Talk:Elder Dragon

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Cycle of awakening

"*The Movement of the World mentions a "cycle" of awakening. Nothing more is known about this statement." We know a bit more about this now from EoD, but I'm a bit of a loss as to how to include it, and don't fully trust my memory of the explanation. Would someone care to give it a try? Manifold 19:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

With or without a spoiler tag and crediting Glint? Also, I believe you're thinking of page 339. Eive 20:29, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Dragon for each race

I know this is speculation, but to me it seems that there is a dragon for each race. (Primordus=Asura - Jormag=Norn - Zhaitan=Human - Kralkatorrik=Charr - "deep sea"=Sylvari (closest to ocean)) --'Mai Yi' talk 01:06, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Not a new hypothesis but considering that the deep sea dragon predates the sylvari race by about 20 years and it has been completely ignoring the five major races, and that Zhaitan also affects norn and asura (sailors), and Kralkatorrik also affects humans (Ebonhawke)... I find that hypothesis is wrong. They're just threats that the playable races are influenced by and why these races are playable. -- Konig/talk 14:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

← moved to User talk:Darke#Dragon for each school of magic

Have to add sylvaris dragon would be Mordremoth, whilst deep sea would be more than likely for the under water life such as the naga who retreated from their homes in the unending ocean.

Champion vs General

Whats the difference between those 2 are they the same rank or 2 different ranks? gw1:The Great Destroyer is first called a general of Primordus but later on he's called a champion. It would be nice if the difference would be made more clearly because now i find that piece of data rather confusing. Damysticreaper 21:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Some champions are generals, others are lieutenants. One's a military rank, probably given by the races of Tyria, the other is just saying that it's the strongest/primary minion/underling of the Elder Dragon (I think). Think of champion as referring to the ED's right-claw man. -- Konig/talk 03:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think general and lieutenant are used as specific ranks, they're more like synonyms for 'second-in-command' (and 'champion') or, from the point of view of the minions, a leader. pling 14:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Well iv'e been giving it a bit of thought but so far it seems like lieutenants and generals are created creatures while champions are creatured corrupted by the power of the elder dragons. Not trying to speculate about it but any thoughts on that? Damysticreaper 21:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Dragonspawn and the Shatterer are definably not corrupted creatures. -- Konig/talk 22:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

possible way to 'deal' with the dragons

this thread will probably be deleted or moved but here I go anyway...

since normal spells/weapons dont work against the dragons, I may have an idea to how to combat these overgrown lizards - we know that "The dragons may not be a united force. An interview implies that the dragons fight among themselves as well as against the races of Tyria." now I wonder who will win, the unmeltable ice of jormag or the unquenchable fires of primordus.... only problem is, how to lure the to into killing each other - if we manage it, we'll get loots for us from both dragons and we get to watch a titanic, catacalymsic fight from a safe distance :D Getefix 22:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Well here goes my reaction to a doomed topic :p.

If you are to use such an concept strategy letting the überdrags duke it out amongst themselfs the next thing that comes to mind: how do you beat death while there is no life dragon and how do you beat water when there is no lightning dragon and how do you beat earth when there is no wind dragon. On paper the strategy works but due to the lack of uhh right materials it cannot be achieved i'm afraid :(. Damysticreaper 19:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Obviously we just KILL IT WITH FIRE! - Infinite - talk 19:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The Elder Dragons are not incarnations of their so-called elements. I personally doubt that Zhaitan's element is death but rather earth - take a look at his so called minions - gray, swampy, and thorny (by that, I mean that their skin and bone are twisted into thorn like designs which is merged into their skin) - all things that can be found with earth. Besides, Jormag also has "undead" under his control. It just seems like Zhaitan's putting the least amount of power into his minions, so they don't take his full element (and in turn means he could only control those who died, unlike Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus who control still living creatures). Plus, the area around Zhaitan shows the same design as his first minions, as does Zhaitan himself. Not to mention he has non-undead minion concept art (these are linked to Zhaitan in the Art of Guild Wars 2 book). -- Konig/talk 20:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

What i have noticed it that the elder dragons can only corrupt certain elements, Primordus seems to be focus around the corruption of fire and brimstone, Kralkatorrik seems to corrupt earth turning it into crystal, Jormag corrupts ice as we can see wit the Icebrood as the destroyers to Primordus and Zaithan corrupts death wich is definitly not an earth element, the dead are usually buried underneath the soil and if not end up there after decomposition hence the earth-like apearance. Anyways the elder dragons do represent certain elements of nature and corrupt it being the exact opposites of the elder gods who are tied to elements. It makes me wonder why the elder dragons should not be be tied to them seeing their powers. Damysticreaper 22:00, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

It's seems less of "they can only corrupt of an element" and more of "they themselves are tied to an element" - Kralkatorrik I wouldn't say is earth either; he has crystals, lightning, black stone, and is described as both a hurrican and sandstorm. He's a cacophony of elements. None of Zhaitan's "undead" were buried either, btw. And I also disagree with corrupting into the opposites - if that were the case, then Primordus would be corrupting cold into heat, Jormag corrupting heat into cold, and Zhaitan (if the undeath was accurate), life into undead. But none of Zhaitan's minions are ever a living to undead state, unlike the others. -- Konig/talk 22:19, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

wow i started off with 'lets make em fight one another and get free loot' but now its turned into a debate on which has what element -.- Getefix 13:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Theory

It seems, minus the "deep sea dragon", that each dragon is connected to a type of magic. Primordus=Destruction. Zhatain=Preservation. Jormag=Aggression. Krakatorak(or however you spell it)=Denial.-- Necro Shea Mo 23:10, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bubbles would be Temptation. - Infinite - talk 23:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bubbles and the Temptations anyone? But on a serious note, that makes quite a bit of sense Necro. :) Speaking of schools of magic... did we ever find out which school of magic each bloodstone was linked to specifically... Aqua (T|C) 23:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember temptation as one of the schools if magic.....-- Necro Shea Mo 02:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

@Necro: Infinite was joking, I think. @Aqua: Not officially. Regarding the links to the dragons, they all seem to be linked to a mind-control-esk/corruptive kind of magic. BTW, the necromancer is assumed to be tied to Aggression, and Zhaitan is most linked to said necromancer profession, and Jormag has hints of Mesmer which is believed to be Denial, and a trait Kralk holds others don't (or rather, the branded hold) is hardened skin (crystals), so he could be said to be Preservation. But the four schools of magic are more linked to the Six Gods, and there's only 4 schools while there are five dragons so... I'm betting that the dragons have no relation to the bloodstone and the four schools of magic (and potentially house a fifth school of magic). -- Konig/talk 02:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

May have been joking a bit.... :P

But regarding this theory, we would need to find another school of magic which might as well be temptation/whatever. As far as I know, Svanir was corrupted by the temptation of attaining power and the Icebrood also beckoned DE's members, amongst others to join it for that very power.

As for the professions: Guild Wars 1 professions were implied to be classified as D&D schools of magics, which is probably still the same for Guild Wars 2. Maybe we can find stronger and/or missing ties there? - Infinite - talk 08:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding GW1 professions: Each of the original four casters (as Rangers and Warriors don't use magic, despite using energy) eached could be argued to be tied to a different attribute (monk=Preservation; ele=Destruction (destroying earth to protect/attack, using fire and air to destroy, warping water/ice to harm); necro=aggression (indirect damage); mesmer=denial (e-denial, interrupts, etc.)); Ritualists are unique in that they used magic before the bloodstones were created, so they're not fully limited to a single school of magic like the other four are (i.e., they can bypass the bloodstones to a degree); Assassins appear to me to use Denial (they're also heavily tied to Lyssa, like Mesmers, thus implying similar magic), and Dervishes I'd argue to be Preservation personally (or aggression); Paragons, if they use magic, is harder to tell.

This changes in GW2 due to roles appearing to mix more, and warriors seem to use magic now (at least via racial skills), so something will be altered with the schools of magic (the Elder Dragons are screwing up the schools!). -- Konig/talk 17:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I have never played GW1 but each dragon seamed to match up with one of the 6 Gods power/identity coincidence or God->dragons example Grenth&Zitan

Thanks, Konig, for the crushing factual logic. Anyway, the dragons are older than the gods, so why would the gods be the only ones to use the schools of magic????-- Necro Shea Mo 01:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Because, to our knowledge, the 4 schools of magic were the gift of the gods. The Elder Dragons (and mursaat, dwarves, seers, at least) could be using/have used magic unrelated to the 4 schools - just as the Ritualists did. -- Konig/talk 17:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, ya, good point...... Still....-- Necro Shea Mo 22:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Second paragraph is incorrect

"Described as forces of nature, akin to a tsunami or earthquake, the Elder Dragons are said to possess no intelligence, motivation or gender that the races of Tyria can currently understand, and they seem unstoppable as they cause widespread destruction across Tyria. However, there have been hints that there is more to these Elder Dragons than it seems."
This is very much incorrect as proven by Edge of Destiny novel. For starters, Jormag is stated in the book to be hating and wanting to freeze all life. Similarly, Kralkatorrik is put on par to a sandstorm both in power and in motivation, the latter specifically in regards to the eye of a storm - he's after something which he cannot obtain, and more it eludes him the harder he tries to obtain it, making it even further away. Also, Kralkatorrik is said to be "calculating" and is stated to be male by Glint. I'll be rephrasing this paragraph completely, just posting this here since the summary doesn't allow enough characters. Konig/talk 03:02, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Every word used to describe Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny is an emotion (rage, anger, fury), there is no sign at all of rational thought. Glint herself describes him (and by the way she says "he"), as a hurricane. Jennah, the mesmer, only senses emotion from Kralkatorrik as well. And that's all Snaff finds in the dragon's mind. And when Snaff tries to calm the dragon's mind it just gets more angry. Seems like it is not capable of anything but emotion and all negative ones at that. I think its insane. Ramei Arashi 18:07, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

What book did you read, because while Kralkatorrik was very angry, he was also described as calculating, as I said above. So it isn't that "every word" is an emotion. There's a thought process to him - something that you've argued against time and time again elsewhere, and are constantly corrected (that seems to be a theme with you and your "arguments"). Konig/talk 18:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Stronger than The Gods

Found this link on a old interview, didn't know it even existed.

Mondes Persistants: ArenaNet is famous for its original design and background. But dragons be dragons. They look probably like the most classic creatures of the Guild Wars world. Nevertheless, how did you work their design for Guild Wars 2? What did you do so your fans don't just go : "oh, dragons... meh"?

Chris Lye: The Elder Dragons are ancient, elemental beasts, exponentially more powerful than any of the dragons players know from Guild Wars. They’re more powerful than the human gods or any other being that has ever been seen in Tyria. Fighting an Elder Dragon is like battling a hurricane or a tidal wave. [1] --DXD 16:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Can't wait to kill one. >:D --BriarThe Spider 20:19, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I did and kinda still do think the dragons are...meh.--Icyyy Blue 20:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

^ ^I kinda agree with you, Icyy. The dragons are kinda meh. Personally, I think they coulda gone wayyyyyy more original and been wayyyyyy more creative with the antagonists. The word dragon is, in my opinion, a most unoriginal way to describe something like these guys.-- Necro Shea Mo 21:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Eldritch abominations>>>>dragons anyday. Konig/talk 22:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I do believe the feeling of meh will go away once you actually see them in-game. Damysticreaper 10:08, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I second that! ^^ --The Holy Dragons 10:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Screw that, I'd be running the other way if it's anything like it was described in the book. --Xu Davella 12:35, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Well we killed some human gods already, Elder Dragons can't be much more of a threat. -crosses fingers in hopes of being wrong- Infinite - talk 13:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Killing Abaddon wasn't realy that special hopefully they do it better with the elder dragons.Draaky 14:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Abaddon wasn't at his full strength. He had just broken out of prison and we were capable of chaining him down. Not to mention that the gods "blessed" us which while could be mere words, could be an unseen effect (I like to think that it kept Abaddon from insta-killing us and dancing removed the blessing :p). With Dhuum, a similar scenario - he had just gotten enough power to break free and we had 7 powerful reapers aiding us, and when we did die, we returned as spirits until Dhuum was defeated (which I assume in "lore" is a situation of the reapers returning the PCs' souls to the bodies). So we never really defeated a human god - that is, one at full strength. Konig/talk 18:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I just hope the dragons are awesome and not just like other dragons....--Icyyy Blue 19:19, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

^^Agree.-- Necro Shea Mo 20:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I do imagine we never fight an Elder Dragon at 100% of their power... - Infinite - talk 21:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I want to see an Elder Dragon go toe-to-toe with... an Elder Dragon.

None shall survive! A F K When Needed 21:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I think there's a big chance elder dragons will fight each other when they meet (it just won't happen in-game probs) and @Ike You won't ever fight a dragon at full strength my Guardian will >:D solo! --The Holy Dragons 21:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

We should not forget that one asura could control "a hurricane and sandstorm" known as Kralkatorrik with his mind. Of course it could be just because of huge asuran ego and lucky Charisma roll. Mediggo 11:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

One asura using the blood of a dragon, a device to make it easier, and having found the loophole in the mental thinking of the dragon. This is after having almost been corrupted himself as well. And do note that it's Jormag, not Kralkatorrik, who's known for the mental capabilities. Being stronger than something doesn't make one mentally stronger/less vulnerable. Konig/talk 17:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I really wish they had kept the Dragons more Lovecraftian in nature, and I think that's what they were originally intended to be, but if that's the case then Anet has definitely fallen into the trap of the Power Fantasy. What I mean is that if you're going to go through the trouble of creating a dragon-Cthulhu hybrid **cough cough** Zhaitan **cough cough**, and then you slap a health bar on it, then you're missing the point of Cthulhu. The primordial forces that the Dragons are supposed to represent are untameable, immortal, and unbeatable. So theoretically the Dragons should be the same. Unfortunately Force-of-Nature villians don't work well in video games outside the horror genre because video games are supposed to make you feel empowered. So Anet basically said "All right, we know the Elder Dragons are supposed to be these big scary things, but we've got to have a satisfying boss-fight at the end, so we've decided that if we band together then the power of friendship will inevitably defeat them." Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of respect for Anet and I love what they've created, but for a game that has successfully created a convincing world with lovable characters and tons of cool lore to study, they don't seem to understand what it means to fight a force of nature. If it's supposed to be like fighting a hurricane, it's not, because hurricanes can't die. What do you all think? Skybax94 (talk) 08:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Size

What i am wondering about is if anet plans on showing the Elder Dragons on the world map. In GW1 we can already see a part of Kralkatorrik on the world map as well as the unnamed champion of Jormag. I do know some of them are hiding but i doubt they could all be underground or underwater. Zhaitan is said to have is lair atop of the city Arah in Orr and knowing the size he roughly has i seriously doubt he would not be seen on the world map, if not it would be quite a graphical screw up on anet's part. Da Mystic Reaper 11:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they're quite big, but as we are not supposed to fight any else dragon than Zhaitan in the initial release, they'd probably rather make their exact location unknown. If there was a rampage of one elder dragon, it could be pointed out on the map as an icon, perhaps. But yeah, I think it's unlikely to see them on map, even if it's less static than in GW1. Mediggo 11:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

According to The Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik is 20 times the size of Glint. Ramei Arashi 18:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Also said to be 1,000 feet high. Konig/talk 18:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

They use the imperial system in Kryta? Surely the asura use metric... Venom20 18:36, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The asura use asurafeet; norn apparently use nornfeet (according to Snaff and Zojja). Asurafeet is more precise.

Though the term "feet" is more literal - the length of a norn or asura's foot - not some measurement of inches. Konig/talk 18:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

"Five against six"

Scholar Trueclaw says something interesting - she names the five ancient races who fought six Elder Dragons the last time. We only know of five. Does "It seems so unfair. And, yet..." mean "And yet they managed to destroy one", or just "And yet the five races still survived" and there's another Elder Dragon out there that the Durmand Priory knows about? pling 23:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

There's several mentions of a sixth Elder Dragon. If you're a member of the Priory, Trueclaw and a few others go into more details - jotun stalae (spelling may be off) describes a sextant of "swallowers", and if you're Whispers, Trueclaw is revealed as a Whisper spy and she goes into more details - that there were five sentient races who fought against six Elder Dragons and lived to tell the tale.

Along with this, there's the area surrounding the Crucible of Eternity - a hexagon structure with color-coded "zones" at the point. Four of them are tied directly to the active ED via their minions appearing during events (and the area filled with their element); Then there's Zone Green" and "Zone Blue (Under Construction)" - the former being verdant and the latter having a pool of water.

I don't think Trueclaw finishes that sentence if you're Priory - but not 100% sure on that. You have to be a member of the Priory to get that line and it's been a while since I heard it second-hand. But it seems that only the Priory and Inquest know about the DSD and the mysterious Sixth (well, quaggan, krait, and largos know of the DSD supposedly). However, I heard there's a line by a Priory member after defeating Zhaitan - something about "one fifth of our goal is done" so they may believe the sixth is dead. Konig/talk 23:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

That's worth putting in the article in some way; if not our conclusions then at least a summary of the NPCs' comments/Inquest stuff. pling 23:36, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I intend to sometime, if someone doesn't beat me to it. A lot more is learned on the Elder Dragons - and Zhaitan particularly - that is missing on these pages. I think I've updated Jormag and Kralkatorrik with what little we've learned, though I haven't been much in Frostgorge or Blazeridge yet. Konig/talk 23:54, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Wait, let me get this perfectly clear. So as we know the Dragons awakened ages ago and wage war with all those races, BUT races survived. How..? Were Dragons defeated or just put to sleep? Those were the same Dragons? Or maybe there were more of them? Questions.... . Surely we have some sort of cycle, so Guild Wars = Mass Effect, Dragons = Reapers :-D --89.74.222.105 12:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not entirely sure how the races survived atm, except that Glint helped hide them after betraying Kralkatorrik. Zhaitan, Jormag, and Primordus are all mentioned in dwarven legends and Kralkatorrik's known to have been around then too. Also, Mass Effect was released during development of GW2, the first was even released after The Movement of the World which had stated they have cycles of awakening - though in reality we only know of one previous rise ~11,300 years prior to GW2. Konig/talk 14:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

From what I understand the dragons went back to sleep on their own when Glint hid the survivor races, no one really knows why. I'm not sure where that account came from though. There is a lot of lore that they seem to keep in a constant state of flux by giving several accounts by different sources and keeping it vague. Kyban 20:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Notes need updating

I noticed that the last note says Zaitan will be the only elder dragon players come in contact with in GW2 release... Does Jormag count as an elder dragon? Or did Jormag not exist at release? Either way I'd like to put an additional qualifier to clarify this statement. - a_Liability

Sure Jormag is an elder dragon, but he's not in release, you're probably thinking the claw of jormag is him, but that's just a leiutenant.--Coltaine 00:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Jormag's not in the game yet. Only the Claw of Jormag. Konig/talk 00:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

my bad, yeah its a lt not the real elder dragon!!

Article for the 6th Dragon

We have a page for "Bubbles" already who is essentially a hypothetical dragon based on strong evidence in game and we recognise him in the list of Elder Dragons, so why can't we add the 6th dragon which is MASSIVELY hinted at during the priory missions and in the Crucible of Eternity Lab where there are 5 areas 1 for each dragon, and a 6th area which is a nature area under construction. If you want further persuasion, WoodenPotatoes explains the evidence in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoALHwPYXfM Even if the 6th dragon is dead, wouldn't it be worth a wiki page, its still part of the guild wars universe afterall! --Sir Biggus of Aggro 13:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

There probably isn't enough info about the sixth to create a separate page for it. It's been mentioned in this article though (and discussed briefly in #"Five against six"). pling 14:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I read that. I would say that we had very little information, perhaps less on Bubbles and still created his page. At the very least we should add something like "6th unknown dragon" to the list at the bottom of the page of Elder Dragons. --Sir Biggus of Aggro 14:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) x2 We have no name or indication for what the sixth Elder Dragon is - therefore, we cannot give it a nickname article. There is no "list of Elder Dragons" either and it's mentioned in this article that there were six Elder Dragons - we don't know if it's living or not, as you yourself said, therefore we cannot really elaborate on it. (Also, Zone Green isn't under construction - that's Zone Blue which is, and that's water based). Furthermore, most of this stuff, including everything from the Crucible of Eternity, is speculation. And we do not include speculation on this wiki. Konig/talk 14:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit: That "list at the bottom of the page" is actually a navbar, not a list, and so it's for links only. Without there being a link... Konig/talk 14:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Got it, lets leave it for the time being then! Cheers for the quick response and information regarding the navbar! --Sir Biggus of Aggro 14:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I actually heard of it being called Mordremoth, or something close to that spelling. It's believed that it's connected to the Sylvari and the Dream and was discovered by an Inquest experiment called Subject Alpha. It's not the dragon itself, but something else. It's rumored that Mordremoth it the cause of corruption in the Nightmare Court as well. I can't remember where I found it and there was a lot more detail.

Zone Green

Note: the following was moved onto the talk page by Mediggo with the edit summary "moving speculation regarding the supposed sixth dragon to talk page because atm it as more to do with inquest and CoE than elder dragons or their -known- history".

The sixth known dragon, mentioned in the ancient texts, has not yet been known to have any noticeable impact on the world—it may have even been defeated in the previous cycle, or it may simply be dormant still. However, the asura lab atop Mount Maelstrom, where the Inquest are attempting to harness the power of the Elder Dragons for themselves, is built in a hexagonal structure—one zone for each Elder Dragon. Four of the zones correspond to known dragons, and one of them remains under construction (although the water pipes filling the room seem to indicate that it is intended to eventually house a captured minion of the deep sea dragon). The final zone, guarded by the IQ1800 LX golem, has a nature theme resembling the Dream of Dreams (as seen in the sylvari starting quest, in which the player fights the Inner Nightmare). Additionally, when the golem guard is defeated, it leaves a binary message which spells out "PALE TREE".(ref)The New Guild Wars 2 Daily - 5/10/12 - YouTube(/ref)

I strongly disagree that this paragraph doesn't have much to do with the Elder Dragons, and I definitely think that it deserves a place somewhere on the page, as it is information which will be new, interesting and relevant to readers of the page. I also disagree that it is "speculation"; the only speculative sentences are "it may have even been defeated in the previous cycle, or it may simply be dormant still", "seem to indicate that it is intended to eventually house a captured minion of the deep sea dragon" are actually tangential to the rest of the paragraph and can't be construed as misleading in any meaningful way. The rest of the paragraph is simply a statement of facts, the only thing remotely speculative about it is a supposition of any link between them. --Santax (talk · contribs) 10:36, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

First off, that paragraph has nothing to do with history of Elder Dragons, so I opted to move it to this talk page because I couldn't figure a place for it in the current article. Secondly, you said it yourself: Any link between the sixth dragon of the past and Inquest building their test chambers in form of a hexagon is speculation. The Zone Blue is most likely is meant for the DSD, though I've yet to witness any concrete source indicating that the chambers have anything to do with the dragons in the first place, though I'm willing to take your word on that matter (I hope there's at least dialogue in game which indicates that, otherwise, it's pure speculation that Zone Red relates to fiery Primordus). Furthermore, regarding the Zone Green, it may just as well be a chamber meant for the Pale Tree, as the binary dialogue of the destroyed golem seems to imply. That, either, has nothing to do with the sixth dragon of the past. The section above also concluded that there currently isn't enough information of the sixth dragon's existence, so it was decided to be left out. All in all, while the paragraph has much facts and it definitely has a place – somewhere else – on the wiki, none of them directly relate to the sixth dragon of the past. Mediggo 10:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The above section concluded that there wasn't enough (specific) info to create a separate page, not that there wasn't enough to mention it at all. The evidence of a sixth dragon is pretty solid (the Whispers agent in the Durmand Priory says it explicitly). Also, the video linked says that an event calls Zone Black the Zhaitan lab or something, so the link between zones and Elder Dragons is, in my view, reasonable to make. It's all definitely worth including in the article. pling 10:54, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

As pling said, the link between the lab and the dragons is made explicit in the video reference, the relevant bit starts around the 15m45s mark I think, but throughout the video the character in the footage visits most of the different zones, including Zone Green, so you can see for yourself the resemblance to the Grove. The exact wording of what WoodenPotatoes says about the lab is "Also, I would just like to add one thing: some people might refute this theory and say, "Oh, they're just zones, they're just colours, but you have no proof that they've actually been tied to Elder Dragons." Well, going back to that meta event that you have to complete, while you are in the process of the meta event you're told to take out every single zone. When you go to Zone Black and you destroy Zone Black and complete that event, if you look on the UI and read the gold reward that you got, it says "Disrupt the Zhaitan Lab", it doesn't say "Zone Black", it specifically mentions Zhaitan. So, at the very least that chamber is tied to an Elder Dragon and the game openly admits it, we can only assume that the others are too." --Santax (talk · contribs) 11:11, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Like I said, I haven't heard of any in-game source explicitly say there currently is six dragons in the world until now. But if the agent is clearly implying that he is talking about present day dragons, then that knowledge should definitely be on the article. Nothing of that still relates to the speculation of CoE experiments being linked to the sixth dragon, however, and idea of the Pale Tree secretly being an Elder Dragon (or why else would the golem proclaim PALE TREE while people are claiming the chamber to be linked to the sixth dragon), considering how it is apparently opposed to them. Mediggo 11:16, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

And note: While the dragons are opposed to each other, the Pale Tree and its spawn are opposed to the general threat posed by the dragons, not just the ones we know to exist. Mediggo 11:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The CoE experiments are linked to all the dragons - the whole point of the Crucible is so the Inquest can gain control of the dragons' power for themselves. We know that one of the labs is related to Zhaitan, we've seen an icy lab, a lava lab and a lab with branded crystals, so are you saying this is all a coincidence? What are the other two labs if not dragon-related? What alternative theory do you propose? And the removed section doesn't mention the idea that the Pale Tree is secretly an Elder Dragon at all, because there is nothing to suggest that. All we know is that there is some link between the sylvari and the sixth dragon. It could be that the Pale Tree is just a general, or that the sylvari of the Maguuma tree avoided becoming minions of the dragon because of the Ventari tablet, or that the sylvari will become enthralled when the sixth dragon wakes. But you will notice that none of these ideas appear in the paragraph either, because really, we have nothing to suggest that any of them are true. All we can say is that there is some sort of a link, and that's all that the removed paragraph does say (in fact, it doesn't even go that far, it literally simply states what is in Zone Green and allows the reader to draw their own conclusions). --Santax (talk · contribs) 11:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, even the speculation is interesting enough to document. I'm guessing others will find it interesting too. If we put the speculation under a speculation header and show the evidence for the particular speculative conclusion(s) we're drawing, that'd be fine; the "speculation" header would be enough of a caveat, and people can read into the interesting stuff. It would also serve as a historical note should the speculation turn out right/wrong. pling 11:51, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The Zone Green is obviously linked to the Pale Tree and rest of the zones are also rather obviously related to the other five dragons. I've never said that is untrue. I even like the idea of the Pale Tree and the rest of the seeds being minions or the sixth dragon, but 1+1 does not equal 3. Now, if you can provide a reliable source (i.e. screenshot or video) of in-game dialogue saying that sylvari are linked to the sixth dragon, as you mention, we'll be getting ahead a lot. Mediggo 11:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with documenting speculation - that should be left to forums. We have no indication that the Infinite Coil Reactor is solely for Elder Dragons; there is no resemblence to the Dream of Dream in Zone Green - it's vegetation and poison, nothing more. The binary code does not spell out Pale Tree, Wooden Potatoes was wrong about it, and someone on Guru2 double checked this. But nonetheless, the wiki is for facts and that is speculation. Konig/talk 12:39, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The game is more than just dialogue, and documenting the game is more than just copying dialogue. I feel it's a bit of a disservice to readers not to include the large, plot-related/world-scale ideas that are inferred or deduced from the game. ANet likes to imply stuff when it comes to lore, and that's as much a part of the game as a quest or item. But maybe that's a discussion for another time and place... pling 12:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Implications of whatever's happening in Crucible of Eternity belong to article about CoE. Providing information that may be misleading (which it was, in this case) is just as equally a disservice to readers than not providing speculative ideas. It is a loss, but some folks hold this wiki in very high, god-send like regard due to its official status so we should uphold to that with reliability. So, what does the golem's binary code actually say, if anything meaningful? Mediggo 13:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Where have I ever said that we should only document dialogue? I did not. While it's true four points do regard Elder Dragons, and the fifth is implied from dialogue, nothing states that the Infinite Coil Reactor's sole purpose is to research Elder Dragon magic - we know for a fact that the Inquest are a wide-spread group in regards to their research. We also know for a fact, from nearby NPCs, that the Infinite Coil Reactor was built to replace their lab at the Thaumanova Reactor which blew up due to their research on chaos magic - in other words, they are researching Chaos Magic at the Infinite Coil Reactor as well (most likely), which is further supported by the area south of the infinite Coil Reactor, which has a handful of creatures popping in dazed just as they do at the Thaumanova Reactor and Toxal Bog (including, I noticed, steam creatures which aren't native to the area).

We should denote all facts. Dialogue and not. However, currently there is nothing but implications linking the Zone Green or Experimental Green Lab (a zone in the dungeon full to the brim with the various Husk enemies the Nightmare Court uses, as well as Nightmare Hounds) to the sixth Elder Dragon. In fact, it is in my personal opinion that there is more evidence countering this notion (and the notion that the Pale Tree is directly related to said sixth Elder Dragon) - ranging from the sylvari immunity to Kudu's self-preserved will after infusing draconic energies in himself to the complete lack of plant-based skills by both Kudu's Monster and Subject Alpha who have abilities from all dragon minions that the Inquest have experimented on and they have indeed experimented on the Husks (I surmise from all evidence gleaned on both sides, and not just the side supporting the silly Pale Tree=a dragon hypothesis, that the Inquest are trying to find out the cause of the immunity to dragon magic that sylvari have, rather than experimenting on them due to them being dragon minions).

As such, I state with absolute conviction that the information on the Infinite Coil Reactor and Zone Green in direct relevance to the Zone Green and Experimental Green Lab are thus not suited for this page, but instead should be denoted on Infinite Coil Reactor, Zone Green, or Experimental Lab Green - perhaps even Crucible of Eternity once that gets split between location/lore, story, and exlorable pages like Ascalonian Catacombs. I am not saying "do not document this" I am merely saying, instead, "do not document this here as connecting it to the Elder Dragons is the speculation that we should leave for the players themselves to connect the dots" Konig/talk 13:28, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much what I said in my original edit summary where I moved the paragraph away from the article. And just to clarify that dialogue issue I think I started, I meant that dialogue provided in game is far more reliable than in-game implications interpreted on a YouTube video cited as a source in an article. IMHO, to prove something like the speculation of at least six elder dragons being currently present AND that Inquest has knowledge of the sixth dragon AND that they are going to experiment on it, as a FACT, we need a word-to-word quote of that. Mediggo 14:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily a word-to-word quote, but more than these rather loose ties, which are actually loose when you look at the whole picture. Konig/talk 14:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Konig, what I'm hearing is "I think the idea that the sylvari are related to the Dragons is 'silly', so I'm going to pretend that the evidence isn't there." We know that the Infinite Coil Reactor is built atop the Crucible of Eternity, the purpose of which is to find a way of controlling the Elder Dragons' magic, and that within the Infinity Coil there are six zones, five of which are clearly meant to correspond to a dragon. Surely the simplest explanation is that the sixth is also meant to correspond to a dragon, rather than the idea that the Inquest are capturing sylvari to study their immunity (which I'm sure at some point they will have done, but why would they have done it in Zone Green when it is otherwise like the other zones in every other way?), and that this somehow has something to do with chaos magic. No, Zone Green is clearly foreshadowing, the fact that you don't like the story that ANet are trying to tell should be irrelevant. The fact that Experimental Lab Green contains Nightmare Court subjects makes it more likely IMO, not less - if you would consider any sylvari corrupt, would it not be the Nightmare Court? I think at the very least we should be noting on the page about Zone Green, and that the sixth dragon seems to be nature-related. The fact that it contains sylvari-type seed plants and Nightmare Court (in the lab) are bonuses. --Santax (talk · contribs) 19:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) My feelings regarding the theory of sylvari tied to the sixth Elder Dragon are irrelevant, as you said, and I have kept them out. If you want to debate that theory, feel free to prompt me on my talk page as this is not the place for such. Furthermore, I merely stated that we do not have definitive proof - regardless of form - that Zone Green is about the sixth Elder Dragon. Likely? Yes, I concur. Proven? No. Therefore, speculation. And as said, speculation does not belong on the wiki. This information should, as I said, be kept to the Zone Green, Infinite Coil Reactor, and so forth articles as that is where we have facts relating to. That is all. I have not once brought my opinion on the hypotheses at hand into call. Konig/talk 20:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion either way on whether the Pale Tree is an Elder Dragon or whatever - I don't think I've played enough of the game to make a judgement. The "definitive proof" you seek obviously doesn't seem to be there, but if you yourself agree that Zone Green, like the other five, correspond to a dragon, then I don't see what the problem is - this seems to be argument for the sake of argument. By your logic, we should be removing the note from the Quaken Frostraven page stating that it is "likely" that the grave is a reference to the GW1 player (despite the fact that it obviously is) until there is a little asura NPC standing next to it saying "Hey everyone, this grave is literally a reference to Quaken Frostraven, Live Team member Andrew Patrick's Guild Wars character". You're arguing from the point of view of someone doesn't seem to exist. Including inferences that were obviously included by ArenaNet to be interpreted by players in a certain way hardly counts as speculation, especially since what was removed did not actually make any conclusions from the way it was worded - it just stated what was in-game and allowed the reader decide for themselves whether it meant anything. I'm going to re-add the removed paragraph until we have someone who seriously doubts that it means anything, since otherwise there is a consensus that Zone Green is Elder Dragon-related. --Santax (talk · contribs) 22:11, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

What I or you believe is irrelevant. What's relevant is merely the facts. There is no fact proving that Zone Green=related to Elder Dragon. For all we know, the Zones (and in turn, the Labs within CoE) merely represents the major experiment areas of the Inquest. As such, Zone Black is merely where they're experimenting on risen; Red to destroyers; and so forth, with Green being a non-ED Nightmare Court experimenting. There are dozens of reasonable possibilities that are just as likely as Zone Green=Sixth Elder Dragon zone.

As to Quaken - technically, that page should probably get deleted. The person who made that, and similar pages, of the graves of those found in Ebonhawke did so in an incorrect format - the objects in game are Gravestone (or maybe Tombstone) by name, not by the name that's on there (the same issue exists for The Founding). And if you want to get technical Trivia is not the same at all to the primary text of an article. Konig/talk 22:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, we know for a fact that Zone Black is the Zhaitan Lab. And you completely sidestepped the point I was trying to make here, which was that clearly, there is nobody in-game explicitly stating that the grave is a reference to Andrew Patrick, and yet we document it as such on the wiki because it obviously is, beyond a reasonable doubt, a reference to Andrew Patrick. Exactly the same principle applies here - unless someone seriously and reasonably doubts that Zone Green is related to the "Green Dragon", then we should document it as such. --Santax (talk · contribs) 17:42, 28 October 2012 (PDT)

I sidestepped that comparison because it is of a different situation. We have two names to compare. We know Anet loves references. It's not a far call for such, and we are careful not to state it as fact. However, this is a reference, and not lore. That is where the situations diverge, and as such, how we should treat them. If we claim that Zone Green is related to the sixth Elder Dragon as a fact, we falsify information. It may be dedicated to studying sylvari, not due to them being dragon minions, but because the Inquest wants to know why they're immune to dragon corruption. That is equally - if not more - plausible than being related to the sixth Elder Dragon, considering we don't even know if the Inquest knows there are six ED. There's too many unknowns, too many variables. This is a far larger situation than a mere easter egg and reference situated solely around a single name comparison. Konig/talk 18:20, 28 October 2012 (PDT)

Yes, it's a far larger situation than the easter egg example I gave, but the fact that it is exactly the same principle in play serves to demonstrate the absurdity of your position. It's not a far call in that situation, but it is a call nonetheless, a speculative statement, belief, no matter how minor. This is no different - Zone Green is obviously a reference to a sixth dragon, and we have, as you have said yourself, yet to meet anyone who seriously believes otherwise. Of course, none of this is relevant to the discussion we are having because in the last revision you reverted there is nothing stating as fact that the sixth zone is related to the Elder Dragon. Obviously the suggestion is there by the very presence of the information (otherwise you would be right to say, as you did earlier, that the information belongs on another page of the wiki), but the judgement is ultimately left to the reader. There is no "falsified information" here, and I'd ask that you not accuse me of such. --Santax (talk · contribs) 20:45, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

You're ignoring the fact that lore != easter egg. They are treated differently. End of story.

As to the revert - the actions of the Inquest are irrelevant to this article (that is, they're not directly relevant to Elder Dragons), only being (directly) relevant to Inquest, Crucible of Eternity, and Infinite Coil Reactor - the information you're so adamantly trying to add here belongs there, as I have said repeatedly. It also holds speculative which, once more, we do not include on articles - except, again, easter eggs (but even then we denote when it's not confirmed). Konig/talk 21:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

notes

only zhaitan is encountered, sunless is just a champion, kralkatorrik isnt encountered but his champion is and jormag isnt encountered but his champion is Getefix 20:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Dragons and the Six Human Gods theory

Primordus(Destroyers, fire) ---> Balthazar(God of Fire)
Jormag(Icebrood, Ice) ---> Grenth(God of Ice)
Zhaitan(Risen, darkness) ---> Dwayna(God of life(Zhaitan's blood magic gives life again to those who died))
DSD(Water) ---> Lyssa(God of Water)
Kralkatorrik(Branded, crystals) = Melandru
Unknown 6th Elder Dragon = Most likely Kormir. Kormir stands for order, spirit and truth, a little bit like Kodan, Tengu or Sylvari, maybe he has to something with one of these races?
Kormir was the last of the six Gods to appear, so is this unknown 6th dragon.
Opinions? - Landon144 21:59, 13 November 2012 (CET)

Except that it doesn't work out. Firstly, it should count to the original gods - meaning not Grenth and Kormir, but Dhuum and Abaddon. Dhuum is not tied to ice, therefore Jormag-Dhuum doesn't work; Zhaitan is tied to necromancy, not life, therefore Dwayna doesn't work but Dhuum would. Lyssa was not originally the god of water, but took that domain over after Abaddon's death so DSD-Abaddon at best. But this leaves Lyssa without anything and Jormag without anything, but they don't match up. The unknown Sixth dragon is hinted to be nature based, which thus would fit more with Melandru than Kralkatorrik - and thus we're left with 2 ED that don't fit any god, and 2 gods that don't fit any ED - Jormag/Kralkatorrik, and Dwayna/Lyssa.

Your thoughts have been overdone to the nth degree, by the way. Besides, we're practically told that the gods and Elder Dragons don't have a direct connection in the game (with Zhaitan able to twist the magic of five gods (excluding Kormir/Abaddon) and being outright stated to be stealing from Grenth). Konig/talk 22:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Elder Dragon Names

How does Tyria know what the dragons are named? I've been looking for a while and cant quite find anything that answers that question. So, how does the population of Tyria know the names of 4 dragons who haven't been around or named in any texts in over 11,300 years? It's an interesting conundrum. Tancred Spitfire 05:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

In the olden days before the existence of man, no name struck more fear in the hearts of the Karka and other creatures inhabiting the rolling waters of the Unending Ocean as Bubbles, King of the Depths.--Relyk ~ talk > 06:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

There were survivors from the last time the elder dragons rose. The dwarves were among them - they had Zhaitan's name. Presumably the other names came from the other survivors, or from those mysterious-but-unexplained "ancient relics" we find in hearts and in the story. There was also Glint. And maybe the dragons don't have names of their own as such, but instead are named by other races; in which case, anything goes. The Risen do call Zhaitan Zhaitan, though, so maybe that's another source of names. pling 18:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, both good points. I forgot about the dwarves and the jotun being around for ages. They would both have knowledge, even if second-hand, of the dragons. Tancred Spitfire 19:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

6 dragons, 6 gods

Hi, I don't edit wiki much (thank you guys for all your work) so I can't (am too lazy to) check if this came up somewhere else, please feel free to delete this if it's wrong. I was in a disscussion with "Siguard Greymane" in the straigts of devestation and we noticed an intresting pattern. The gods 'aquire' their power, abbadon from the spider god, komir from him, there seem to be 6 sources of power, and 6 dragons. Kral (defeated by illusion, purple) is the power lyssa uses, jormag (ice) is grenth/dhum, , green dragon is mel, primordios (fire and the chaos required for true heorism/creation) is blath, zhitan is dwyana (life death, love hate, can only be undersood in opposition to each other), abbadon/komir is bubbles (in the saviour of tyria missions you fight the devouts, the devout of illusions, devout of nightmares, both of which fit with abb, and the devout of the depts, bubbles), etc, so maybe the gods get their power from the dragons. If this isn't a new theory then sorry for repeating, I thought it was intresting. Bowan Stargazer 78.127.51.207 19:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems unlikely given the mythology of the gods, they arrived from across the mysts already powerful and settled in Arah because they sensed a great power there already and didn't realize it was a dragon. Seems a like a big thing to miss though. The similarities might have to do with how ambient magic works but there isn't too much confirmed lore on that. A similar theory is also mentioned earlier on this page, a little reading can go a long way =P. Kyban 19:55, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

The order of awakenings...

The order of awakenings has been a very hot topic lately, due to the final cut scene of LS2 e2 ("The Eternal Alchemy"/Omadd's Machine). Much of the discussion here refers to the awakenings described in the cutscene being incorrect from what we've been told before.

Please be aware though: the awakening dates, as described on this page, hasn't (to my knowledge) been cofirmed to be cannon. Rather the opposite: our main source (?), The Elder Dragons specifically tells ut that "We know not when these Elder Dragons came to be, only when we came to be aware of their awakening.". Titus The Third 14:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

To summarize the Omadd's Machine stuff: If we assume that the colors of the six 'orbs' in the video correspond roughly to the characteristics of the six elder dragons, then we have, in order:

• Bottom-left: Red - Jormag.
• Top-left: Light blue - DSD? Also may be Jormag. It's unclear whether Jormag or the DSD awoke FIRST.
• Bottom-right:White - Jormag? See above.
• Left-Middle: Brownish-Green - Zhaitan. Note that this is also the one that 'crashes', signifying Zhaitan's defeat.
• Top-right: Purple - Kralkatorrik.
• Right-Middle: Yellow-green: Mordremoth.

I think this brings in some interesting questions about whether Jormag or Bubbles awoke first.50.243.51.251 22:05, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't mean to start a discussion here. Only wanted to point out that the dates describing the awakenings within this article should maybe be considered estimates at best, and not finite truths.

@Poster above: there's a lot of discussions and theories about this topic at the official forums. I suggest you go there if you want to discuss possible theories :) Titus The Third 23:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Orb colours?

I propose a revert. Don't see how the orb colours are relevant, at least not for the table itself. The orb association is also not from the cinematic, but from the New Krytan letters seen on The All design first seen during Hidden Arcana. Instead of listing orb colours etc., I think it is better to simply refer to "The All" within the main article and/or under the "See also" section. Titus 19:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Story journal for The Machine relates the orbs to the dragons, actually. But I agree. Going to make a variety of changes because I see quite a few things irking me atm. Konig 21:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

By "the orb association" I meant: "the 'who-is-who' association". :) Titus 23:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah, your made it sound like "orbs are dragons" Konig 01:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Spheres of Influence

I think the spheres of influence for dragons not specifically named should be changed to 'unknown.' While some are obvious or could be easily guessed (it is reasonable that Jormag's influence is ice and spirit/faith) others might not be as straightforward as they appear. For instance Kralkatorrik is listed as crystal, but could as easily be chaos, which is associated with both electricity and crystals in Tyria. Sentinel Forgebound (talk) 04:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Excluding Chaos Crystal Cavern there is no specific association between chaos and crystals. Crystals in general are associated with being able to hold magic within them, which could easily be the situation behind Chaos Crystal Caverns (the crystals have soaked up chaos magic, that is). And Kralkatorrik is never associated with chaos. I do not deny your argument on listing the spheres, however, but it does seem like the first sphere is how the dragon is referred to ("Elder Plant Dragon" "Elder Death Dragon" - thus Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Ice Dragon, and Elder Crystal Dragon would logically also hold those spheres). Argument goes both ways. Konig

Speculation: Kralkatorrik spheres of influence

Going on each dragon having 2 spheres of influence and the upcoming Shatterer overhaul seeming to have a lot of lightning / storm things mentioned, do you guys think Kralkatorrik's spheres will end up being Crystal / Storm? BlauRascon (talk) 18:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

While there's a lot of ties to lightning, there's a lot of ties to sky/air in general. Remember that the Zephyrite skills are effectively also Kralkatorrik's domain in the same sense sylvari plant skills are Mordremoth's. In Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik also uses golden fire, fierce winds, and sandstorms. So I'd say it's more likely to be Crystal / Air; but it's all speculation and thus doesn't belong on the article. Konig 11:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Yup, just speculation. I'm curious! Air would make sense, too... plus, the "ominous winds are blowing" thing when Shatterer shows up. BlauRascon (talk) 19:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Are there any maps/zones that don't have any elder dragon minions at all?

Not counting sylvari NPCs, are there any maps that lack any branded/risen/icebrood/mordrem/destroyers?
I'm thinking Plains of Ashford, Queensdale, Metrica Province, Southsun Cove, but I may be wrong. --138.75.144.128 23:59, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Metrica has some Destroyers in it when you do the event chain that takes you through the portal in the southeast. I think the rest you listed are clear, as well as Diessa Plateau and Harathi Hinterlands --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Awake vs Active

This would be a pretty big change to the page so I am explaining what I plan on doing, so that I can get some feedback on it. The whole reason I came on here to do this was because of a debate I had in-game. Basically it was about whether the Elder Dragons where "awake" or not. On the wiki page it says that they are awake when they rise up and start trying to destroy everything, so they can eat all the magic, but in the game the characters always refer to that as "active". For example when (spoiler warning) Taimi talks about Primordius and Jormag in Living World Season 3 she says that they are "active". In my understanding there is a difference between "awake" and "active", like how you are awake early in the morning but maybe not active till later. I see elder dragons as being "awake" long before they are active, and they are "awake" when their minions are around. The minions cause some trouble and probably collect some magic to fully activate their associated dragon, like they are making him a cup of coffee. Then when they are actively trying to consume magic, and destroy the world in the process, they are "active". If the minions are only around when the Dragons are "awake" it would explain how the destroyers suddenly appeared in Guild Wars. Before I make some changes and add a new section to go along with this I wanted to get some feedback. Fragments of Grenth 22:07, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The article states when they wake up this cycle. This means they're no longer sleeping. They may or may not be active. What the NPCs refer to as active is actively launching assaults and hordes of minions. An Elder Dragon must be awake to be active. Primordus woke up in 1120 AE, which is what the article states. Primordus and Jormag were active in the past - such as when they woke - but became inactive for a time. One can easily argue that Jormag was active during the PS due to all the champions it had sent south to do various things (such as The Dragon Beast sent to eat Minotaur), and Primordus was called active during Edge of Destiny when it sent the Destroyer of Life to attack Rata Sum. Similarly, all Elder Dragons are active in their waking years - just as Mordremoth was. Also, minions can be around when their Elder Dragon isn't awake (such as during Eye of the North). Elder Dragons becoming "active" doesn't require minions going out to collect magic - technically, minions going out to collect magic is what they always do, but if they do it in organized raids their Elder Dragon is considered "active" while if they do it with their passive shambling about (like Destroyers were throughout the PS and until S3), then their Elder Dragon is considered "inactive".

The article never talks about Elder Dragons being "active" - one could put the definition there, but explaining the known times an Elder Dragon was active feels more appropriate on the individual Elder Dragons' articles.

Weakness

Should we be adding the known weaknesses of the each dragon to their own pages since we know all of them except for the DSD? Sorn Caldoron (talk) 02:06, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

On the topic of spoilers

It should be fairly obvious that this page needs some proper spoiler warning, especially after the ending of Season 4. There are multiple ways we could treat this, either with a simple banner at the top and simply writing everything below without further hesitation, or by displaying only the state at the start of the game by default, and hiding everything else behind expandable spoiler sections. However, we are currently doing a mix of both, which I believe to be the worst possible option. What is the point behind hiding Aurene from the list of Elder Dragons but then displaying two images of her in the History and Gallery sections anyway? Why do we show Kralkatorrik died in Descent but not that Aurene replaced him?

I would personally prefer to fully go down the route of only display the initial state and hiding everything else in spoiler sections, which would include:

• having two tables with lists of EDs: "At the start of Guild Wars 2" displayed by default (wihout any mention of any of their deaths), and "Currently" hidden in a spoiler section (which would include Primordus and Jormag put to sleep, the deaths so far, and Aurene);
• hiding several paragraphs in "Nature and physiology" and "Recent developments" in spoiler sections for their respective expansions or seasons;
• removing Aurene's image from the gallery;
• removing the catch-all spoiler warning at the top of the page as it would no longer be needed.

14:26, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I argue that having both tags is the most ideal. The banner at the top tells readers that there will be spoilers in the article, and allows us to write "minor spoilers" without qualm (such as the revelations of Arah explorable like Glint's origins, that they're tied to the survival of the world as revealed in Season 3, or the notion that Elder Dragons can be replaced, revealed in Path of Fire). The largest spoilers (such as sylvari origins or Aurene becoming an Elder Dragon) then go under spoiler tags, hidden from the cursory view. A spoiler tag at the top is useful to warn "hey, there will definitely be some kinds of spoilers" but in such a larger article, doesn't help in pointing out where those spoilers are.

I'm not opposed to removing the "Status" column in the table, since that is fairly spoilerific; same with Aurene's image in the gallery (which is shown above anyways). But I'm unsure of the need to hide anything in Nature and physiology. As for "Recent developments", I do see the use of such, but as it stands we'd have three tags hiding 1-2 paragraphs each which seems needless. Konig (talk) 15:51, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, keeping the spoiler tag at the top makes sense. I tried to hide most of the bigger spoilers now, but only with broader spoiler sections to avoid the four or so sections we would otherwise end up using. I hid a portion of the "Nature and physiology" section as well because it directly talks about some of the deaths that we already wanted to hide from the table. There could still be some spoilers in the references but I'm not really sure what to do with those and it shouldn't be anything too major just yet. 17:04, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Can we be sure Aurene became an Elder Dragon? In Descent Kralkatorrik says:

• Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!
• Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

Which I interpret as her being something new or at least an improved version of an Elder Dragon. —Kvothe (talk) 18:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, when you talk to Caithe in the Epilogue, you get:

• Caithe: You're not really sure though, are you? That Aurene is coming back.
• <Character name>: She's an Elder Dragon now. All bets are off.

While you could argue whether the player character is knowledgeable enough to categorize her current state of being correctly, it is fairly direct. 19:39, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Devs confirmed in Guild Chat last Friday that she's an Elder Dragon now. What Kralk meant by "first of her kind" is that the magic inside her isn't conflicted like inside Kralkatorrik (and as it's implied, in the other Elder Dragons). At least for now. Konig (talk) 22:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying her status. —Kvothe (talk) 00:06, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

While we're talking about that, the screenshot about Aurene as an Elder Dragon has been removed from the spoiler section and she is now the only one with no picture in the page. --Marcellocobra (talk) 09:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Also the gallery contains spoiler images for Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth --Marcellocobra (talk) 09:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

And probably also Zhaitan, that is revealed at the end of the main personal story (while Primordus, if I'm not wrong, was shown in the first Guild Wars) --Marcellocobra (talk) 09:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I've been considering just hiding the screenshot gallery section behind a spoiler as well for these exact reasons but I also felt like it might be going a bit overboard. I definitely think we should add Aurene somewhere on the page, or even images like the fight in The End, but I'm not sure what's the best way about it. 13:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I think that the best way may be indeed a spoiler section in the gallery, as you suggested. It would allow to add the info about Aurene and avoid all the spoilers about every GW2 dragon. I still remember the surprise when I saw Zhaitan for the first time. --93.48.254.48 14:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I think people would expect to see the Elder Dragons' appearances if they come to this page, especially with a spoiler tag at the top. We also spoil the Elder Dragons' appearances in the size comparison images, not just screenshots. IMO, they don't need to be put under a collapsing tag because they fall under the top tag. Aurene's a different matter in this, though, and would say her appearance as an Elder Dragon should be hidden. I would put it with the hidden tables under "List of Elder Dragons". Konig (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Deep sea dragon's domain

There's been one too many reverts on the list of elder dragons table lately, so let's talk about it. Some people feel that we should add Water as DSD's domain because Taimi speculates as such in Elder Dragons: Notes from the Field: "Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified."

Personally, I disagree that this confirms anything. While it's very, very likely that DSD will have control over water and the ocean, we don't know for sure; we just have speculation from an asuran researcher. This is good lore in its own right and absolutely deserves to be documented on Deep sea dragon, but it doesn't belong in the table on this article, unless we qualify it as "likely to be water".

By the way, User:Tazztannl: you keep adding "fear" as well as water; what's your source for this? —Idris 21:12, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

"Fear" and "Secrets" are two very popular player theories for the DSD's second domain - much as Sky/Air and Soul/Spirit and Earth/Destruction were for Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus respectively. I've seen no confirmation or official sources that even imply it.

As for Water being the domain - prior to the magazine, I'd say the chances of it were fairly 50/50, as the belief of it by players came from it corrupting water (from The Movement of the World, which has been retconned numerous times by now - including the DSD's own entry), but the first domain tends to be what the Elder Dragon corrupts into rather than from (though they do tend to do like-into-like, e.g., Primordus, Zhaitan, and Mordremoth). With Taimi calling it "the Water Dragon" I'd say the chances are raised significantly higher, but again, it's not confirmed. After all, Primordus is called "the Rock Dragon" by some, and Rock or Earth is ultimately not a domain of Primordus.

As it stands, like its name, there is no confirmation on its domains as far as I am aware. Unless there's some twitter or tumblr post I've overlooked. Konig (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, the original concept art for Kralkatorrik was called "water dragon" (which is the name used by Taimi for the DSD).

FWIW, I'm also somewhat sceptical that Primordus' second domain is conflagration. In the copy on page 5 of the magazine, Zhaitan is called the "Elder Dragon of Death and Shadow", Mordremoth is called the "Elder Dragon of Plant and Mind", Kralkatorrik is called the "Elder Dragon of Crystal and Fury", and Aurene is called the "Elder Dragon of Light" or the "Prismatic Elder Dragon". In Taimi's article, Zhaitan is said to have "embodied all things shadow and death", Mordremoth is said to have "Embodied 'plant and mind'", and Primordus "embodies fire and conflagration". The similarity in phrasing between Primordus' entry in Taimi's notes and the entries of a couple of the other dragons is certainly suggestive, but you'll note that there's nothing on page 5 that actually says, "Primordus is the Elder Dragon of Fire and Conflagration". For that reason, I'd suggest removing conflagration as Primordus' second domain as well. –Santax (talk · contribs) 09:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for explaining why the redirect page Water dragon was pointing to Kralkatorrik for ten years! I hope you'll agree that pointing it towards DSD makes more sense at present. I disagree that Taimi's notes aren't sufficient proof of Primordus's second domain though. Taimi is an expert researcher on Elder Dragons, likely the leading expert, so if she makes a confident statement about an Elder Dragon, especially one she's actually met, it's probably safe to assume she's correct. —Idris 13:11, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not so much that I don't take Taimi at her word - it's more that she never actually says that Primordus is the Elder Dragon of Fire and Conflagration. She merely says that, "Primordus embodies fire and conflagration". While I think this language is suggestive that Primordus is the Elder Dragon of Fire and Conflagration, it's not explicitly set out like it is for the other Elder Dragons, which makes its inclusion suspect. –Santax (talk · contribs) 14:14, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I still disagree. Taimi's notes were presented alongside the ANet-perspective article, and I feel like her notes were intended to supplement the lore introduced in said article -- thus her use of "embodies" to tie together the confirmed domains of Mordy and Zhaitan with the new domain of Primordus. I do see your point, though, and I'm not sure what a compromise would look like. Do you have any ideas? —Idris 14:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

It's curious that she uses a new method of wording there ("embodies" rather than "domain of magic" or "sphere of influence" that we have before), but given she uses the same terminology for Zhaitan's shadow and death, Mordremoth's plant and mind, and Primordus' fire and conflagration, I do not believe it's suspect. Anet may retcon it later since it's not an in-game source + they could call out unreliable narrator even if it was, but until that point, I feel like this falls under a "canon until retconed" situation like most psuedo-canon sources. Konig (talk) 15:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I think the way to accommodate both positions would be to say in the reference for Primordus' domain exactly how the source supports the text. For the other dragons' domain, the source supports the text in that it explicitly says what their domains are. Given that Primordus' has been interpreted in different ways, I think the way to go is to have the reference say exactly what the source says about Primordus. –Santax (talk · contribs) 17:58, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, that works for me. —Idris 18:00, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I personally think for the sake of clarity it might be better to keep the reference simple and update it when new information contradicts it, or to paraphrase more of the original text so its clearer why this reference is different from the other 3. --Doctor Refrence (talk) 21:04, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Feedback 2021/03/25

In regards to the elder dragon domains, citation number [44] does not say what the article claims it says. I think either the article takes things out of context or in the case of kralk just makes things up, the content should be changed to reflect what the content actually says or the citation should be changed to link to something that actually supports the claims.

For primordus, it does mentions conflagration, but looking at the context in the citation I do not think that is what it means, and especially since conflagration just means a really big fire it seems a bit redundant, What I think happened here is his aspect is still just fire but to make it seem cooler in the article they added conflagration.

For Jormag, the cited work only says that, where other elder dragons may use force to get their way they prefer to use persuasion. I believe this was commenting on their ability to elocute and manipulate rather than it being a particular power they have. we know that they absorbed part of the mind aspect from Mordremoth and that's why they are able to manipulate minds like they can, but the article is intending to lets us know they also posses the skills necessary to manipulate others without any particular power.

for Kralkatorik it doesn't even mention anything about fury. Him having that aspect is definitely not what the cited piece says.

--DumatRising (talk) 08:46, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! Regarding Kralkatorrik, the cited magazine mentions his domains in the "Bound by Blood" article on page 5 which is found left of the "Elder Dragons: Notes from the Field" bit on page 6. The exact quote is "Fortunately we have Aurene: granddaughter of Kralkatorrik (also known as the Elder Dragon of Crystal and Fury) [...]"

As for Primordus, the "Elder Dragons: Notes on the Field" article uses both the verb "embody" and lower case letters for Elder Dragon domains/spheres of influence (for example, "Zhaitan embodied all things shadow and death", "Embodied plant and mind" for Mordremoth) which correspond with similar usage in "Primordus embodies fire and conflagration" and thus suggest that these two are in fact Primordus's domains. Moreover, conflagration means more than just big fire as it can refer to conflict, destruction etc. In recent Champions story step titled "Jormag's World" we've learned how conflagration would make sense as Primordus's second domain. As the Champions story journal aptly summarizes it: "The 'feedback loop' of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, 'Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.'"

As for Jormag, we know that it has had the ability of persuasion for quite some time, long before Mordremoth's demise. Svanir the Nornbear was swayed by Jormag whispering to him through Drakkar as was clarified in various lore books in GW2, and all that Mordremoth's magic seemed to do (as far as we know) was to make Drakkar's whispers louder as Drakkar and Jormag absorbed this magic to boost the power that already existed. The kodan also mention that Jormag's whispers eventually make you want what the dragon wants, which shows the power of the persuasion domain although admittedly the game should elaborate on the persuasion domain more rather than writing some parts of it ambiguously. :) --Kossage (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Ah okay I missed that blurb on page five (the words were so small I just didn't even register they were even there lol), and was focused on the page six stuff. Still its a little weird. I can see where you're coming from though they really need to expand a bit more on it in game or its gonna keep being confusing and out of place in this fake magazine. --DumatRising (talk) 15:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Feedback 2022/03/08

The "hostile" status of Soo-Won should be removed. The reference material linked from the interview is outdated and is not relevant anymore. The devs must have forgotten about this interview because today's Soo-Won has nothing in common with the DSD mentioned in this interview. We now know that Soo-Won is not hostile, and is not male. Soo-Won is also not craving to destroy or consume anything. Source number 55 should be disregarded. --Wolfaction (talk) 06:17, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Imho shouldn't be removed but tweaked, because she was assumed hostile based on evidence, and do not forget that unreliable narrators exist. Based on this, the status of the DSD at the start of the game is definitely not friendly to the people and the Commander. ~Sime 15:36, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Good point! I forgot to assume the Commander's perspective rather than the player's perspective. I think the edited "assumed" is a good choice as it is now on the page. Thanks! Wolfaction (talk) 11:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

If we're going to be choosing whatever time table we want for reference, let us simply place "varies" instead of any determinate, absolute alternative. There can be an asterisk that explains DSD to be perceived as hostile in the beginning, with a change to "benevolent" during the Zaithan crisis (but it being unknown), with a switch to "benevolent" and it being known during EoD. Derigar (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

"If we're going to be choosing whatever time table we want for reference" except that's how most articles are written, especially in their intros. However, Varies could be fair, with the references. Also, why did User:Santax remove Mordremoth? Did they literally took my comment "at the start of the game" too literally? But we knew of its existence. ~Sime 17:31, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we did, did we? Both in and out of the game. –Santax (talk · contribs) 06:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Didn't you make a lengthy argument for Mordremoth's existence being definitive in the form of an edit war with me once upon a time and how it was absolutely certain to be tied to sylvari/Nightmare back in 2013? Either way Scholar Trueclaw explicitly named six Elder Dragons, and Subject Alpha's skills confirmed Mordremoth's name. Konig (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder of why I don't come here anymore Konig. Hope you get help with whatever personality disorder has caused you to spend over a decade of your life picking fights with people on a video game wiki. –Santax (talk · contribs) 20:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)