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Speculating about the Sixth Elder Dragon[edit]

I'd like to know who flagged this as "raw speculation, reads like fan fiction" when several key points of evidence have been presented. It is theory based on facts we have found throughout the game, so I don't see why it's considered "raw speculation, reads like fan fiction". Keep it as a theory page with the appropriate theory flag and when we get more solid proof, change it accordingly. I have a suspicion of who flagged it, and it wouldn't surprise me at all 14:35, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Currently editing the article, I do concur it is mostly raw speculation, and could be formatted more objectively. The rule of thumb on GW2W is that speculation is not included in main space articles. This article should exist, possibly under a different name, with a note stating its expected name due to the skill it's derived from. However, it should be factual in nature, not speculative. Something along the lines of deep sea dragon. - Infinite - talk 15:10, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, "sixth dragon" would be the obvious choice. What I also do not understand is why Mordremoth couldn't be the name of the DSD? - Yandere Talk to me... 15:35, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
My two cents: The facts behind Mordremoth is simply the note about Subject Alpha - that Subject Alpha has an earth-based skill called "Teeth of Mordremoth" which is used in the same manner as Teeth of Primordus and Teeth of Jormag. Said manner being that he only uses 2 in any one path, and the one that he doesn't use has a boss of the dragons' minions for the latter two (no Teeth of Primordus=fight Evolved Destroyer later; no Teeth of Jormag=fight Bjorn icebrood later) and the path where he doesn't use Teeth of Mordremoth has the Husks and Nightmare Hounds. Thus tying Mordremoth's name to Zone Green and Experimental Lab Green. Which is pretty much what's stated - though it's added that it could be the name for the sixth Elder Dragon (which is what would be the case if the word Mordremoth is indeed intended to be used the same way as Primordus and Jormag's names in the dungeon).
Information on the sixth dragon that we know is pretty much one and the same with this - the only difference is that Mordremoth wouldn't include the mention by the Priory of a sixth ED, while the sixth ED article wouldn't make mention of Subject Alpha. I did my best to remove as much speculation as possible (such as the ties to sylvari) that Santax made, but I wanted to avoid another meaningless debate over semantics as much as possible, so I kept the editing to a minimum.
As it stands, the name and opening sentence is theoretical, while the rest is factual. The only changes I see being needed would be moving the article to "Sixth Elder Dragon" and altering that first sentence to reflect such - maybe remove the image too, since it doesn't deal with the sixth Elder Dragon specifically.
@Yandere: Because the name Mordremoth has NO ties with water, the (supposed) element of the DSD. The name ties into plants, poison, and earth. Konig/talk 18:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree on the move. The existence of the sixth dragon can be established as a fact on the new article, while containing the name-related and other speculation on different sections of the article. Mediggo 16:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Moving this article to [[Sixth Elder Dragon]] would effectively give us a 2 sentence article ("The sixth known dragon, mentioned in ancient texts unearthed by the Durmand Priory, has not yet been observed to have any noticeable impact on the world. As such, its state is unknown." with the Alpha note and a second note of Zone Green/Experimental Green Lab being plant based. Just saying. Konig/talk 04:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Maguuma Jungle[edit]

Since Colin mentions the Maguuma Jungle, would it be worth mentioning in a new sub-section of the Presence section the Maguuma Wastes's lore? Or would that be too much of "speculation" to really merit? Konig 21:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a Dragon with powers related to forests and nature would go to a dry desertish area? I believe it has more something to do with Magus Falls, especially because there is speculation that a second Pale Tree is growing there. --Landon144 01:13, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Wastes and Falls are all part of the Maguuma Jungle. In his interview Colin mentions (iirc) that the area is vast and important due to all the events of GW1 that happened there. The dragon almost definitely is situated or controls some portions of the Maguuma Jungle, but since we don't really know how large the jungle really is and that almost all knowledge of the dragon's powers and sphere is speculation anyways, there isn't much concrete facts to add. Mediggo 09:45, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


I'm not sure I understand the complaint. Colin Johanson's post is a canon acknowledgement that the name of the jungle dragon is Mordremoth. Therefore, that should be the name of the article. Besides, I wasn't going to spend time expanding this article (all the while pretending that I, and everyone else, don't know the name of this dragon), only to have to do so again in two weeks' time.

As for the discussion section, Zhaitan has quite a few sections, and there's actually more we can say about Mordremoth than most of the other Elder Dragons. I thought it necessary to give the article a little structure, in this case, and readability should always trump consistency if there is a conflict between the two. --Santax (talk · contribs) 22:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I wanna ask both Santax and Konig to lay down in this discussion. You have given opinion statements and that is good (konig by your rewrite tag, and Santax here). But you have history. I'm not going to link or bring it up, you both know what I'm talking bout. So I would appreciate if you leave the consensus to the rest here just to avoid history. The issue bout the name is the first issue. There is often direct evidence (the dragon being called mordremoth in game for example) and indirect evidence. The indirect evidence was, to me allready clear. The fact that Colin is now reaction to a post on the forum where he is called Mordremoth is still indirect evidence, but making it beyond reasonable doubts. There is no reasonable doubt that the name of this dragon is mordremoth. As for the (new) content of the article. Many facts have been presented. on my request on his talk page he added some wikilinks. But as for the dates I'm still missing them. If the dates are correct then the article looks ok and shouldn't be rewritten. 23:07, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
I clearly missed something. Colin's post?
And to clarify what I meant about the rewrite tag - the "evidence of existence" I feel is a bit over-redundant if we know he exists (and apparently named). It was needed when we knew so little about him, but you don't see us making sections on Zhaitan's article about Zone Black, do we? That's all I meant. Konig 23:13, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Alrighty, saw Colin's post (did not see it before). I think that serves as proper evidence indeed - not that I really questioned it, but it's never known that perhaps they renamed him after making Alpha's skills, y'know? Konig 23:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate the attempt mediation, IP (no, really!) but actually I think this discussion might actually be kind of fruitful. Konig, I had the same concerns about redundancy with the evidence section, but some parts of it, particularly the second paragraph use the pre-awakening evidence to draw a connection between the Elder Dragon and the Summoned Husks in Wychmire Swamp, which is important. I can't think of a way of otherwise integrating that information into the article without it looking clumsy (or at least I couldn't last night, when I wrote it). --Santax (talk · contribs) 09:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
It's actually the Wychmire Swamp part which I am concerned with the most as it is the most speculative of all parts of it. The bit about Subject Alpha's skill name would be best placed in a Trivia section, IMO, noting that was the first evidence of his name in-game (a nice historical fact for new players); the existence of Summoned Husks, Nightmare Hounds, and Volatile Blossoms in CoE should be kept because this is the strongest case held for his minions. But this little fact doesn't need its own paragraph - it can easily be merged with the second section of "Discussion" (a bad name for the section, IMO) and renamed into "Pre-Awakening Actions" (or something similar - History would do too, for consistency sake).
The Wychmire Swamp may be evidence of his minions (they may easily be called "Blighted" once revealed), but as now it is the most speculative and since the article is no longer a lump of speculative connections, if kept on the article it should be under a Notes section, stating something such as "The foes encountered during The Battle for Wychmire Swamp meta event, including uniquely named Summoned Husks and Volatile Blossoms, are hinted at being tied to a darker presence than the Nightmare Court."" The mere existence of it hints that it is believed the darker presence could be Mordremoth, without speculating too much.
If those three actions are taken, I would have no issues, and all the information can thus be kept on the article. Konig 14:01, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Hey, just wanted to weigh in and suggest that it would be nice to maintain some kind of record of the piecing together we did to uncover his existence prior to his awakening. Also could we do something about the spoiler tag on the top of the page? It's there to warn people about spoilers, but its very existence kinda gives the whole thing away. Indigo121 (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
We could change the text to "This page may or may not contain spoilers, just to be safe you should probably close your browser." Felix Omni Signature.png 15:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


A few things:

  1. The concepts were marked as unused when posted on Kekai's blog, but have since been featured prominently on an official page as representations of Mordremoth. More prominently, in fact, than the "teeth" photo.
  2. The concept art pieces are high resolution and show the entire dragon's body, as opposed to being a screencap of a cinematic where only the teeth are shown.
  3. There's no need to have all but one of the images in the gallery. Zhaitan's page has a large infobox and more images than space - this is not the case here. There's no harm in spreading images across the page if we are able to, and it breaks up the monotony of the text.
  4. Aesthetic considerations. If you compare the two versions visually, one simply looks nicer than the other (imo, at least).
  5. Given that I dedicated an edit to adding the concept art, your edit is effectively a revert. That's not a problem in and of itself, but it would have been better to start a discussion here or on my talk page first (especially since the reason you give isn't a matter of right vs. wrong, but preference), rather than leave it to me to do it. Better discuss on a talk page first (or failing that, after) than try to have a debate via edit summaries, which is something we are both too often guilty of.

--Santax (talk · contribs) 18:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

  1. That is not official.
  2. But they're not modern representations of the dragon. I think that in-game models take precedence but where that's lacking, more modern art over older, unused art.
  3. True, however I don't think the page is really long enough to merit it - it looks far too crunched up with the images' pacing. Two on the sides at best but then you have a gallery section with only one image. I opted for 1 on side and 2 in gallery instead.
  4. I disagree. The bunched up images kind of distract me from the information on the article.
  5. Really now? You say this every time and it ends up in a wall o' text flame war. People will revert when disagree before discussion, it happens everywhere, let's not start this again please. I somehow doubt you'd complain about it if someone else did the same. And it isn't a revert since I didn't remove what was added, I shifted it around. Konig 20:15, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

(Reset indent) this is all theory and has no use here The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) at 01:49, 11 June 2014‎ (UTC).

To whoever said "this is all theory and has no use here". Please sign your posts in talk pages with 4 ~. Also if you disagree with something talk about it in the talk page. If someone disagrees and you think it needs further discussion from the community please post a RFC. As we known that Mordremoth is the Jungle dragon the images are fairly well tied to this article the gallery gives a disclaimer that they are not necessarily Mordremoth. If they belong on the page or not I am unsure. I think some of the other ones may be better suited elsewhere. Anzenketh (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Gallery of concept art is fine somewhere, but why is it on this page? It has nothing to do with mordremoth--Relyk ~ talk < 03:56, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
It might have something to do with the other elder dragon pages having concept art galleries. Maybe. Vili 点 User talk:Vili 04:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
It's all to do with politics, these images are old concept art work they have been around for a long time, once mord was established as the next dragon Santax decided to use these images. His grasp of Lore is rubbish. That is one of my reasons for asking these to be removed as they have nothing to do with the dragon it's self some of the concept art is old nightmare court. The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) at 15:11, 11 June 2014‎ (UTC).
I would agree that most of them have to do with the nightmare court and not Mordremoth. But then again it is possible that the images and the nightmare court themselves are related to Mordremoth. The truth is we just do not know yet. Asking items to be removed is not appropriate in the page itself however. A discussion is fine. I agree that they should be removed. Anzenketh (talk) 16:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


Has there been any word as to where the name "Mordremoth" comes from? (That is, if it's not just a name they randomly came up with) Since all four current dragon names have an etymology, I'd like to believe there's one for this one as well, but I can't figure out what it is. User I Elite Starchild I Monk-tango-icon-200.png-Alarielle- (talk) 00:12, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

For a haptic guess, modre means to "bite" in French, so maybe biting moth ^^.--Relyk ~ talk < 02:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking more along the lines of Mordred from the King Arthur legend. Vili 点 User talk:Vili 03:55, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
That makes sense. A lot of sylvari lore has its roots in Arthurian legends. A mashup of "Mordred" and "behemoth" would be appropriate. Santax (talk · contribs) 10:33, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


Where did you get that information from? Please link source(s), folks are debating a lot in my community if it's true or not. 11:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

From the articles on the wiki:
Looks like whoever wrote that didn't check their math - Jormag awoke 45 years after Primordus. We also don't know exactly when the sea dragon awoke, it could have been less than 50 years after Zhaitan or less than 50 years before Kralkatorrik. I'll change it to say 25 years, since that's much more accurate. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 13:25, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Wait, I understand what the other editor was getting at now - there was always a span of close to 50 years between the other dragons' awakenings: 45, 54, ~51, ~50. So "less than 50 years" was just a poor way of wording it. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 13:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm actually more concerned with the statement "It is likely that this was important to Scarlet's plan, whatever that may have been.", is there any quote or source or anything? 14:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
She deliberately instigated Mordremoth's awakening rather than waiting another ~40 years for it. That's a pretty obvious indication, I think. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 14:34, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I think I found the problem! :P Santax (talk · contribs) 20:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

August 2014 Rewrite[edit]

I've taken the bold step of rewriting the article with the following goals:

  • Re-focus the article to make it about Mordremoth, not inquest, scarlet, or speculation.
  • Rephrasing to emphasize things that we know (or can confirm), and de-emphasizing our guesses.

Towards that end, I've moved most of the comments about the Infinite Coil Reactor and the Crucible of Eternity to those articles. For example, the point for this article is that there are six zones (not five) and that one is green and follows a jungle, i.e. Mordremoth, theme. The details about the other five zones are best covered in the main article. Similarly, comments about Scarlet's psychopathology belong in the article dedicated to her (and I double checked that Vorpp's speculation was documented there, before I removed it).

When the article was originally written and updated, we didn't know much about the Jungle Dragon, we knew very little about dragons generally, and we didn't know how any of it connected with Scarlet. During that "ancient history" of last year, it made sense to explain as much as possible about why a sixth dragon might/might not be likely, about where it might be located or what it might be called, and how/why it got Scarlet to attack LA (or if she acted pre-emptively, rather than following blindly).

Now that we have a lot more lore to chew on, we can refocus specific articles to cover their primary topics and link appropriately, rather than repeating details in several articles (that would inevitably fall out of sync with each other).

As I always do, I've tried to preserve the intent & ideas of the original article. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The paragraph "Modern evidence" is written like we're still speculating whether there is a Jungle Dragon. I think it's better to phrase it in such a way, that readers know that this is information gathered by players before LS2. Qiff (talk) 09:33, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The Pale Tree's vision[edit]

I assume the dragon we see in the vision the Pale Tree sends the player at the end of The World Summit is Mordremoth? He has the same aesthetics as the Mordrem. Shoudl we include a picture of it on this page? We only see it from afar, so I'm not sure it would be very high quality. User I Elite Starchild I Monk-tango-icon-200.png-Alarielle- (talk) 18:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Late but that's the Shadow of the Dragon that we fought off just before the vision. Konig 18:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Lore question about origins[edit]

Has this dragon ever awoken in the past? Do we have this information? I'm very puzzled about his origins. – Valento msg 13:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

All dragons awoke in the past. There is little information about individual Elder Dragon activity during previous cycles though, and no Elder Dragons' origins are known. Konig 18:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
It intrigues me because every dragon seems to have devastated stuff before, and we know nothing about Mordremoth. Could it be a possibility that he didn't exist before? Maybe his creation is tied to Bloodstone, which he seems to be close to? – Valento msg 19:32, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The established "devastated stuff before" that you mention is when the Elder Dragons rose. Some, like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan, were instant devastation. Others, like Jormag, took a few years to take effect.
All we know of Primordus pre-rising (attempts) is that the dwarves fought a lot of "Great Destroyers". All we know of Jormag pre-rising (attempts) was that the dwarves owned the Sanguinary Blade forged from its blood. Al lwe know of Kralkatorrik pre-rising was that he bled in the Crystal Desert and his champion, Glaust (now Glint) was freed from mental corruption in Arah. All we know of Zhaitan pre-rising is... nothing. All we know of the DSD pre-rising is... nothing. All we know of Mordremoth pre-rising is... nothing. We know very little overall about the Elder Dragons' activities in the previous rise. What we know can be effectively summarized as "they came, they saw, they conquered, they left" (if you get the reference, go eat a cookie, you deserve it).
We know for a fact that he existed before. Six Elder Dragons existed for several waking cycles, and no Elder Dragon was killed in the previous rise (though when said previous rise was is up to debate - Priory theory and hints in interviews point to 10,000 BE, but Eir calls Glint 3,000 years old, Magister Sieran calls dwarven civilization 2,000+ years old, and the Forgotten came to the world in 1,769 BE.
But yeah, his name existed in pre-Bloodstone documents that talk of all six Elder Dragons. He's always been there. I think you're mistaking this rising's lore for the previous rising's lore when you say that "every dragon seems to have devastated stuff before". I mean, by that argument, the DSD didn't exist before either... but it did. It just wasn't near Tyria. Konig 20:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Precisely, Konig. I'm indeed mistaking. I wonder if we'll get to know more about them... I know lots of people are tired of dragons story-telling, but GW2 has such a wealth of lore tied to the dragons themselves that I feel compelled to know more! I know that overall lore can't rely solely on them, and have other asynchronous stories going on (centaurs, White Mantle, Six Gods, etc), but I really like them. – Valento msg 21:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

New Mordy concept art?[edit]

File:Mastery Mood Piece concept art (compressed).jpg - Should it be added? Konig 02:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't. It could be a new world boss, one of the "challenging" encounters or a variety of different things. I doubt they'd just show Mordremoth in random concept art like that. Ventriloquist 09:36, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Looks huge though. Judging by size I find it very likely that it is Mordremoth. If not, I presume it would be a champion. I suggest adding it to the article, tagging with something along the lines of "Concept art possibly of Mordremoth or a champion." Titus User titus the third.png 21:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
That is definitely Zhaitan sized. And Zhaitan had several concept pieces revealed before release, even had its final model in the 10-or-so-second trailer just before release. And in the live action trailer too (as horrid as that was) featuring the whole body in plain sight. Konig 22:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The dragon more closely resembles Zhaitan's original design imo. That, the fact that the image's metadata says that it was digitised on 29 August 2013 (the edit from 2015 was me, compressing the image to get its filesize below the upload cap), the fact that Rytlock is wearing his old armour, the fact that Rytlock is aboard a Pact airship (which of course never happens in LWS2 or, most likely, HoT), and the fact that the concept art title refers to the Masteries system rather than any story-related content, suggest that it is just an old piece that we are seeing now for the first time. Santax (talk · contribs) 00:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The original concept art for all Elder Dragons look similar to each other. This concept art was used at PAX South, when they were talking about the Heart of Maguuma and the story of HoT, and they were clearly thinking of Mordremoth in 2013 given the direction of the Living World and Scarlet. Might be one of the earlier concept arts for Mordremoth. Konig 01:08, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Flag for Spoilers[edit]

The mordremoth page contains spoilers for LS season 2 which we might want to flag or spoiler tag somehow. I don't know how to do that. 22:48, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

speculation and not proper information?[edit]

"The Rotting Ancient Oakheart in Queensdale is described as "corrupted" by hunters, but it's possible that it was corrupted by dragon magic instead." - is this not speculation/rumour rather than actual information? if so, does it need to be taken down? Getefix (talk) 14:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The entire article needs rewritten as everything was written while it was still implications or speculations. Konig 15:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Voice Actor[edit]

It could be added that Mordremoth is voiced by Nolan North as shown by this article --BuddhaKeks 12:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Time to update the picture[edit]

The new trailer shows Mordremoth partially manifest at the end. It seems that he has the ability to grow wherever he wants to appear and sort of retreat into the vines at will, just like how he can regrow his minions. That said, his partially grown form would be the most appropriate for the main picture on the article at the moment. -- 01:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Presuming that is Mordremoth and not just a new champion or an "avatar" to represent his presence far away from his body. Konig 02:27, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
My guess is that since he can regrow his minions, he can "grow" himself anywhere he has influence. It spoke from his perspective with his voice unlike the Mordrem he made in the beginning of the trailer, so I feel that it's safe to say that it's him in some form. Still, even if the avatar is the case, I still feel that it's a better picture to work with than a picture of his jawline. -- 06:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, there's a few flaws in the argument. I'm just playing devil's advocate, mind, but here's my take. That thing looks nothing like a dragon; it's a clear promotional trailer utilizing a mixture of concept art, special cgi, and game models; we don't see jaws flapping in sync with Mordremoth's words; we know that the Elder Dragons know what their minions know.
Possible conclusions: 1) It is Mordremoth, but not how we'll see him in the game for the sake of spoilers. ArenaNet got a bit of flak for revealing Zhaitan's final look in the two trailers leading to the release of GW2, they may not have wanted to repeat it. 2) It's a construct he uses to see directly, like the Eyes of Zhaitan, but isn't himself. This will mean it will likely get its own article. 3) It's a "part" of Mordremoth that he can grow, thus will be part of this article but not deserving to be the main image. 4) It's his actual body. He doesn't look draconic at all despite being an Elder Dragon. ArenaNet spoiled the big bad again. And far more blatantly than ever before since Shiro Tagachi. And that model will become the main image on the article.
Personal conclusion: Add an image down bottom in a gallery section (remaking it since we now have 2 additional concepts of him - the one of an above talk section and this trailer), captioned as his possible appearance in the trailer. Konig 06:35, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Number 3 is the most probable one in my opinion. We don't know its true nature, but it is Mordremoth in some capacity, with the draconic head, speaking in first person, etc. Plus it's the only depiction of him that we have thus far and a much better representation than old concept art. Best approach would be to put it at the top and caption it as something like "possible avatar of Mordremoth from the launch trailer" -- 07:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
It's an avatar constructed from Modremoth's vines. I have no problem with it being at the start of the article.--Relyk ~ talk < 07:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Mordremoth's Fight[edit]

Now that HoT is out, we know how the fight goes down. There are two different fights: his body and mind. His body, the "Mouth of Mordremoth", is fought in the Dragon's Stand meta event chain. It's documented here: . I suggest we use a picture of the Mouth of Mordremoth for the main picture on the article.

His mind is fought in the final story chapter. It's established that he can keep regrowing his body so long as his mind lives.

-- 08:52, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Mouth of Mordermoth as main picture[edit]

Based on both dialogue, in-game text, and the scale and visuals of the fight, I feel very confident in saying that the Mouth of Mordremoth is, unlike the Mouths of Zhaitan, literally his mouth. NPCs reference it as Mordremoth throughout the Dragon's Stand events, and it even speaks as Mordremoth during the fight. I feel that it would be a much more fitting main picture than the avatar of his mind that you fight in Hearts and Minds, and has the added benefit of being a little less spoiler-y.--Mallas Elerviel (talk) 05:35, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

If you can get a nice screenshot of it from either during the Dragon Stand event, or the cinematic afterwards, feel free to replace the existing image, which I agree is a bit lacklustre. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
The entire article needs a rewrite and Mouth of Mordremoth should redirect here since it is by all indication Mordremoth's physical body and the 'mouth' seen at the end of S1 trailer. Konig 02:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do about a screenshot. If I manage to get one, I'll link to it here. Admittedly, I'm not the most savvy wiki editor. --Mallas Elerviel (talk) 07:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Someone had already added one, though whether a better one can be added or not I don't know, cuz I've yet to see the thing in person. Konig 10:44, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Angle is pretty wonky. Let's see if we can get him in a more "upright" angle. --Mallas Elerviel (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
The way that is written now, it seems that the mouth is mordremoth itself and not the most important part of is physical body. Who reads "..., its physical, non-plant-like body is called the "Mouth of Mordremoth...", gets the idea that mordremoth is just the mouth. In the whole article, there isn't a single reference how is body is the jungle and how the roods of it's body spread deep in the underground. - Raikiri 16:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Appropriate place for that feedback would be the section below. But anyways, technically, the jungle isn't his body, but he can regrow his body from his corruption (the vines). There's a vast difference between Mordremoth's corruption, the jungle, and Mordremoth's physical body - the first are corrupted plants, the second are non-corrupted plants, the third is scales-and-plants combined. He couldn't be killed by just killing the Mouth of Mordremoth because he can regrow his body as he transfers his mind across his corruption, not that the Mouth of only a portion of the body. Konig 16:32, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Nov '15 rewrite[edit]

I rewrote the article to be a bit more concise, not have major S2 spoilers at the very top, and include everything from HoT without the "hey this is how we pieced it together" as, personally, I think that detracts from the article - if folks want to bring it back and preserve it somehow, the information'll be in the history. Anyways, I rewrote the article under the following conclusions: (WARNING POTENTIAL SPOILERS)

  1. I mentioned that while Mordremoth has access to the Dream he doesn't seem to be its originator. This is based off of the Points of Interest Episode 18 summary, which I referenced, which indirectly stated that the Dream and Nightmare protect against Mordremoth's influence, and that he uses the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts as cracks in the defenses.
  2. As said above, I removed the 'modern evidence of Mordremoth' for two reasons: first, half of it was and rather still is speculative; second, the other half I feel is unnecessary given that Mordremoth as well as his ties to sylvari are revealed.
  3. Regarding the Scarlet bit - given that Mordremoth claims "I am this world" then Scarlet's line of "Tyria needs me" could easily be interpreted as "Mordremoth needs me" given that he was whispering in her head. So I've left out the entire "her intentions remain unclear" bit. I only retained that she woke him, hearing voices from an entity within her head (as well as what it whispered to her).
  4. The Mordrem Guard are not corrupted, and Mordremoth's control over sylvari is proximity based as well as willpower and protection from the Pale Tree. I base the first two parts (not corrupted+proximity based) off of the Mordrem Guard met in Rata Novus' story instance, which more or less acts the same way Canach does (Mordremoth's voice is quiet there), and acts unlike any form of dragon minion. To explain their appearance, we know this: sylvari appearance changes based on heavy psychological changes (we've seen this with both Canach and Caithe), and being convinced Mordremoth's voice is their own (what Canach says is how Mordremoth turns sylvari) would result in exactly that. Mordremoth got into their heads and convinced them to act for him, but except those he spawns (e.g., the Mordrem Guard commanders), did not seem to corrupt. I kept this low either way, given that it isn't confirmed, by avoiding mentioning the sylvari were corrupted and instead call it "influence(d)" and "turned".
  5. I am wholely convinced that the Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth's physical body. I base this off of: 1) Mouth speaks in same manner with same voice as Mordremoth; 2) Mouth controls the Mordrem Guard Commanders, Mordremoth's greatest champions aside from Faolain; 3) Mouth and Mordremoth say the same line (Mouth at beginning of his appearance - Mordy in Hearts and Mind when Canach says he's distracted); 4) When Mouth dies, there's an explosion of blue just like Hearts and Mind ending; 5) When Mouth is dead, you can see the base of his body and it grows from vines, indicating that it is - as Trahearne says in Hearts and Mind regarding Mordremoth's body - burrowed into the ground and capable of being regrown just like the Mordrem Guard commanders. Given this, I'm also redirecting Mouth of Mordremoth here given the lack of needing to denote the same figure twice. Especially since all walkthrough data should be placed on the event/story instance articles as appropriate.

I know there's a bit where one can easily say that there isn't enough support for documentation on the wiki, so I won't mind someone coming in and effectively scratching them out, but the previous format was becoming so irksome to me, and with the massive influx of new information, I felt it reasonable to rewrite based off of said new information.
One issue I have, which I'm going to bring up at the community portal because it exists with other NPCs such as Faolain, is how to denote his NPC rank. The mental avatar fought in Hearts and Minds is legendary, while the Mouth of Mordremoth is 'epic' by wiki standards. For now, I went with the greater of the two, as it feels more appropriate.
Finally, I left the infobox image blank for the time being, until we get a better image of the Mouth of Mordremoth. I'll leave the current one at Mouth of Mordremoth.jpg to act as an "alternative image" of Mordremoth. Also added an image I caught of Mordremoth's corpse. And as an aside, we need a better image of his mental avatar. Konig 07:50, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Mouth of Mordremoth screenshot wanted[edit]

I've been trying for days, and I cannot for the life of me get a screenshot of the Mouth that isn't at an awkward angle or obstructed. If anybody can get a good one that shows off all the detail of both the head and body, that would be great.

--Mallas Elerviel (talk) 09:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

TBH I don't think there's anything really wrong with the current one - during that fight the rest of his body usually is at that angle from his head if you're facing him on a platform and it's not often that it's straight. I.e. that's what he would normally look like when fighting him. It's hard to get a screenshot without all the people participating in the event and effects. -Seylan 10:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm just being too picky. If we're sticking with that screenshot, we should make it the main screenshot on the article then. --Mallas Elerviel (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Event section?[edit]

This page is talking about the entity Mordremoth, why do we have an associated events section? This could be filled with (just about) everything post Personal Story, just DS meta, or even only Hearts and Minds. Either way, I don't believe that this subject belongs here at all. -Darqam (talk) 15:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Events/Event involvement sections refer to dynamic events in which NPCs are *personally present*. In this case, it is only the finale of the Dragon's Stand meta. PS instances/Hearts and Minds goes under the Story involvement section, which also lists only the story instances in which an NPC is personally present for. Konig 16:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Feedback 2016/04/04[edit]

The trivia about the Mouth of Mordremoth fight being implemented in 8 weeks is wrong and misleading. The source states that "I recall being told something along the lines of we have one month to create a world boss before code and content. We were given more time in the end. I would say I spent about 8 weeks from concept to final in-game model." Meaning, the work on the MODEL took 8 weeks. There's no statement about how long the development time for the whole encounter was. -- 15:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

The quote says "we have one month to create a world boss before code and content". So in my eyes this means that the Model guy/team had to create the asset before the event and coding for the event went up. I'm not quite sure where this is misleading. The quote is from an artist as well; so I don't see him doing a hell of event programming. -Darqam (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
edit: woops, quote was revised and I'm defending the revision not the original statement; my bad. -Darqam (talk) 18:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


Curious, he's definitely a legendary in the story mode, is there some reason he's listed an "Epic" here? - Doodleplex 23:27, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Mouth of Mordremoth fight. His head and body targets are both of Epic rank. So far, we've just been denoting the highest rank encountered of each NPC. Konig (talk) 23:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be legendary then since that is his highest rank or does the story not count? Or should/could the Mouth of Mordremoth be split into a separate page, as I'm looking at Zhaitan and Mouth of Zhaitan here, and it kinda feels like the same thing to me, "minion that is a part of dragon" and "dragon". - Doodleplex 23:48, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Epic rank is greater than Legendary rank. The Mouth of Zhaitan was just a standard dragon champion, on par to Legendary Axemaster Hareth. The Mouth of Zhaitan is not part of Zhaitan, similar to the Eyes of Zhaitan, or the Claws of Jormag. The Mouth of Mordremoth, however, is Mordremoth's full physical body. It would be like making a page dubbed "Mysterious Stranger" and a second one "Scarlet Briar" because she showed up under the name Mysterious Stranger with a different appearance (somewhat different armor) the first time we saw her during Queen's Jubilee. Konig (talk) 23:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Ah, okay, works for me, though probably should mention the rank difference between his two appearance somewhere. Couldn't hurt anyway. - Doodleplex 01:34, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
I had brought up the matter of NPCs with multiple ranks based on appearance in the community portal (has been archived). No one seemed to care. Konig (talk) 03:27, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Probably because it happens so rarely, and can be resolved with a simple note on the bottom of the page. Or people are lazy and didn't wanna do the code. Or both. - Doodleplex 03:45, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Mordremoth's image in the infobox[edit]

The explanation provided by Matthew Medina on the April 2018 Lore AFC shed some light on Mordremoth's potential origins and how the dragon has grown into more than the sum of its parts as its mind has transcended its physical being (Mouth of Mordremoth which is "Mordremoth in the same way that the vines and roots of the jungle which tear the Pact fleet down is Mordremoth" as Matthew put it). The game shows us a shadowy visage with glowy eyes quite a few times in the last third of the HoT narrative both in cutscene and in-game form (e.g. the cinematic when we enter the Dream and when Mordremoth possesses Trahearne after we've dealt with its Dream avatar). As an entity of Mind and with the aforementioned evidence presented in game (and from the dev comment), the "true" form of the dragon (or as close as we can get to depicting a transcendental entity, anyway) appears to be the shadowy visage depicted in the Face of Mordremoth file. As such I feel that the NPC infobox should be edited appropriately by making that shadowy image the main one for Mordremoth while leaving the bipedal Dream image with the description of mental/Dream avatar and the Mouth of Mordremoth image as a physical avatar in the NPC infobox. Thoughts? --Kossage (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Overall, I think I'm okay with this. My main concern is that most players are more familiar with the snake and/or biped forms, though I'd be okay with putting the shadowy form as the main image so long as the other two are kept as secondary gallery images with clear labels. --Idris (talk) 18:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Made the shadow face the main image and moved Mouth into the Images gallery of the infobox alongside the Avatar. Konig (talk)
That said, we need a better image of the shadowy face. That one I took is from the cinematic which has this blur effect over it. If possible, getting a shot of it from during Bitter Harvest might be best, it shows up just before Kasmeer goes to scout ahead IIRC and that's a nice open, bright spot. Konig (talk) 21:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Spoiler Alert?[edit]

The spoiler alert says 'spoilers relating to the story of Guild Wars 2' but in the first few paragraphs it mentions the Pale Tree being a purified Blighting Tree, which I would consider HoT spoilers. I don't know how to fix the spoiler tag, could someone do it? Thanks. TiffanySmith.8216 (talk) 17:28, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Tweaked it to state Heart of Thorns instead. —Ventriloquist 21:21, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I'd say the sylvari originating from Mordremoth is kinda a general GW2 spoiler, but more specifically it'd be a Season 2 spoiler more than a Heart of Thorns spoiler. Konig (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Infobox image[edit]

Mordremoth channel.png

In my opinion, we should use File:Mordremoth channel.png as the main image on the inbox, rather than File:Face of Mordremoth.jpg. The latter is a blurry screen cap of an in-game cinematic that bears no resemblance to either the Mouth of Mordremoth or the avatar of Mordremoth in Hearts and Minds, whereas the former is a clear, high-resolution of the Mouth of Mordremoth, which players understand as being representative of Mordremoth's physical body. This would also be consistent with the article on Zhaitan where we prefer a clear, high-resolution render to a screenshot. Santax (talk · contribs) 09:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Have you read Kossage's justification for using the shadowy version, a couple of sections above this one? I'm fairly neutral on the matter, but if we do end up switching to your suggested render, it ideally should be reuploaded as jpg. —Idris User Idris signature.png 10:01, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I hadn't, although I have now. I think that the "true" form of the dragon as understood by players would probably be its physical body. The fact that it has a physical body suggests that it isn't purely an entity of mind. So I think the question is about which image players would understand to be more representative of Mordremoth as a whole. I'm not suggesting we go full-GWW in using renders everywhere, but this is the clearest, fullest image of Mordremoth that we have.
With regard to the file format, I actually think png works quite nicely as it means that it blends with the gradient infobox background; see what it looks like here. Santax (talk · contribs) 11:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
The way I see it, the shadowy face of Mordremoth seen in the story (e.g. when it appears to the sylvari Commander upon briefly taking over their mind in Bitter Harvest, or when it appears in the cutscene upon entering the mind and when it observes the final battle against the avatar from the sidelines) does in fact resemble the faces of both the Avatar of Mordremoth and the Mouth of Mordremoth; the current wiki screenshot is indeed blurry and doesn't fully reflect this as it's from a different angle, but a proper frontal view of it very much looks like the aforementioned entities' faces. Furthermore, we have a statement from Matthew Medina (which, unless it's contradicted in future episodes in game, should still be treated as canonical for the time being) where he describes the Mouth being Mordremoth "in the same way that the vines and roots of the jungle which tear the Pact fleet down is Mordremoth" and then going into greater detail what exactly this means according to his interpretation. My suspicion on why they used the Mouth of Mordremoth for Kralkatorrik's channel rather than the Avatar or the "shadowy face" was because it was the closest to a physical manifestation of the Jungle Dragon in game and thus fitting in with the physical manifestations of Zhaitan and Balthazar in the "unholy trinity" of magic. While the idea of Mordremoth's shadow face being the representation of its "overmind" over all its mass and corruption is a theory as HoT itself never fully clarifies the matter outside of Canach and Laranthir's stray comments, Medina's statement does appear to lean on that direction and thus hint at why the Mouth simply wasn't called Mordremoth despite being the dragon's physical body. Another reason why I'd be against using the render, even though it's cleaner than any screenshot, is because pretty much every other entity encountered in game is represented as a screenshot from game rather than via renders (except for the rare cases where getting a clear screenshot of a boss without effects, like Matthias Gabrel's abomination form from Salvation Pass raid, would be nigh impossible), and it'd be jarring to make Mordremoth the exception to the rule. As such, I'd be in favor of keeping the shadowy face as the main representation of Mordremoth with the avatar and mouth shown as additional images like we currently have in the infobox; we just need to get a better frontal screenshot of the shadow face to show how it does in fact resemble both the Mouth and the Avatar in looks. Just my two cents. :) --Kossage (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding to the "true form" situation: this post, as well as the more recent Elder Dragons: Notes from the Field, gives the suggestion that the Mouth of Mordremoth, while the current core body, may not be the original body and that in the past, Mordremoth was more draconian than wurm-like. Given this, and the known ability to enter other bodies (e.g., Trahearne), Mordremoth being an "entity of mind" seems accurate. Regardless of the case, I believe it is best to showcase all three forms, as that is the most accurate and least speculative on our part. I also agree on a better image for the shadow face.Konig (talk) 19:30, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Size of thumbnails[edit]

I disagree with the manual overriding of thumbnails to be 300px. The default thumbnail size is configurable in user preferences, and manually setting it to the largest size causes that to not be respected. I do think that there is a case for setting the default thumbnail size for new users to be 300px, as modern screen resolutions are higher than they were when the wiki was founded a decade ago, but I don't think manually overriding the size of every thumbnail on the wiki is the way to do it. Santax (talk · contribs) 09:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

For clarity, the images are 350px now (larger than default). I agree that discussing the change of default size would be good, and best put in community portal or similar. That said, I don't think that manually setting it is not respectful - every image has different proportions, so 300px would be fine for an image that is more height-based, such as File:Krait obelisk major concept art.jpg, while it's very unhelpful for more width-based images, such as on this page (especially File:Teeth_of_Mordremoth.jpg). The point of overriding the manual size is to ensure every image, of any proportion, are visible to the readers. On top of that, I feel that most people will not know about being able to change the default size - I've been on the wiki for nearly a decade and, myself, did not know about it. Konig (talk) 19:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Section titles[edit]

I think that "History" would be a more appropriate title than "Biography". A biography is a person's life story, so that doesn't fit with the conception of Elder Dragons as eldritch beings from the dawn of time. Similarly, I think "pre-awakening" is more appropriate than early years, as we know basically nothing about Mordremoth's 'early years'. Santax (talk · contribs) 09:57, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

"Biography" and "Early years" are consistent with other articles. I'm generally okay with making exceptions when it makes sense, but this honestly feels a bit nit-picky to me. Descent implied that Kralkatorrik has emotions and was once an ordinary dragon with a mother whom he loved. The same is likely true for the other dragons, in which case terms like "biography" and "early years" seem fine. —Idris User Idris signature.png 10:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Despite the the recent move to establish the Elder Dragons as characters rather than forces of nature, I think it'd still be more accurate to use "History" and "Pre-awakening" for Elder Dragon articles than "Biography" and "Early years" (as it stands, the article doesn't describe anything about Mordremoth's early years - because we know nothing about them, or even if it is meaningful to say that Mordremoth had "early years"), and that accuracy outweighs consistency (and there isn't that many articles that have sufficient detail as to warrant a "Biography" section anyway).
And fwiw, I agree that it's nit-picky, but I feel as though I was never given the opportunity to explain myself before it was reverted. I feel like if I don't stand up for my minor edits, I'll get out-reverted by Konig and they'll be judged as being too minor to be worth discussing. Santax (talk · contribs) 11:13, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Positioning and italicisation of the spoiler tag[edit]

I believe the spoiler template should be moved to be after the infobox, so it doesn't run into the HoT logo. The infobox effectively constrains its width and it looks better. Also, Guild Wars 2, Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns and Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire should be italicised as they are product names, but Living World Season 1, Living World Season 2, Living World Season 3 and Living World Season 4 should not. Santax (talk · contribs) 10:04, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What browser are you using? The spoiler template isn't running into the HoT logo on Chrome. —Idris User Idris signature.png 10:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I am using Safari, but I just checked and the issue is actually with my custom CSS, so it just comes down to a personal preference (I think you'll agree, not worth Konig starting a dispute with me over). The point about the italicisation still stands, though. Santax (talk · contribs) 11:07, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I have a feeling someone will eventually re-italicize the Living World parts just because it'll seem more visually consistent, but I have no complaints if you want to remove it. —Idris User Idris signature.png 11:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Wording of note[edit]

My preferred wording of the note is that "Mordremoth is referred to as the Elder Dragon of Plant and Mind throughout Living World Season 2, but the facet of its magic absorbed by Kralkatorrik after its death is called the Facet of Root and Madness (in contrast to the Facet of Shadow and Death, which corresponds exactly to Zhaitan's established magical domains, and the Facet of Fire and War, which corresponds exactly to Balthazar's established magical domains). This was not an oversight or retcon on behalf of ArenaNet,<ref>Q&A with the Narrative Team - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums</ref> and so may have some as-of-yet unknown significance." This has been changed to, "Mordremoth is referred to as the Elder Dragon of Plant and Mind throughout Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns, but the facet of its magic absorbed by Kralkatorrik after its death is called the Facet of Root and Madness (counter to Zhaitan's and Balthazar's facets reflecting their former titles). When asked, ArenaNet developers stated this was intentional.<ref>Q&A with the Narrative Team - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums</ref>" The meaning of "counter to Zhaitan's and Balthazar's facets reflecting their former titles" is not only far less clear to someone not immersed in the subject matter but also inaccurate; "Shadow and Death" are not titles held by Zhaitan, but the name given to the areas of magic over which it has dominion. Santax (talk · contribs) 11:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

My focus on that change was to make it more concise; in general bullet points should avoid being too long, and I felt that the note could be shorter while retaining its context. Regarding the use of "titles", I do feel that's an accurate term, especially with the recent magazine, but an alternative synonym could be used instead if you still disagree with it. Konig (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
Clarity > conciseness any day, imo. Santax (talk · contribs) 10:11, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Mouth of Mordremoth[edit]

I recall reading somewhere that the Mouth of Mordremoth used to be Mordremoth's physical body before it took root in the jungle, but I haven't been able to find where I read it from. Does anyone know of any support there might be for this claim? Thanks in advance. ~~TiffanySmith.8216 04:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)