wouldn't mind if the main {{quotation}} template was modified that way too. (That said, I imagine it's quite clear where the skill description is coming from, particularly with the huge quotation marks... Perhaps we could just leave out "in-game description" from skill pages altogether.) pling 20:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that leaving it to the right, but changing block width from 100% of the screen to 100% of the content (by changing quotation block display property from block to inline-block + adding clear to the end) would work. It will look like this:

“

Random description text to show how it works.

— In-game description

“

A bigger chunk of text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

— In-game description

Alfa-R 20:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer a uniform location for it. Also, when looking for the source, after seeing your first example (the one-liner), my eyes go to the end of the last sentence for the second example - except the source isn't at the end of the sentence. pling 20:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Quotations are almost never used next to each other like that, so that shouldn't really be a problem. On the other hand, the Chicago Manual of style says that sources in block quotations should be given a separate line for poems only, for regular text they should be given in parenthesis right after the text, so quotes should look like this:

“

Random description text to show how it works. (In-game description)

“

A bigger chunk of text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. (In-game description)

Alfa-R 20:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Do we really need to have that "in-game description" notice in the skill articles, anyway? Using the quote template to indicate a source works in something like the profession pages, in which the source isn't obvious and in which it isn't perfectly clear what has been copied from an official source and what has been paraphrased by wiki authors. Skill descriptions don't really work that way. Erasculio 21:04, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Removing the text is a perfectly fine alternative too! But I liked the first proposal from Alfa-R, with the text following the text width - anja 20:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Skill formatting proposal

Since it's about the implementation of this template, it's best to point here as well that I have submited a proposal for a skill formatting article. Erasculio 21:10, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Combo field and combo finisher information

I think combo information (both field and finisher) should be kept in the skill infobox, as they used to be, as opposed to in the skill description as they are right now. They have been moved out of the infobox presumably since the game lists them among the other variables such as damage and range. However, we do not list all information exactly as the game does - for example, all utility skill descriptions begin with the skill type, but we have moved that information from there to the infobox itself. Likewise, I think we could move the combo information from the variables and to the infobox.
The variables we list under the skill description are usually numeric variables, and usually things that can change - the damage done by a skill depends of the character's stats, range may not necessarily change but it's still a numeric variable, and so on. In other hand, the skill infobox usually has text information, describing information that is more static and less likely to change, such as to which attunement or weapon a given skill belongs to. Considering the nature of the combo information (how it's static, and a text variable), I belive it would work better if grouped with similar information inside the infobox.
The code for this would be simple to add to this template, since it was there a few months ago. Erasculio 16:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

How would you handle e.g. Explosive Shot where there's a qualifier on the combo? —Dr Ishmael 16:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Combo | Field (projectile, 20%). This is the exception, rather than the rule, so I'm not that worried about it. Erasculio 16:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I never liked that old style, because it places the emphasis on "Field"/"Finisher", relegating the actual useful info (what kind of field/finisher) to a lower-case word in parentheses. If we go back to that, I'd like to see it changed to:

Combo field | Fire

Combo finisher | Projectile (20%)

—Dr Ishmael 16:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok. May also be useful if there is any skill that is a combo field and a combo finisher. Erasculio 17:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, skill variables should be kept in the skill variable section. Whatever we choose needs to work for everything, so dismissing exceptions doesn't work. Also, I too did not like the relegation of the actual field/finisher type to a subscript. Aqua (T|C) 18:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Instead of the full combo information in the infobox, might I suggest a clear indication (possibly in tango form) that a skill has a field or finisher effect? - Infinite - talk 18:19, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Where in the infobox would you place that? It doesn't fit in with the normal "label" | "value" pairs, so I'm not sure how well that would play out. —Dr Ishmael 18:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Alongside recharge and the rest of them tangos? - Infinite - talk 18:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) How many combo skills with a certain % chance to trigger combo there actually is? Two? And they're all recharge-less attacks, correct? I don't really see any reason to abandon including combos from infobox just because there's no pretty way of including that value for chance. Isn't that why they were removed from infobox in the first place? Mediggo 19:00, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Aqua, theorically skill recharge, skill attunement and all those other features are also skill variables, but they are not included in the skill variables section. My argument is that the combo information is closer to the variables described in the infobox (static, text-based variables) than to the characteristics described in the variables section (more flexible, number-based). Ishmael's suggestion above has dealt with the issue of not placing the actual field/finisher as a subscript, as well as with the percentage thing.

Although Infinite's idea could work, too. I do think it would work better as text under the infobox, but his idea has some merit. Erasculio 21:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Eras, by skill variables I mean things that appear after the skill description in the tooltip (i.e. conditions/boons/damage). Recharge is its own thing, and attunement is not explicitly referenced. Aqua (talk) 20:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Aqua on this one. It felt odd to me when the combo information was in the infobox, wheras in game, the information is listed alongside the variables list. I think keeping it synchronized with how the game displays the information makes it more intuative. --Thervold 21:57, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Probably "variables" is an unfortunate word choice, because, as Erasculio pointed out, it doesn't accurately apply to everything we currently place in |variables=, and it can also apply to other things in the infobox. I think a better way to think about it is to make a distinction between properties of the skill - things like profession, weapon, recharge, etc. that determine where/when/how you can activate the skill - and effects of the skill - the things that the skill does when activated and the things that signets/virtues do when passive. Properties belong in the infobox, while effects belong under the description as they are in-game. —Dr Ishmael 22:18, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

@Thervold: we are already documenting the skills differently from what they are seen in game. The in-game descriptions begin with the skill type; we have moved skill type to the infobox, away from the description.

@Ishmael: you have a nice point, but then again skill range has been left inside the variables section. By your definition, it's a property, not an effect. Erasculio 22:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

True. I think the real point we need to realize is that there's no "perfect" way to describe and organize this info. Thus, I say we just follow the conventions established by Anet with the in-game tooltips on what goes under the description. —Dr Ishmael 01:38, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Remove type from infobox and add it to skill description, then? Erasculio 01:45, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Movement cancel

Should we put any information related to movement cancelling the full activation of a skill like meteor shower, barrage etc in the infobox? Or maybe it's something that can go to a notes section on the skill pages? As far as I can remember, that information wasn't in the tool tip in-game. --Lania 21:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

If it's not given by the in-game tooltip, it should go under Notes, IMO. —Dr Ishmael 22:09, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

By full activation, I suppose you mean channeled skills? It should be noted if they can be used while moving or if movement stops channeling of the skill. I think canceling any skill with activation type, other than channeled, will instead make it go on a short recharge, as if having its activation interrupted. Channeled skills that are fully activated and "enter channeling" go to full recharge if interrupted, right? Mediggo 06:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, meteor shower and related skills aren't channeled skills. Meteors will start falling as soon as casting begins, but unless it is casted fully, the meteor shower stops shortly after. Canceling in mid cast does cause it to have a short recharge instead of a full recharge. But yeah, I'm not sure about channeled skills since all of the ones I've encountered can be used while moving, and cancelling it by using a roll dodge doesn't seem to make it recharge faster, but I could be remembering wrong. --Lania 19:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Environment weapons slot icons

Might be useful to have the skill slot icons display for environment weapon skills. -- Nineaxis (talk) 03:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd been thinking the same thing, and not just for environment weapons, but also for transforms and downed/drowning skills. So I moved the {weapon-slot} logic outside of the massive {slot} switch so it can be utilized by any skill type/context. Seems to be working - e.g. Electrified Tornado. —Dr Ishmael 04:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Category for skills with punctuation

I'm looking at Category:Shout skills and think that it would be great if the template can index them by the first letter rather than by the double-quote. No? -- ab.er.rant 05:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Done. —Dr Ishmael 13:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

#replace - nice! Didn't realise that exists. One wrinkle though, there's this Save Yourselves, which is an obsolete skill but used to be categorised in the same category. I suppose it's actually a nice side effect to be able to exclude it from the category. Oh, you're actually aware of it already :D -- ab.er.rant 14:05, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I checked the category to see what was all there before deciding how to update the template. :) That was the only one without quotes, and since it was historical, I just gave it the boot. —Dr Ishmael 14:28, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

A splash of colour is needed, perhaps?

It's difficult to tell what profession the skill belongs to at a fleeting glance. Admittedly this is a bit of personal preference because I like pretty colours, but also because I preferred the previous infoboxes, they had more... info and looked nicer. But, in my opinion, the colour is needed. The pages look a lot more drab than they did before the change. ~ ♥ Kailani! ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ 08:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

That was because the template wasn't updated yet. Should look as intended now. Alfa-R 08:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be great if the vertical line (here and in trait infobox) matched its colour to the header background just like in other infoboxes. 09:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but that was harder to do for infoboxes, unfortunately. May be in a next update. Alfa-R 09:31, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that's much better now. Thank you! :D ~ ♥ Kailani! ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ 12:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Tooltips/popups?

Does this wiki support tooltip popups? Would there be some way to install MediaWiki's tooltip extension so we could get previews similar to those we see in game? --Kaleden 18:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Separate parameters for passive and active effects

I suggest creating separate parameters for passive and active effects for signets (and potentially virtues as well), e.g. a parameter passive description, with which description would be treated as active (which it is for other skills anyway). This would help better automated formatting, especially on the Signet page, where all descriptions are filled in manually so far. 12:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Underwater parameter for h/uuu/e?

I noticed that on a quick search we aren't actually documenting which healing/utility/elite skills can/cannot be used under water. I thought the skill not being available or being replaced with something else could be a thing for the infobox, for example underwater = no adds a notice it is blocked, and underwater = Summon Something Something displays the replacement skill (if those still exist, I thought the necromancer had something) --zeeZ (talk) 14:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we need something for this. I was thinking more of a terrain parameter, where the values are land, water, or both. There are very few skills that have an aquatic counterpart - Rifle Turret, Tornado, and Life Blast are the only ones I know of - so I don't think that would be useful to have in the infobox at this time. —Dr Ishmael 15:17, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

So put that info in Trivia section, simpler. – Valento ^msg 21:49, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with adding such a parameter and displaying the "unusable underwater" icon that has been added in BWE3 in the infoboxes and skill lists. While I think that adding the underwater replacements to the infobox may not be the best idea, if we hide that information in the Notes/Trivia section, only those who already know the skill does that will notice it there; we could perhaps add this directly below the description (with the skill icon, to attract even more attention) or above it, similar to the disambiguation links. 13:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's the icon: . My template-fu is still inferior. Add the icon next to the skill icon at the top, and a notice text at the bottom of the box? --zeeZ (talk) 13:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The icon displays next to the recharge icon in-game, so I placed it in that section of the infobox. I imitated {{otheruses}} for the notice about the skill that replaces/is replaced. See Tornado / Whirlpool for how this works.

I'm thinking that notice would look better if it were formatted more like gw1:Template:Pvpversion, but I lack any style-foo to make it look good. —Dr Ishmael 14:42, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It would be perfect if we also had a simple water droplet icon without the red cross to display for skills like Whirlpool or Dark Water. 19:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Linking the icon to somewhere useful

Hey, I've had an idea, what do you think of linking the underwater icon to a section (say "Unavailable skills") in Underwater mode page listing all skills that are not available underwater? You could use DPL in that section to gather the skills which can't be used underwater or write them down directly. Thoughts? – Valento ^msg 19:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe a DPL expert can even create the automated list to show skills that have a replacement underwater, and maybe displaying this info in a table. – Valento ^msg 19:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that might be better left to the individual profession lists. A unified list of all professions would be too big, IMO. However, your first suggestion of linking the icon is good - the section will require an update to explain the icon, of course. —Dr Ishmael 16:42, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I see, seems perfect and simple. – Valento ^msg 18:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

ground-targeted skills

We need to add something for skills that are ground-targeted. I've compiled a mostly-complete list at User:Dr ishmael/ground-targeted skills, and there are 4 types: circle (most of them), line (Line of Warding, Flamewall), arc (Frost Fan), and vector (Whirlwind Attack).

What should we name the parameter for this? I can't think of anything that isn't clunky, but maybe we'll have to live with that. —Dr Ishmael 15:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

'Targeting' would be short and simple. Or what are you speaking of exactly?

Edit: Or 'Targeting Type'... like 'Activation Type'. Gnarf 15:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Since all ground-target skills are AoE skills, maybe just area of effect? Like what is now outdated on the area of effect article. - Infinite - talk 15:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

EDIT:Or "area" for simplicity. - Infinite - talk 15:56, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

But a vector is not an area. Neither is a line, really. Also, there are point-blank AoE skills (either self- or target-based) that aren't ground-targeted. —Dr Ishmael 16:00, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Simply 'Ground-targeted'? Gnarf 16:07, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess we need to decide both the input parameter to the template:

{{skill infobox
| blah = bler
| ground-target = circle
}{

And the label that actually gets displayed in the infobox. I'll be fine with whatever, I just don't like having to be the one that picks between multiple clunky choices. —Dr Ishmael 16:09, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's not important what shape the targeting has. Line, Circle, whatever... To me, the important thing is an indication how a skill is targeted. Ground-targeted, target enemy, target self, melee ... Gnarf 16:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Are there any line skills that aren't AoE, though? All offense-oriented skills deal damage in the areas on and above the line, and the ward blocks targets in an area on and above the line. Veil of Invisibility and Spectral Wall inflict their effects on and above the line. The z-axis makes line-target skills vertical AoE skills. Essentially all target skills are AoE, just not horizontally (except melee line skills). - Infinite - talk 16:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Hum, so mix Gnarf's idea with Ishmael's, a parameter to define how the skill is targetted, and in case of ground-targetted the ground-target parameter would have to be specified; I'm just not comfortable with adding another label to the skill box, that "properties" list should stop growing, maybe represent these two info through icons? – Valento ^msg 22:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

If we do that and make a general target parameter, then why would we need a second parameter? Just let the values be "ground circle" and "ground line" etc.

This infobox is in no danger of being "too long," just look at some of them on Wikipedia - the country infobox takes up 2 full screens at 1080p resolution. —Dr Ishmael 22:34, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I meant who/what it's targeted to (ground-targeted, target enemy, self-target, melee, etc) as Gnarf mentioned above. Btw, that's a pretty long infobox! :O – Valento ^msg 22:49, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Never mind, I got it now. – Valento ^msg 22:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. But to decide that, we need a preview first. Gnarf 08:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I had inspiration about this last night - just add "ground-target" as a possible value for activ-type. Because that's what it is, isn't it? It's a type of skill activation. Then we add ground-type to describe the shape of the ground target. —Dr Ishmael 15:22, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Have you already checked if there might be conflicts with this? (i.e. a ground-targeted skill that has another activ-type) – Valento ^msg 05:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Sooo... is there any decision on this? It would be valuable to know at least whether it's ground-targetted or not, someone could make use of such a parameter (*cough cough*). :) – Valento ^msg 19:34, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I will look into this when I have time, is anyone interested in going on with the discussion? – Valento ^msg 21:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe if you start a new section instead of revisiting a 2 year old section.--Relyk ~ talk < 16:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Tool belt and racial skills

Racial skills now have tool belt skills for engineers. Can someone please edit the template to allow the tool belt link to appear for racial skill infoboxes. •••Mora 19:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Standing still while casting

While most of the skills can be casted while moving, there are some which require you to stand still. Instead of flooding the notes section, would it be a good idea to implement that to the skill infobox? Not for every skill of course, but for those who actually require it. Gnarf 10:20, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how we could indicate that in a clear and simple fashion. It would have to be text, in which case I'd rather leave it to the notes. —Dr Ishmael 14:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

"Maintenance: Standing still" - wouldn't that fit? Gnarf 14:50, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

"Maintenance" is not a known term, there's no icon for this mechanic, and it only applies to a small number of skills. —Dr Ishmael 16:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I would go with Activ. type: Stationary, or rather Stationary, channeled since most, if not all, such skills are both. 22:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Shelter, Symbol of Protection (needs confirmation), and such. — Gnarf ~ El Psy Congroo ~ 22:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I was rooted by some Guardian skills too. I thought this was a bug not a feature since the skill description gives no hint that this would happen. - Yandere 22:06, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd argue that Shelter is channeled as well due to the blocking; nevertheless, the exact wording would of course depend on the skill in question. 22:09, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I think Noxx's suggestion to put it in the Activ. type-part of the infobox is very good. It could be represented with an icon, like a red cross over a boot or something. (Together with text, of course). - anja 07:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I would be wary of creating new icons to signify certain things. It could end up confusing when these icons don't exist in game. I am slightly torn though as if we improve our documentation it may encourage Arenanet to improve their in-game documentation. Such a thing may even be implemented between now and release, so while we can think about a good way of indicating this on skill pages/in the infobox, we should probably hold off doing things like creating symbols for it at least until the game has actually been released. Misery 09:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

The sequence section

At the moment I believe that the sequence section of skill pages suffers the same problem that weapon pages suffered from previously. Namely that the information is all available, but not particularly accessible. You can see that Chop chains to Double Chop and then to Triple Chop, but not what that actually means. For Chop it isn't that important, but for Ether Bolt it is actually pretty important to know that the third skill in the chain summons a clone.

I would like to remedy this if possible, but I don't know if it should actually involve a change to the skill infobox, or if something should be added to the end of these pages, such as the two possible examples here. Please note that my verbose skill box is a work in progress and is here only for demonstrative purposes. I prefer the first option in this instance as the second is really much too large and not really what I was making that skill box for. Thoughts? Misery 10:16, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I think your changes, if I understand them correctly, are either too big or too small. I believe that listing partial information on all linked skills on each skill's page, wherever would that be, is rather pointless — this is already done in skill lists or weapon pages, which are made for simple overview of the skills. On the individual skill pages the information should either be completely separated or fully merged.

We are currently doing it the first way and if I would have one suggestion for improvement, we should somehow highlight the current skill's icon in the sequence line in the infobox, so that you don't need to compare the icons to see it's, say, the second skill of three. The alternative solution would be to have all two or three skills on the same page, with descriptions, effects, infoboxes, notes and all that, and then redirect the other skills' names to that one page (that's the way the German GW2W does it). 13:42, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll make the same argument here that I made for the weapon pages. I think it is much more intuitive to find out everything that a skill does on its skill page, including what it turns into when you use it, than to go to a list of all the skills to find out what a specific chain does. Why are we forcing people to look for information in a very specific way? At the moment going to Ether Bolt would require two more pages to be visited to understand fully what that skill does, assuming someone even knows to check for a chain. I'm not opposed to the German wiki approach in principle, but it makes it much more difficult to access information from the individual skills as is done on our lists of skills based on profession. Perhaps it would be sufficient to include the skill infobox portion of subsequent chain skills on the parent skill using includonly tags, leaving the two chain skill pages exactly as they are now. Misery 13:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Forms, conjures and device kits: Child skills

I would like to propose an addition to this template. Five variables child1-5. These would contain the skills that these various kinds of skills "turn in to" upon activation. This would allow lists of child skills to be generated simply by referring to the skill infobox of the parent skill such as I have done for a chain skill in the second example here. If done properly this could also be used for environmental weapons as well to automatically generate such lists as exist on some of these skill pages already either by expanding this skill infobox to do that or through the use of a second template.

I would prefer the latter as I feel this template is already complex enough and this section would not be required on a majority of pages. It would majorly simplify the documentation of these kinds of skills as all that would have to be done is the child skills would have to be entered into the template and then all these lists (such as currently visible on Conjure Lightning Hammer) could be generated automatically. Sorry for opening yet another discussion on this page, but the section above lead to me thinking about this. Misery 12:29, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you're thinking about this backwards. We already have the child skills listing the parent skill, and EW skills listing the EW. There's no need to list them both ways. While DPL can't sort them properly by slot, unfortunately, SMW will be able to do that, and more. Besides, all of the skills you mention already have a perfectly-functional table of their child skills anyway, so what's the need for this change? —Dr Ishmael 12:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

All the skills I mentioned do, but Category:Environmental_weapons contains many that do not and is likely to grow after release. Also the existing tables are not always formatted consistently. I was trying to think about how to approach this problem from the other side using the parent skill and I got sort of stuck. I may be doing it wrong, but wouldn't you have to go through every single skill (usually these skills do not have a common category and maybe this is actually the problem) and look at the parent skill, check if they match the parent skill in question, then populate the list in that way. This seems incredibly inefficient. If you know of a better way of doing this, please let me know. This feature would also be incredibly useful if anyone else wishes to use our data for their own applications, such as a site that has roll-over descriptions for skills, with the skill descriptions taken from this wiki. If they wanted a rollover to show not just the parent skill but also the children, this would simplify things greatly. I'm more than prepared to accept that there is a better way of doing this and eager to hear what it is if it exists. It may be true that SMW will address all these problems elegantly, but I am only just getting to grips with DPL, so you will have to forgive me if that goes over my head for now, but it also isn't installed yet. Misery 13:43, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Slot and activity

The template needs to be explained more or more examples given.

I added Member of the Kennel and that has 5 skills. It's a form effect specifically for a heart I couldn't figure out whether "slot" is needed and what value to put in. Is it @weapon@? @environmental@, or @utility@? Or none?

Had trouble with "activity" as well. The explanation of wasn't really helpful. This parameter auto-categorises but none of the values I've tried (heart, event, name of the heart, etc.) had existing categories. Examples of the possible/planned-for values are needed. -- ab.er.rant 01:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Cast Times

So maybe I'm just slow and didn't notice this before, but as of build 15,674 it looks like there are cast times listed on skills now. ~ Capric 02:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

If so, that is brand-spanking-new, but we definitely need to document it. Downloading the update right now, and once I verify it and find the icon, I'll update the infobox for it.

Oooooh, what about the skill list pages? I bet people are gonna want it there, too. There really isn't much extra room to work with in the row templates. Oh boy. —Dr Ishmael 02:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Yep, spiffaroonie. Or something. Here's the icon, infobox is updated... time to go into documentation mode! —Dr Ishmael 03:08, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Durrr.. I'm sure this is probably documented somewhere, but what's proper way to write fractions for cast times etc? Right now I'm presuming to use ascii codes, eg ¼ ½ ¾. Should those be used or is there some special thing for them? Or should decimals just be used? ~ Capric 03:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Addendum: I figured it out. For others, it's ¼ ½ ¾ (See edit since I'm not clever enough to disable formatting) ~ Capric 03:29, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Either of those formats has the same resulting display - the & notation is simply a shortcut for people who don't want to spend the time finding the actual characters to copy or the ascii codes to use. :P I'm actually planning on putting some parser code into the template to transform decimals into the fraction characters - that way no one has to know either of those formats, and it makes SMW happy too (activation/recharge can be stored as number properties instead of string, which makes them a lot more useful for queries). —Dr Ishmael 04:17, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Huh, okay. I saw that they displayed identically, but I thought there was some other benefit to using the &frac style (since it looked like that's what you were using). But I'm inferring that right now it's pretty much a wash for which one to use. Anyway, that decimal conversion will be pretty cool. Though personally I would be just as happy with plain old unconverted decimals :) ~ Capric 06:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:Fraction now exists to do this conversion. I'll do some runs with AWB this afternoon to "correct" the various formats (¼, &frac14;, and {{1/4}}) that have been used so far. —Dr Ishmael 18:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

More examples, please

Would it be possible to provide more examples when using the infobox on the different types of skills? I'm guessing some parameters would conflict with each other (or at least be meaningless if used together). Why not make individual infoboxes for each type of skill, derived from these? Something like a sub-class for each possible type of skill? --Alad 05:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The infobox will be redesigned for implementing SMW, which should smooth out many of the conflicting parameters. That won't be for awhile.--Relyk ~ talk > 09:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

This template badly needs an overhaul, but Relyk's right, I've been waiting for additional SMW features (for almost a year now) before doing anything. Still, we can at least start discussing how the new version should work. I'll see if I can find the proposal I'd worked up last summer and post it on the CP.

In the meantime, what specifically do you think are conflicting? And what are the "types" of skills you're thinking of? —Dr Ishmael 12:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I had the feeling when working on Throw Crystal Shard yesterday, for instance, that putting "type=Stolen skill" towards the beginning or the end seems to matter (it seemed to override environmental weapon if put up front, but ok to put at the end. Just figuring out what to put there for environmental skills wasn't obvious, either (slot= twohand=). There are lots of things covered there and one would need to somewhat of an expert of this infobox to know what's needed and what isn't. "Slot=environmental" isn't very intuitive, for example. Mainhand/offhand/twohand are obviously not meant to be used together, I think. Toolbelt= and parent= seem almost the same thing to me (I don't have an engineer yet). And ALL the parameters can't really be optional as stated, can they? So I guess if you take every "type" of skill and make one example it would be a great help! Thanks :) --Alad 17:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

“putting "type=Stolen skill" towards the beginning or the end seems to matter” – I can assure you that this cannot be the case due to how MediaWiki works. poke | talk 19:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That's the big problem, actually - the ambiguity of what things mean. "type" should be limited to explicit skill types that are identified in-game (Trap, Glamour, Elixir, etc.); "Stolen skill" is not a skill type.

I can't find the document I'd written up about overhauling this infobox, unfortunately. But that's okay, it'll probably be better to start from scratch with new people's ideas anyway. —Dr Ishmael 19:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Bundle, tonic, activity, toys, and stolen skills can overlap parameters with profession skills or each other. I've made my own changes to the infobox so we can address them at all, but was never happy with it.--Relyk ~ talk > 22:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I struggled for a long time to create new skill pages for the Steam Creature Transformation, and to create the table of skills. Not at all easy. Could someone take a look at these skills and correct any mistakes in the infobox? (In particular why the slot number doesn't appear.) Thanks! --Alad (talk) 03:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

It wasn’t working because the parameter name is “weapon-slot” (with a dash). Yay, consistency…! :/ poke | talk 09:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

We're going to change that to "slot" I think. Don't know how ishmael wants to set the Has skill context property.--Relyk ~ talk > 12:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks poke. I copied the infobox from the (wrong) "example" at the bottom. Isn't "slot" already misused? :D --Alad (talk) 14:17, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, slot is horribly misused in this infobox, and it was really the primary thing I wanted to change when I started editing here a year ago - it should be called context or something like that, because we use it to describe the "how/when/why" of the skill actually appearing in your skillbar. Unfortunately, some of my ideas for fixing this infobox required #arraymap, and we only just got that last week. Now, of course, I can't find the notes I'd compiled, so we'll have to start over from scratch. —Dr Ishmael 14:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Here are ideas: Think of it as a relational database. A skill belongs to a parent. It doesn't reference the parent, the parent (weapon) lists which skills it provides and in which slot they appear. A parent is a skill provider. A skill provider is anything that makes skills available: a weapon, a bundle, a transformation, a pet. Skill slots can be defined by a short code: W1-W5, H, U1-U3, E, RP (ranger pet slot), D1-4 (downed), V1-V3 (virtues) etc... The provider lists its skills as: Skill1=<skill name>,<slot code>. This gives the flexibility of several providers using the same skill (like Return) but in different slots.

A skill has:

• unique name
• icon
• description
• image or video animation
• effects
• timings (activation, channel, animation, aftercast, recharge)
• following skill (in chain)

Skill Provider examples: WarriorMainhandSword, WarriorOffhandSword, WarriorDownedState, SalamanderOnLand, SalamanderUnderwater, GuardianClass (for virtue skills, utility,...), NornRace (for racial skills), ...

A skill provider has:

• unique name
• icon
• description
• image or video animation
• effects (stats bonuses, transformations, ...)
• timings (e.g. duration for volatile providers like some bundles, perhaps swap limitations, shared cooldown timer for its skills, ...)
• slot used by provider (weapon slot main/off/both hand, hidden bundle slot, hidden downed slot, hidden pet slot, hidden class slot, hidden race slot,...) (note that this also determines the "type" eg. weapon, bundle, pet, downed, racial,... and "type" text can be displayed in the infobox)
• skills provided and their slot positions (<skill unique name>,<slot code>; <skill unique name>,<slot code>; ...)

I am certainly forgetting things, but it's the general idea. --Alad (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

“Think of it as a relational database” – While SMW sometimes makes it look similar, a wiki is still not a database. And what you think of here is definitely overengineered for a wiki. poke | talk 01:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

You're compressing too many things into your "skill provider" idea: profession, race, context (weapon/utility/pet/downed/etc.), weapon (including bundles)... these are all properties that need to be identified individually, not collectively. As poke points out, the wiki is not a database, and we can't just join table A to table B to make a nice happy family. —Dr Ishmael 02:41, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Go look at Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Semantic MediaWiki/Skills alad. Should give you a good idea how we would query for certain skills using SMW :)--Relyk ~ talk > 02:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

It's true that I don't know much about wiki's possibilities. Many web sites use database engines, perhaps you could too; but I guess it would be much work to start over. The idea is to simplify by not putting properties into the skills, which really belong to its parent, the provider. The provider is just a part or function of something bigger, which provides skills. A weapon, a bundle, a class or race, etc... are not just providers of skills, but have such a provider object in them. I guess I'm thinking in terms of OOP, again, and not in terms of wiki. But the concept is correct, imo. Whatever you guys do, I'm hoping the end result will be a proper dialog box user interface with drop-down lists, checkboxes, edit fields, etc... that the user (perhaps not all users) fills in to create a new infobox of anything, without having to know anything about the property names or possible value names etc... and especially not having to type those things manually. It's just my hope. Ideally, though, ArenaNet will give this wiki the possibility to directly query the game data and create or update it automatically when it changes. The can write a little server-side interface and limit it to whatever they want, if that's the issue. :) --Alad (talk) 04:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Here, have an interface. The only skill it actually works for is Boil, unfortunately - it's been a year and a day since I worked on that form, and I never standardized all the skill pages to work properly with it. —Dr Ishmael 06:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I get an empty page. Sorry I didn't try to create a page :) Looks very nice, Ishmael! That would be a great step ahead if it were generalized to all infoboxes (indeed, all pages, since you could at least pre-create the relevant sections as well, and maybe even fill out some of them). --Alad (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a wiki is still a wiki, and being a wiki its main resource are still article texts, which you edit manually to change the content. And even if SMW does a great amount of magic here to get these forms, this will only work with things that use SMW a lot. So no, this won’t work for normal articles, but only for specialized templates like infoboxes. poke | talk 09:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

You're exactly right, poke - a form represents a semantic template. Everything outside of the template goes into the "Free text" area below (you can see this on Magma Orb now). Any page without an infobox or similar page-defining template doesn't need a form.

However, you can "pre-create the relevant sections" for a page with a preload template. This even works for the free text in Semantic Forms. —Dr Ishmael 12:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

overhaul, phase 1

Since I seem to have hidden my full notes on overhauling this template somewhere that even I can't find them, let's take this one step at a time. The first change we should make is to fix some of the parameter names.

• slot is the worst offender, as the name has very little connection with what it represents anymore. I propose renaming this to context, since the usage is to describe how/when/why a skill appears on your skill bar. Is it linked to a weapon you have equipped? Is it a healing or elite skill? Is it a pet skill? Is it part of a transform skill bar? We don't use that last one, but we should - I have a number of ideas for reworking the values of this parameter, but that can come later.
• mainhand/offhand/twohand are redundant. There's no need to specify e.g. "Main-hand Axe" or "Off-hand Sword" on the "Weapon" entry, the handedness is directly related to the slot number of the skill, which we display with an image. These three parameters should be combined into a single weapon parameter.
  • offhand is of course necessary for dual wield skills, but that's the only place it should be used.
• weapon-slot is inaccurate since we also use it for slots 6-0. With slot being renamed to context, this one can be renamed to slot.
• variables is also inaccurate because a lot of the effects described never change (damage and boons/conditions are the only true "variable" effects). This should be renamed to facts to match ArenaNet's in-house terminology (cf. game update notes).

It's feedback time. —Dr Ishmael 15:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Regarding the offhand for dual wielding skills, we shouldn’t use just “offhand” then though, as it would imply that there are things like “mainhand” as well. Maybe a very verbose “dual wield offhand”?

“This should be renamed to facts to match ArenaNet's in-house terminology” – Do you have an example for that? I apparently missed that. poke | talk 16:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Game updates/2013-04-30 uses the term "skill fact" 19 times (as well as a single use of "damage fact"), Game updates/2012-12-14 has it 12 times; Jan/Feb/March had it a few times each. References to a source file named "SkillFact.cpp" can also be found within the executable code. —Dr Ishmael 17:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I was a fan off "skill effect"--Relyk ~ talk > 17:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"Fact" is shorter. :P And some things like range/radius aren't effects. —Dr Ishmael 18:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

About offhand, would with offhand be verbose enough? That's the term used in the Hero panel (actually "With Off-Hand" but we don't need that hyphenated titlecase silliness). —Dr Ishmael 18:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Works for me. poke | talk 22:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Good to see you starting it. What is the final objective? I mean, "phase 1" implies the final objective is defined, and so are the intermediate steps to get there. I think a lot of cleaning up in the final result is necessary, even a restructuring, so it would be nice to hear your plan for it. How much info do you intend to leave in that infobox? In the meantime, here are some ideas:

• Parameter names can help a lot if they're explicit. Single words can be confusing.
• Dual wield skills apply only to slot 3 for the thief's 1-handed weapons (dagger, sword and pistol). Also, "dual wield" happens to be the type of those skills (except for the "off hand light" case, for some strange reason, possibly a bug). Is that enough to identify them without having an extra parameter?
• I would propose "skill source" rather than "context" which is a bit vague.
• One of the major problems I was having was with the huge number of parameters. I found myself thinking: does this one need filling in? If within technical feasibility, the "skill source" entry can contain more than one piece of data such as no other special-case parameter is necessary. For example, you can eliminate: Profession, Race, pet, skill point, attunement, tier, etc... which mostly only apply "if" the skill is of a certain type, and define with examples how the data for each type of skill should be entered on one line in the source parameter. This would aid a lot I think. This is being done with effects right now (more than one on a line), but I don't know if you can then query to generate lists. "SkillSourceXYZ infoboxes" maybe?
• "skill facts", "skill parameters", "skill effects", all sound fine. --Alad (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't have a "final plan" because I can't find my notes on it, didn't you read?

Parameter names: Single-word names are only confusing if they are ambiguous, there's nothing wrong with unambiguous single-word names. Was there a particular parameter that is confusing to you?

Dual wield: The "extra" parameter is necessary, because how else do you identify which offhand weapon gives that skill?

"Skill source": That sounds just as vague as context to me, and there are cases where it's worse. Weapon skills, for instance - the source of the skill is both the weapon and the profession (and for elementalists, the current attument). Since we already define profession (and attunement) separately, context = weapon makes a lot more sense.

Multi-valued "skill source": Nononononononononono. We're not programming in Javascript or C# here, we're writing a wiki template. You can't just throw arbitrary values together into a single parameter and expect things to work. Besides, isn't that more confusing? This parameter takes multiple values, but what values are they? How many should I include? Does X go in here, or should it be in a different parameter? Having a lot of parameters is not a weakness of a template, it's actually a strength, because it means the data coming into the template is very well-qualified and the template will know exactly what to do with each piece of data. (Multi-valued parameters are fine when they take in a list of like items, what you suggested there is a combination of many unlike items.) —Dr Ishmael 04:48, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Isn't "Template:Skill infobox/effects" a compilation of unlike items which is used for a wide range of different effets? Skill sources are a lot less numerous, and given syntax rules with examples, it could be a lot clearer, not having to worry about any other parameter. I have no idea if that's technically possible with wiki, though. Let me take an example or two to clarify my meaning:

• context = {{SkillSource | elementalist | utility | 3}} -- (utility skill of ele, costing 3 skill points)
• context = {{SkillSource | elementalist | dagger | fire | 2}} -- (elementalist dagger skill from slot 2 while in fire attunement)
• context = {{SkillSource | sylvari | healing | 3}} -- (sylvari healing skill costing 3 skill points)
• context = {{SkillSource | bundle | Smoke Bomb | 1}} -- (Smoke Bomb bundle skill in slot 1)
• context = {{SkillSource | thief | sword | 3 | dagger}} -- (thief sword's dual skill with a dagger in the off hand)
• just ideas, maybe not realizable. --Alad (talk) 05:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

It might seem simple if you omit half the information in the examples, but you would still have a similar number of parameters to named parameters if you included all the information.--Relyk ~ talk > 05:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Well as you can suspect, I didn't intentionally omit anything, they're just examples. Whatever number of parameters are required on that line, IMO it would still be easier for someone to fill them in, given an example, and knowing that's all they have to fill in practically (no worrying about other parameters that work for specific cases). NB: Of course it would probably be as easy for the user if things remained as they are right now with all the parameters, but with examples of every kind of skill spelled out as was nicely done for the Template:Skill infobox/effects page. A lot less work for you guys. :) --Alad (talk) 06:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to add examples to skill infobox.--Relyk ~ talk > 07:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The one to do it should know what they're doing. I guess it's neither you nor me, then. --Alad (talk) 08:53, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I don’t think context = {{tl|SkillSource | elementalist | utility | 3}} is easier than a profession = elementalist | type = utility | skill cost = 3. SkillSource seems to be a magic template that randomly takes completely unrelated parameters. For example the first and fourth both have a number in the same parameter, but they mean completely different things. That’s not easy at all, and would require you to constantly look up the template’s documentation; not only to use it, but even to understand what it does on an article. (not to mention that whatever logic the template has, it would be required to construct useful separated properties in the infobox template, making it even more complicated). poke | talk 10:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Alad, it seems you don't understand the mechanics of unnamed parameters in wiki templates. Without names to identify them, the template code can only refer to them by position, i.e. 1, 2, etc. So in order for the template to be at all sane, you have to rigidly define what each position represents (just the same way that you define what each named parameter represents). Your examples mostly have a profession in position 1, but then one of them says "bundle," which is not a profession. Your second parameter is all over the place - weapon types, "healing," "utility," and then a parent skill. Poke dealt with parameter 3, and in parameter 4 you have a slot number and a dual wield offhand. There's no way a wiki template can handle completely arbitrary input like that. Each parameter has to have a clearly defined meaning, and that's why we use named parameters, to help make that meaning clear, and that's also why we have so many of them.

The variables/facts parameter works the way it does because the infobox template simply passes whatever it contains directly to output. You could type free-form text in that parameter and it would simply pass straight through. It's actually a single-valued parameter. —Dr Ishmael 12:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm learning from this discussion! :) I did say I don't know how wiki works, and you're taking my examples too literally; they could be adapted with your knowledge of what's possible, for example one template per case or a few which can cover a subset of cases each. The aim was to enter one line instead of 5 to make sure you have everything you need, but in the end 1 or 5 doesn't really matter. As I said earlier, I'm only writing this to give you rough ideas, if anything. I'd actually be happy just with examples for every case, even if nothing changes at all. --Alad (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

(For the record, it is actually a feature that we have parameters on their own line; usually you would just write {{Skill infobox|description=This is an example.|icon=Skill.png|activation=1.5|recharge=45|profession=elementalist|...}}.) poke | talk 18:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Ugh... :/ --Alad (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

activation and recharge

So it hasn't really been brought up, but I recently got poke'd, so I'll ask about it. I made changes to activation and recharge with the wrapping the icons in their appropriate icon templates. All skills have an activation and recharge, so it makes sense to make the required parameters.

1. We set the property wif the parameter exists, and then omit the icon and spacing if the parameter is 0.
2. I had {{recharge}} and {{activation}} follow this, where a null displays the icon and a 0 value hides the icon.
3. This also ties in with {{skill activation}} and {{skill recharge}}, where the query passes a 0 to the templates if a property isn't found, to hide it.

The original way; if the value is implied to be 0 if the parameter is omitted, we don't enforce requiring all skills to have an activation and recharge. We may be setting the properties to 0 when the skill might have an activation and recharge but was just omitted.

1. We would set the property independent of whether the parameter exists, and then omit the icon if the parameter is 0.
2. {{recharge}} and {{activation}} would stay the same.
3. {{skill recharge}} and {{skill activation}} would query and return a value of 0 to the templates.

You won't know if the value is 0 or the property doesn't exist for a particular skill. If we want to query for all skills with no recharge or less than a value for these properties, skills that may not necessarily have a 0 value would be included instead of having a null value. In summary, requiring the parameters keeps the data integrity but makes it slightly harder to use the template if we have to specify a value on the skills that have instant recharge or activation.-Relyk ~ talk > 02:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I remember an argument about this exact same thing back on GuildWiki. If the value is 0 and we don't display 0, then editors will assume that the presence of 0 does nothing and will omit it. It's confusing in any case to require parameters that don't have any observable impact. —Dr Ishmael 03:32, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't effect the appearance on the infobox either way because everything is coded to match the behavior before changing it. If the infobox didn't have the check for the parameter, it would display the icons with no values.--Relyk ~ talk > 03:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

"Main hand mace" for Guardian

I just noticed this (perhaps it was there all along: e.g. True Strike), but adding "main hand" in front of the weapon can be/is confusing, as it implies that weapon can be held in both hands by that profession. I would suggest not adding the text "main hand", just the weapon, even when the weapon can be used in both hands, and putting "off hand" only if the weapon can be used in both hands. The slot number is an additional indication in any case. --Alad (talk) 02:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Included in my proposals in #overhaul, phase 1 above. —Dr Ishmael 02:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Skills that destroy the bundle

I've noticed that several skills destroy the bundle, but it's not always noted in the description, and never noted in the infobox. Should we note that in the infobox (since there's a % chance for several skills, it'll have to account for that) or just put it manually in the notes section? MithTalk 00:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it would fit well into the infobox. Documenting it is definitely worthwhile, though, so go ahead and stick it in the notes. —Dr Ishmael 02:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

"Tool Belt" property should not be used for racial skills

Racial skills concern all of the 8 professions. For 88% of the population (7/8), it is confusing to read that reference to something which doesn't apply to them. I don't know how this would complicate other things that are being programmed right now, but at the very least, the property should be renamed to something a lot more explicit than just "tool belt", like "Toolbelt (for engineers only)", or at least that or similar text should appear in the infobox, whatever the property is named. A better and clearer way would be to have a second skill infobox on the skill's page, specifically for engineers, mentioning the toolbelt. Or a totally different page for the engineer's version of the skill (although that would cause 2 pages to need modification if the skill changes). --Alad (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Tool belt is the engineer's profession mechanic; it should be obvious that tool belt skills only apply to the engineer, since no other profession has access to the tool belt. And NO, we are not doing dual infoboxes. —Dr Ishmael 20:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately many, if not most, readers of this wiki may not know the "obvious". That's why this wiki is here, after all. For people who don't know. Rename it to something more explicit, then. --Alad (talk) 22:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a link that describes what the Tool belt is for those who have no idea how one of the professions works. New players may not know what a poison combo field is in a skill description, either, and it may be irrelevant to their build with no combo finishers, but they are free to find out more if they wish. I really don't think it's so confusing and impossible to figure out that we need to hide it or explain further. Manifold 22:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

That's the whole point of a wiki - everything is linked to everything else. You can't explain everything on every page, and you don't need to, because you can just link to the page that does explain it. —Dr Ishmael 00:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Do the engineer versions of racial skills have the same skill IDs as the normal versions? --Alad (talk) 03:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, just tested - Pain Inverter is ID 12320 on both of my asura (engineer and necromancer). The tool belt skill Pain Transference is ID 12335. —Dr Ishmael 04:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

'Toss Elixir' skills when underwater

→ moved from User talk:Relyk#'Toss Elixir' skills when underwater

So, Elixir X displays different skill facts underwater. Should I just add these skill facts (Whirlpool and Plague instead of Tornado and Rampage) or create another page like [[Elixir X (underwater)]]? The latter also has a different id (20451) which can also be added as id parameter support multi-ids. – Valento ^msg 19:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Like this? – Valento ^msg 19:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems Toss Elixir B has two variations (different ids too), looking for more... – Valento ^msg 19:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

There we go... Toss Elixir R got two slightly different skill facts. (uw id is 6091) – Valento ^msg 19:58, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

This is its sequence (Detonate Elixir R, id = 6086), therefore I conclude that elixirs aren't ground-targetted underwater but has a secondary "detonate" sequence that lasts a little bit and detonates the thrown elixir to affect the area around the explosion. All tool belt elixir skills appear to have different ids and slightly (some cases very) different skill facts. Are they worth their own underwater version page since they carry a sequence skill on their own that isn't related to their "land" version? – Valento ^msg 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Compiled related info about toss elixir underwater variants. Thoughts? – Valento ^msg 20:55, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Supply Crate also has some differences when underwater, and a different id. – Valento ^msg 21:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Monster skills!

Should the skill infobox be used for Monster skill, since the core of the whole infobox is amiss in those cases, such as the description, base damage or even the icon (in most cases)? Perhaps no infobox should be used, since using monster skills in this infobox just creates more of this. Now there is a monster skill page, with only a few pages in the category. Honestly, I prefer the un-infobox way of documenting those, but of course, I can't speak in the name of others. Thoughts? --Ventriloquist (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Our current practice is that we document monster skills on the monster that uses them. Since the only info we can know for certain is the skill's name (and that only when it deals damage recorded in the combat log), there's little reason to have a separate article for them. —Dr Ishmael 15:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you suggesting deletion of existing skills or merging? --Ventriloquist (talk) 16:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I see you've already created some pages. I would merge the information into the monster's page and, if the skill name is unique, convert it to a redirect, otherwise delete. —Dr Ishmael 16:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh I didn't even see this discussion going on, I got the actual names by checking the combat log when being hit by such attacks (some costed my death hahah). I see you've put them in the respective monster pages, from now on I'll do that as well. :) – Valento ^msg 21:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Ground-targeted skills!

Continuing the discussion above... I went and modified this infobox to display an icon when a skill has ground-targetting, not sure how further we can go but at least it's a start. – Valento ^msg 18:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I also changed my common.cs to extend div.infobox dt to 88px, so it displays "Ground target" in the same line. Example:

{{infobox status|{{{status|{{#ifeq:{{{historical|n}}}|y|historical}} }}} }}<!--

--><div class="infobox skill {{lc:{{{profession|{{{race|}}}}}}}}"> <div class="icon skill-infobox-icon"> <div style="overflow: hidden; width: 36px; height: 36px; display:inline-block; vertical-align:middle;"> <div style="margin: -6px; overflow: hidden;">[[Has game icon::File:{{{icon|{{#titleparts:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}.png}}}|48x48px]]</div> </div> {{ifimage|{{FULLPAGENAME}} animation.gif|<p>[[:File:{{PAGENAME}} animation.gif|Animation]]</p>}} </div> <p class="heading">[[Has canonical name::{{{name|{{#titleparts:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}}}]]</p> <div class="statistics"> {{#if: {{{uw-replaced-by|}}} |<span>[[File:Not available underwater.png|x20px|link=Underwater mode#Underwater skills|Not available underwater]]</span>  | }}{{#ifeq: {{{initiative|0}}} | 0 || {{#set:Has initiative cost={{{initiative}}}}}{{initiative|{{{initiative}}}}}   }}{{#ifeq: {{{energy|0}}} | 0 || {{#set:Has energy cost={{{energy}}}}}{{energy|{{{energy}}}}}   }}{{#ifeq: {{{upkeep|0}}} | 0 || {{#set:Has upkeep cost={{{upkeep}}}}}{{upkeep|{{{upkeep}}}}}   }}{{#ifeq: {{{activation|0}}} | 0 || {{#set:Has activation time={{{activation}}}}}{{activation|{{{activation}}}}}   }}{{#ifeq: {{{recharge|0}}} | 0 || {{#set:Has recharge time={{{recharge}}}}}{{recharge|{{{recharge}}}}}   }}{{#if: {{{hero points|}}} |<span>[[Has training hero point cost::{{{hero points}}}]] [[File:Hero point.png|20px|Hero point]]</span>  }}{{#if: {{{ground-target|}}} | [[File:Ground_target_aim.png|18px|Ground-targeted|link=Targeting#Ground_targeting]]   {{#set:Is ground targeted=Y}}|{{#set:Is ground targeted=N}}}} </div> <div class="wrapper"> {{#if: {{{profession|}}} | ;[[Profession]] :{{#ifeq: {{lc:{{{profession}}}}} | common | {{common}} [[Profession|All]] {{#set:Is for profession=Any}} | {{ {{{profession}}} }} [[Is for profession::{{ucfirst:{{{profession}}}}}]] <small>([[List of {{lc:{{{profession}}}}} skills|skill list]])</small> }}{{#set:Has profession sort order={{#switch:{{lc:{{{profession}}}}} | guardian = 1 | warrior = 2 | engineer = 3 | revenant = 4 | ranger = 5 | thief = 6 | elementalist = 7 | mesmer = 8 | necromancer = 9 | #default = 10 }} }} | {{#set:Is for profession=Any}} <!-- Default to any if parameter is missing --> }}{{#if:{{{specialization|}}}| ;Specialization :[[Is for specialization::{{ucfirst:{{{specialization}}}}}]] }}{{#if: {{{race|}}} | ; [[Playable races|Race]] : [[File:{{ucfirst:{{{race}}}}} tango icon 20px.png]] [[Is for race::{{ucfirst:{{{race}}}}}]] <small>([[List of {{lc:{{{race}}}}} racial skills|skill list]])</small> }}{{#if: {{{pet|}}} | ; [[Pet]]{{#if: {{#pos: {{{pet|}}} |,}} | s }} : {{#arraymap: {{{pet}}} |,|@@@| [[Is for pet::Juvenile {{ucfirst:@@@}}|{{ucfirst:@@@}}]] |<br>}} }}{{#if: {{{pet-family|}}} | ; [[Pet]] family : [[Is for pet family::{{ucfirst:{{{pet-family|}}}}}]] }}{{#if: {{{monster|}}} | ; [[Monster]] : [[{{ucfirst:{{{monster}}}}}]] }}{{#if: {{{parent|}}} | ; Parent skill : {{skill icon|{{{parent}}}|size=20}} {{#set: Has parent skill={{{parent}}}}} }}{{ #switch: {{{slot|}}} | weapon = ; [[Weapon]] : {{#if: {{{mainhand|}}} | {{#set:Is for weapon={{{mainhand}}}}} {{#switch: {{{mainhand|}}} | | axe = [[Main hand]] [[axe]] | dagger = [[Main hand]] [[dagger]] | mace = [[Main hand]] [[mace]] | pistol = [[Main hand]] [[pistol]] | scepter = [[Scepter]] | sword = [[Main hand]] [[sword]] }}{{#if: {{{offhand|}}} | <br> }} }}{{#if: {{{offhand|}}} | {{#ifeq: {{lc:{{{type|}}}}} | dual wield | {{#set:Requires offhand={{ucfirst:{{{offhand}}}}}}} | {{#set:Is for weapon={{{offhand}}}}} }}{{#switch: {{{offhand}}} | axe = [[Off-hand]] [[axe]] | dagger = [[Off-hand]] [[dagger]] | mace = [[Off-hand]] [[mace]] | pistol = [[Off-hand]] [[pistol]] | sword = [[Off-hand]] [[sword]] | focus = [[Focus]] | shield = [[Shield]] | torch = [[Torch]] | warhorn = [[Warhorn]] | none | empty = ''[[Off-hand]] empty'' }} }}{{#if: {{{twohand|}}} | [[Is for weapon::{{ucfirst:{{{twohand}}}}}]] }} | weapon kit = ; [[Weapon kit]] : {{#ifexist: File:{{{kit}}}.png | [[File:{{{kit}}}.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{kit}}}]] | [[Image:Skill.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{kit}}}]]}} [[Is for weapon::{{{kit}}}]] | backpack kit | device kit = ; [[Device kit]] : {{#ifexist: File:{{{kit}}}.png | [[File:{{{kit}}}.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{kit}}}]] | [[Image:Skill.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{kit}}}]]}} [[Is for weapon::{{{kit}}}]] | environmental | bundle = ; [[Bundle|Bundle]]:{{#arraymap: {{{twohand|}}} |,|@@@| [[Is for weapon::{{ucfirst:@@@}}|{{#replace: {{ucfirst:@@@}} | (environmental weapon) }}]] |<br>}} | burst skill = ; [[Weapon]]</p> <p class="info"> [[Main hand]] [[{{lc:{{{mainhand}}}}}]] | healing = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[Healing skill|Healing]] {{#set:Has skill context=Healing}}{{#if:{{{uw-replaced-by|}}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=N}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=Y}}}} | utility = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[Utility skill|Utility]] {{#set:Has skill context=Utility}}{{#if:{{{uw-replaced-by|}}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=N}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=Y}}}} | elite = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[Elite skill|Elite]] {{#set:Has skill context=Elite}}{{#if:{{{uw-replaced-by|}}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=N}}|{{#set:Is usable underwater=Y}}}} | downed = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[List of downed skills|Downed]]{{#set:Has skill context=Downed}} | drowning = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[List of drowning skills|Drowning]]{{#set:Has skill context=Drowning}} | downed and drowning = ;[[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[List of downed skills|Downed]] <br /> [[List of drowning skills|Drowning]]{{#set:Has skill context=Downed}} | deathshroud = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]: [[Death Shroud]] | reapershroud = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]: [[Reaper's Shroud]] | pet = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[List of pet skills|Pet]] | mechanic = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[Profession mechanic]]{{#set:Has skill context=Profession mechanic}} | monster = ; [[Skill bar{{!}}Slot]]:[[Monster skill]] | toy = ; [[Toy]]:{{#if:{{{toy|}}}|[[{{{toy}}}]]|}} | tonic = ; [[Tonic]]:{{#if:{{{tonic|}}}|[[{{{tonic}}}]]|}} }}<!-- end switch slot -->{{#if: {{{activity|}}} | ; [[Activity]] : {{#switch: {{lc:{{{activity|}}}}} | costume | costume brawl = [[Costume Brawl]] | #default = [[{{ucfirst:{{{activity|}}}}}]]{{#set:Has skill context=Activity}}{{#set:Is for activity={{ucfirst:{{{activity|}}}}}}} }} }}{{#if: {{{weapon-slot|}}}|{{#set:Has skill slot number={{{weapon-slot}}}}} {{#ifexpr:{{{weapon-slot}}} < 6 and {{{weapon-slot}}} > 0 |;   : [[File:Weapon slot {{{weapon-slot}}} tango.png|65x20px|Weapon slot {{{weapon-slot}}}]] }} }} {{#if: {{{tool_belt|}}} | {{#switch:{{{slot}}} | healing | utility | elite = {{#if:{{{parent|}}} | <!--don't show tool belt for secondary skills--> |; [[Tool belt]] : {{#ifexist: File:{{{tool_belt}}}.png | [[File:{{{tool_belt}}}.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{tool_belt}}}]] | [[Image:Skill.png{{!}}20x20px{{!}}link={{{tool_belt}}}]]}} [[{{{tool_belt}}}]]}} }} }}{{#if: {{{attunement|}}} | ; [[Attunement]] : [[Is for attunement::{{ucfirst:{{{attunement}}}}} Attunement|{{ucfirst:{{{attunement}}}}}]] }}{{#if: {{{type|}}} | ; [[Skill type|Type]] : {{#arraymap:{{{type}}}|,|@@@|{{#switch:{{lc:@@@}} | deception = [[Deception (skill type)|Deception]] {{#set:Has skill type=Deception}} | tool belt | tool belt skill = [[Has skill type::Tool belt]] | #default = [[Has skill type::{{ucfirst:@@@}}]] }}}} }}{{#if: {{{activ-type|}}} | ; [[Skill#Skill types{{!}}Activ. type]] : {{#switch: {{lc:{{{activ-type|}}}}} | chain = [[Chain]] | channeled | hold = [[Channeled skill|Channeled]] | charge = [[Charge skill|Charge]] }} }}{{#if: {{{chain1|}}} | ; [[Sequence skill|Sequence]] : {{#arraymap: {{{chain1|}}}, {{{chain2|}}}, {{{chain3|}}} |,|@@@| {{borderless|{{#sub:{{#show: @@@ | ?Has game icon | link = none | default = File:Skill.png }}|5}}|20|link=@@@}}| →  }}{{#set:Has chain sequence={{{chain1}}}{{#if:{{{chain2|}}}|, {{{chain2}}}}}{{#if:{{{chain3|}}}|, {{{chain3}}}}}}} }}{{#if:{{{id|}}}| ; Game link : {{skill link|{{#explode:{{{id}}}|,|0}}}} {{#arraymap:{{{id}}}|,|@@@|{{#set:Has game id=@@@}}|}}}} </div> {{clear}}{{#set:Has context=Skill}} </div><!-- AUTOCATEGORIZATION - skill description/effects code is after this -->{{#if: {{NAMESPACE}}<!-- no categories if outside of article namespace --> {{#ifeq: {{{categorize|y}}} | n | do not categorize | <!-- categorize --> }} {{#switch: {{lc:{{{status|}}}}} | historical | unimplemented | future = do not categorize }} {{#ifeq: {{lc:{{{historical}}}}} | y | do not categorize }}<!-- legacy support --> | <!-- Do not categorize --> | {{#if: {{{icon|}}} || {{#ifexist:File:{{#replace:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|:|-}}.png || [[Category:Skills missing icon]] }} }} {{#if: {{{profession|}}}| {{#if: {{{specialization|}}} | [[Category:{{ucfirst:{{{specialization|}}}}} skills]] | [[Category:{{ucfirst:{{{profession|}}}}} skills]] }} }} {{#if: {{{race|}}} | [[Category:{{ucfirst:{{{race|}}}}} skills]] }} <!---Attunement--> {{#if: {{{attunement|}}} | {{ #switch: {{lc:{{{attunement|}}}}} | air = [[Category:Air attunement skills]] | earth = [[Category:Earth attunement skills]] | fire = [[Category:Fire attunement skills]] | water = [[Category:Water attunement skills]] }} }} <!--Activity--> {{#if: {{{activity|}}} | {{ #switch: {{lc:{{{activity|}}}}} | costume | costume brawl = [[Category:Costume Brawl skills]] | #default = [[Category:{{ucfirst:{{{activity|}}}}} skills]] }} }} <!---Weapon---> {{#if: {{{mainhand|}}} | {{#switch: {{lc:{{{mainhand}}}}} | scepter = [[Category:Scepter skills]] | #default = [[Category:Main-hand {{lc:{{{mainhand}}}}} skills]] }} }} {{#if: {{{offhand|}}} | {{#switch: {{lc:{{{offhand}}}}} | none | empty = | focus | shield | torch | warhorn = [[Category:{{ucfirst:{{{offhand}}}}} skills]]{{#set:Has skill context=Offhand}} | #default = [[Category:Off-hand {{lc:{{{offhand}}}}} skills]]{{#set:Has skill context=Offhand}} }} }} {{#if: {{{twohand|}}} | {{#arraymap: {{{twohand}}} |,|@@@| {{#switch: {{{slot|}}} | environmental | bundle = [[Category:Bundle skills]] | weapon = [[Category:{{ucfirst:@@@}} skills]] }} |}} }} <!---Type---> {{#switch: {{lc:{{{type|}}}}} | arcane = [[Category:Arcane skills]] | aura = [[Category:Aura skills]] | banner = [[Category:Banner skills]] | burst | burst skill = [[Category:Burst skills]] | cantrip = [[Category:Cantrip skills]] | clone = [[Category:Clone skills]] | conjure = [[Category:Conjure skills]] | consecration = [[Category:Consecration skills]] | corruption = [[Category:Corruption skills]] | backpack kit | device kit = [[Category:Device kit skills]] | dual | dual skill = [[Category:Dual skills]] | deception = [[Category:Deception skills]] | elixir = [[Category:Elixir skills]] | gadget = [[Category:Gadget skills]] | glamour = [[Category:Glamour skills]] | glyph = [[Category:Glyph skills]] | intervention = [[Category:Intervention skills]] | manipulation = [[Category:Manipulation skills]] | mantra = [[Category:Mantra skills]] | mark = [[Category:Mark skills]] | meditation = [[Category:Meditation skills]] | minion = [[Category:Minion skills]] | phantasm = [[Category:Phantasm skills]] | physical = [[Category:Physical skills]] | preparation = [[Category:Preparation skills]] | shatter = [[Category:Shatter skills]] | shout = [[Category:Shout skills]]{{DEFAULTSORT:{{#replace:{{{name|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}|"|}}}} | signet = [[Category:Signet skills]] | spectral = [[Category:Spectral skills]] | spirit | spirit skill = [[Category:Spirit skills]] | spirit weapon = [[Category:Spirit weapon skills]] | survival = [[Category:Survival skills]] | stance = [[Category:Stance skills]] | stealth attack = [[Category:Stealth Attack skills]] | stolen skill = [[Category:Stolen skills]] | symbol = [[Category:Symbol skills]] | tome = [[Category:Tome skills]] | tool belt skill = [[Category:Tool belt skills]] | transform = [[Category:Transform skills]] | trap = [[Category:Trap skills]] | trick = [[Category:Trick skills]] | turret = [[Category:Turret skills]] | ward = [[Category:Ward skills]] | weapon kit = [[Category:Weapon kit skills]] | well = [[Category:Well skills]] | venom = [[Category:Venom skills]] | virtue = [[Category:Virtue skills]] }} <!---Slot---> {{#switch: {{lc:{{{slot|}}}}} | healing = [[Category:Healing skills]] | elite = [[Category:Elite skills]] | utility = [[Category:Utility skills]] | deathshroud = [[Category:Death Shroud skills]] | reapershroud = [[Category:Reaper's Shroud skills]] | downed = [[Category:Downed skills]] | drowning = [[Category:Drowning skills]] | downed and drowning = [[Category:Downed skills]][[Category:Drowning skills]] | monster = [[Category:Monster skills]] | pet = [[Category:Pet skills]] | toy = [[Category:{{{toy|}}} skills]] | tonic = [[Category:{{{tonic|}}} skills]] | weapon kit | backpack kit | device kit = [[Category:{{{kit|}}} skills]] }} <!---Ground targeting---> {{#if: {{{ground-target|}}} | [[Category:Ground-targeted skills]] }} <!---Polymorph forms--> {{#switch: {{lc:{{{parent|}}}}} | polymorph tuna = [[Category:Tuna Form skills]] | polymorph moa = [[Category:Moa Form skills]] }} <!---Activation type--> {{#switch: {{lc:{{{activ-type}}}}} | chain = [[Category:Chain skills]] | channeled = [[Category:Channeled skills]] | charge = [[Category:Charge skills]] }} }}<!-- Here's the description/effects section-->{{#ifeq:{{{uw-replaced-by|none}}}|none|<!--display nothing when there is no replacement skill-->|:[[File:Not available underwater.png|x20px]] ''This skill has an [[underwater mode|underwater]] replacement: [[{{{uw-replaced-by}}}]]''}}{{#if:{{{uw-replaces|}}}|:[[File:Underwater.png|x20px]] ''This skill is the [[underwater mode|underwater]] replacement for: [[{{{uw-replaces|}}}]]''}} {{Quotation|In-game description ^{[[[Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Skill formatting|?]]]}|[[Has game description::{{{description|''No description available.''}}}]] {{{variables|}}} }} {{clear}} <!-- Related traits -->{{#vardefine:related_traits|{{#ask:[[Relates to skill::{{FULLPAGENAME}}]]|link = none}}}} {{#if: {{#var:related_traits|}} | <includeonly>== Related [[trait]]s ==</includeonly> {{#arraymap: {{#var:related_traits}} |,|@@@|* {{trait icon|@@@}} - {{trait description|@@@}}|\n}} }}

– Valento ^msg 15:39, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

increasing the dd width to 135 would give you elementalist skill lists on the same line too... -Chieftain Alex 18:40, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Profession

Elementalist (skill list)

Ground target

Cone

I see, but main point is ground target icon! What do you think? – Valento ^msg 19:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The values would match what ishmael suggested and "ground target" for the name. Cone refers to a different AoE. And I don't think the arc ground target is in the game anymore.--Relyk ~ talk < 19:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, that was just a mindless example. – Valento ^msg 20:02, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

No replies thus far, and since this discussion has started much long ago, I'm going to add that parameter and let it be improved over time (icon only). – Valento ^msg 13:33, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

And done! Or almost... I've run through all classes adding param to ground-targeted skills, but I most likely forgot some (and pet skills too). If you have any suggestions, now's the time! – Valento ^msg 15:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Environmental weapon skills

Several environmental weapon bundles share skills (e.g.: Spy Kit and Order of Whispers Spy Kit but the infobox does not account for that. Environmental weapon bundles are indicated in the "twohand" parameter but that parameter is not prepared for multiple values. MithTalk 19:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I just ran into the same issue while trying to condense the "Bash" and "Smash" skill pages as they're shared with Splintered Rack Piece, Garden Hoe, Driftwood, Icicle Shard, Ogre Maul, and Stalagmite. Does anyone know how to fix this? :o -Somohexual (talk) 17:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

It will now accept comma separates values in the bundle/environmental parameter. -Chieftain Alex 20:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that the category is at all useful btw, would we lose anything if I removed that bit of code? -Chieftain Alex 20:22, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be confusing if the skill didn't list what "weapon" it's apart of though? Especially for a skill as vaguely/generally named as "Bash" or "Smash". -Somohexual (talk) 23:39, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

He's talking about the categories, not what's in the infobox. And I agree, the categories for bundle skills have always been pointless - the bundle's page states what skills it has, the category provides no value. —Dr Ishmael 01:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree on removing those unless bundle is provided by a profession. Btw, don't forget to change template's documentation to reflect changes made to it. – Valento ^msg 10:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

(Reset indent) On a related note, can we please stop using the term "environmental weapon"? We already have it redirecting to "bundle," which has been Anet's preferred term since right before release. —Dr Ishmael 14:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)