User talk:Konig Des Todes/Archives15

Icebrood Goliaths

Hi, I've found Icebrood Goliaths and tried what kind of skills they use. Icebrood Goliath and Veteran Icebrood Goliath uses ONLY Leap skill. Nothing else. So your fix that it's stub section is incorrect. Thank you for adding info in leap skill, I'm not that good in english so I've just placed there a link :) There there shouldn't be stub, because their only skill is leap. I'm not sure about Elite Icebrood Goliath though.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bukk (talk • contribs) at 19:48, 8 October 2016 (UTC).

I recall them using a punch skill. Like most enemies with that model - ogres, husks, etc. Konig (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Dwarf

Might want to check this edit. My lore knowledge on the subject is garbage, so I won't even try to figure out if this is true or not. -Darqam (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

....aaaaaaaannnnd it was reverted while I was editing this page, nevermind. -Darqam (talk) 19:30, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Do me a favor

and use "Personal story". I removed the move tag a while ago. -Chieftain Alex 20:39, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that as a header it looks better as Personal Story, regardless of moving the actual article. Konig (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Contact

Hello man i need to contact you somehow and i had no better idea than write you something here. :D can you give me your e mail adress or something? mine is vyko.just@gmail.com Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vyko (talk • contribs).

Aren't you contacting me now? Plus there's an "email this user" to the left, under the Tools section of the sidebar. Konig (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Warband Info

You seem to know all the fun facts so I got a warband question for you. A renown heart is named Help the Sleekfur Warband defend the road at Soldier Mesa, but on the warband page it's just the "Sleek" warband. Is it typo in Renown Heart title or on the warband page? - Do_odleplex 19:19, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Given the existence of Quaestor Sleeksight I'd say that the warband name is "Sleek", however it should be noted that some warbands get special names in addition to their one word name. And given the existence of Sleekfur Encampment Waypoint, I'd guess that's the case here - they're the Sleekfur warband with the Sleek naming system (thus Sleek warband originally/additionally). Konig (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

You might want to look...

...at all of the renown heart NPCs. Every single one of them that I've gotten to so far(70 to go before I go through them all, worked backwards because I dunno lol) uses that heartno/heart yes at the beginning of each of their lines, so removing it is actually making it inconsistent. - Do_odleplex 23:16, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

It's a backburner intention of mine. Unless folks have been reverting me over the months, then there'd probably be ~20 that do not have them on every line but only the first. I've been doing the same to hero challenges for longer and I think those are almost all done. Konig (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by the hero challenges, but if you're gonna remove them from the NPC, you should probably ask before doing it on the NPC template page or something. It being on every line seems to be the format for renown heart NPCs, and I find it helpful being on every line. - Do_odleplex 00:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Originally, hero challenges - back when they were skill challenges - had and at the beginning of every line - including the player option lines. Most if not all do not anymore. It was done out of the same reasoning as the heart NPCs getting the empty or full heart icon at every NPC-dialogue line.

Is there a template guideline for the renown heart NPC? I do not recall such. And how is it helpful, exactly? Because it's just needless clutter. It's no more helpful to have the icon at all than to have a line saying ;Before completion and ;After completion. With it at the first line, you know full well that it's for when the heart isn't complete. The only usefulness it has is when the NPC's dialogue for complete and incomplete is the same except for a few lines, which never happens (but was expected to, thus why it was even started - I think). Konig (talk) 03:37, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Legendary Mordrem Commander Axe

So about this guy. How many of you were there when you saw him? Because when I did it with a group of 4, I am 90% certain it was a champion and not a legendary. -Darqam 01:06, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Scratch that, Found an old screenshot and I was incorrect. Memory failed me. -Darqam 01:12, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

~20, 5, ~20. Always been legendary. Seems only number of commanders change. Konig (talk) 01:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Halloween question

Heya,

So I've been digging around the audio, and I found a bunch of lines from what seems to be Halloween events. The first one concerns the Countess of Hakewood (she speaks to someone) and something about seals. The second is about priory scholars measuring for energy spikes, and the an encounter between said priory team and Mad King Thorn along with some of his legion. Has such events happened before? I can't seem to find anything on the wiki hinting that these events would have taken place. Maybe you'll know of these? -Darqam 16:41, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Energy spikes sounds like Queensdale event, but Thorn wasn't there afaik. Countess of Hakewood may be the Kessex meta given there's so little documented on those. Thorn only talks to Priory in LA from 2015 on. I'd have to hear them to be sure but it largely sounds like scrapped... I never saw the Countess of Hakewood in GW2. Konig (talk) 17:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I've hosted the concerned files here. Note that I merged all the Countess of Hakewood dialogue into one file, the rest of the files I left as individual ones. It might be easier to throw them in a playlist and listen to them. Additionally, if I were to guess, I'd say this was meant to be Halloween year1 events, but perhaps never made it in(?). Anyway, if you have time for it I'd love to know what you make of it (or what anyone reading this makes of it). -Darqam 20:00, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Will review over Thanksgiving weekend. Konig (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

So I Took a Picture of a Thing

...and I'm not sure what to do with it. Apparently if by some fluke of nature (ie, wait long enough until you're the only player in the map...zzzz) and The Frozen Maw goes off and the pre stuff fails, he summons the "ice elemental", which apparently is that thing. It's not an NPC you can't target/click it, and I'm not sure if there's really anything else to it other than it's a shiny object/graphic over his head. Not sure where to put it as a result, as I don't really want to upload over File:Ice elemental 01 screenshot.jpg because that's from the asset kit, and I could swear I've seen that thing in the Snowblind Fractal over an object you could target(the thing causing the blizzard at the start). All I know is, it's so shiny and pretty... - Do_odleplex 20:26, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Uh... You should look up when the events don't fail. He ALWAYS summons that thing. Originally, the difference between failing and not failing the events was that if you completed them, the shaman dude lost half his health - like Ulgoth loses 25% of his health if you complete the three Champion War Beast event, and another 25% of his health when you kill the two Greater Earth Elemental Hands. This guy would originally lose 1/6th of his health for each event completed. But since the events were too easily completed for the zerg, he would always have 50% health, and he would always die in seconds, so Anet buffed him by removing the health removal.

I've explicitly told you, specifically, about the Greater Ice Elementals before. There's also one above the Elemental Source in Snowblind Fractal (originally it would die at 50% health). A miniature one is also seen in the asura Weather Changer storyline.

I've been planning on making Greater Ice Elemental page, named by Creature Codex, to link to all three locations. Similar to Greater Earth Elemental which needs reworking. Konig (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Also, I think that the core of the thing (i.e., minus the three large chunks around the sides) is used for Veteran Corrupted Storm and Veteran Ice Sentry but with some extra effects. Konig (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I have the worst memory. =< But can the picture be used somewhere or do I get to keep it like a skritt? - Do_odleplex 21:31, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

File:Greater Ice Elemental.jpg is best naming. I'll make the article later today if I remember. Konig (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Just occurred to me, should probably see what the damage source for the ambient attacks during the fight are - specifically the ice tornadoes and the falling ice attacks. They may be sourced to the ice elemental. Konig (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Risen Corpse Mine image

Have you verified that all versions of the mine have the green smokey particle effect like the image I was using? My stance was that it had better lighting and at more of an angle that would be seen from regular gameplay. I took it straight from the unofficial Japanese wiki, anyway. --— Cronos 03:32, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Not all versions do, no. I was opting that one because it's higher resolution and size, while the one you grabbed is rather small. It works in infobox but not if you want to view the image itself. Ultimately I think a brand new image is needed over the three we currently have. Konig (talk) 04:15, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Is it possible to gather 25 people for an experiment?

That experiment being "how many people does it take to spawn 'zerg events'?" followed by "do all such events require the same number of people in the area?"

There are events, such as Defeat the pirate captain and Defeat the Risen abomination which seem to only spawn when a large number of players gather. I've seen these primarily (if not solely) due to events such as Scarlet's Minions Invade and the Legendary Ley-Line Anomaly running rampant (in the earlier days). If one could figure out the number of players required - perhaps via testing those two known events - could one then organize a 'stampede' of this number of players through all corners of the game to see just how many hidden 'zerg events' there are?

Random musings... Konig (talk) 02:35, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Been thinking about this myself, actually. I know the location of a couple of these (near bear shrine in Wayfarer's, near a hylek village in Metrica). I doubt we could field that number of people via wiki editors alone :/ There's a chance one could convince enough suckers intrepid souls to gather when the event daily is in the proper map, but if something doesn't happen immediately the crowd would probably disperse quickly. SarielV 16:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm curious to know why it has to be 25. Wouldn't 10-15 be enough to upscale stuff? - Do_odleplex 18:35, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Honestly it depends. I've only seen most of these spawn when major events happen (such as Scarlet's Minions Invade or the Ley-Line Anomaly). That usually involves ~50 folks in one spot. Normal event upscaling begins at 5 players, but it's pretty easy to get 5 folks in one spot, and this happens frequently enough that these "zerg-only events" as I call them wouldn't be so unknown. It may be just needing 10 folks, or 15, but 25 seems like a good number to have on hand.

The idea I had was to go to a couple known spots with a squad divided into 5 groups of 5 people, and send one group in at a time until it triggers. Once we know the number for one event, test another event or two, then we'd need to get whatever number it ends up being to run around the game as a group (which would be even harder to accomplish, perhaps needing to wait for the zone event dailies).

But getting the folks for such would be hard to do. You'd need to get guildies or something to cooperate. Pausible but hard - would be easier to try to get a list of all events in the game by Anet, tbh, but even that would be hard because they might end up included historical events (not that such would be a bad thing...). Konig (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I thought we already had a list somewhere. Where do all these event IDs come from? SarielV 19:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

They come from the API, I believe, which I'm not 100% sure has everything - IIRC, with items and achievements it only lists the things that have been discovered by players for example. Not sure how it deals with events. I don't even know how to search it. Chieftain Alex may know though. But even then, I'm pretty sure the API for event IDs do not list location... IDK, I'm not knowledgeable about that. Konig (talk) 20:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Got the answer from shaman today. I didn't think the event api was still working, but apparently parts of it still do. Like this one. SarielV 17:17, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks like Relyk has provided a means of getting this. Nix that. SarielV 15:59, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Someone is asking about these kinds of events on reddit today. Didn't we find two of them since the start of the new year? SarielV 17:15, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge but I haven't paid too much attention to GW2 this year truth be told, compared to previously. Konig (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Names

You mentioned you were interested in the "internal names" of the maps. If still you can view the complete list here. MadMaxx (talk) 00:55, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

One NPC...

..three pages: Barcas, Refugee Barcas, and Refugee Fivel. I'm not sure if Fivel should just redirect to Refugee Barcas, nor if "Barcas" is still in the game(I'd wager he is, similar to Cravia), but regardless, I fixed the dialogue on the two Barcas pages so whatever you do with 'em you don't have to worry about fixing that too(but do mark the NPC images for deletion if appropriate since all three appear to be the same). *wanders back to looking for user images in wrong places* - Do_odleplex 21:18, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Barcas should still be in the game, I've seen him 'recently'. All three should be merged together at Barcas, with redirects. Konig (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I merged the pages but I haven't done anything to the images, not sure which is the best one to keep: [[:File:Barcas.jpg]] [[:File:Refugee Barcas.jpg]] [[:File:Refugee Fivel.jpg]] —Azurem 20:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Refugee Barcas is best, IMO. Konig (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Haunted Door maps

I really, really, really don't like the large map for the doors. The smaller maps are much easier to use than the large maps which are too busy to find doors(not to mention outdated, the large maps have skill point icons) and don't take time to load, which the larger ones do(and that's on my fast internet =<). - Do_odleplex 03:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Queensdale Haunted Doors are historical. No need to look at a glance for those.

Kessex and Gendarran's small five images per zone are only listing ~10 haunted doors when there are nearly triple that number. By the time you get enough small "look at a glance" images for those, you have dozens of images - not worth splitting them up.

Furthermore, the small maps are all from 2012, and the locations of Haunted Doors changed the very next year - they are, each and every one, outdated.

As for clutter, I used the map images I had access to. If you can get me better map images (no borders, hearts, vistas, or hero challenges for example) then I'll gladly redo the maps. I agree, they're a bit too cluttered. But again, I worked with what I had. Konig (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay. I thought you were just nuking small maps to make a big one, didn't know that stuff, my apologies. Sure, I can try to get you a map with those things, but if I do, try to make the file size below 2MB. - Do_odleplex 03:30, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Gonna see if I can shrink the file size but I doubt it without big sacrifice. The base images themselves are ~5MB that I used - though looks like the ones without borders are closer to 2MB. But all above 2MB. Getting under 3MB without borders is much more realistic. Konig (talk) 03:38, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Managed to shrink Queensdale and Gendarran without losing much quality. Unfortunately, I screwed up my saves with Kessex so I'd need to redo half of it before I can reupload a smaller file... which I'm not going to do tonight because it's tedious and annoying (which is why I three-quarter assed the Labyrinth one). Konig (talk) 04:18, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

In case of amnesia

...I believe the conversation you're looking for was here. Partially related, I still have no idea if Bandit Guard should be in the Story characters category or not since originally it was story only, but now it's not. - Do_odleplex 03:41, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

It shouldn't because it's a generic name. While there is no formal format for what does and doesn't go into Category:Story characters, I've been using it for:

1. Uniquely named characters that pop up in any story instance at any time.
2. Generically named characters (aka not a unique name) that appear only in story instances.

Thus Bandit Guard would have been in the category, but taken out once he appeared in open world. Also, thanks for finding that. I searched Alex's archives but searched wrong one apparently. Konig (talk) 03:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Object or NPC

Is Orrian Fire-eater an object or an NPC? Description seems to indicate it's an NPC, and if it's not it should probably be reworded. - Do_odleplex 01:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

It is an object. Konig (talk) 02:52, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes...

...it's in Krtya. Got daily miner there. - Do_odleplex 09:15, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Orrian Eye

I don't doubt they exist in the personal story, however I'm not sure about open world. I found these instead. Any chance you got them mixed up? - Do_odleplex 03:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Like I can remember the reason for such a small edit. I think I was going off of the what links here. They are linked from the Promenade of the Gods article. Konig (talk) 04:29, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Ironies of Ironies. Gotta ask given that: Are you sure? :P Konig (talk) 04:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Clearly I was under the influence of Skritt booze, so I'm gonna go hide in a bag and fix my drunken mishaps and feel really dumb. _{Good thing I don't really drink?} - Do_odleplex 04:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Removed cinematic in Fighting the Nightmare

Not sure how much it helps, but I definitely saw that cinematic when doing some story updating mid-January this year. Since I was updating later story parts, I never looked to confirm the earlier ones. G R E E N E R 20:22, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I was planning to confirm it (again? I think I did once, not sure...). Would be a weird thing to remove intentionally so if it ever did I figured it would be a bug, but they seemed to have removed the defense event (and pre-boss event?) in the asura tutorial (I once sat waiting 30 minutes to try to capture the dialogue, it never started despite people running through the gate and fighting the boss) so it wouldn't be too odd for either all of such to be bugs, or all of such to be intentional. Konig (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I waited about 15 min for the asura one, and finally decided that they just relied on the other pre-golem fight to bunch up players. G R E E N E R 21:50, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Shared Object Model page

Not sure if you missed it in all the hayday, but made that shared object model page. Was hoping you'd poke at the chests as there appears to be at least two styles per race/region(excluding Orr which only has one style of chest), but I'm not sure about the Ascalonian ones being more charr styled or more Ascalonian styled as I have really no reference for Ascalonian stuff having never played GW1(and most of it seems a bit crumbly at the moment). Otherwise have fun with it. - Do_odleplex 06:07, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

• Blue Sphere (half) is just the same as Blue Sphere but not picked up. Though there is a version of the Blue Sphere which has lightning coming out of it when held.
• There are even more hylek turrets than that!
• Of the Charr/Ascalonian chests, File:Splendid Chest charr.jpg is charr, File:Chest lock.jpg is Ascalonian, I would say.
• The Mossman's Door is not historical. You have to interact with it for achievements. After killing Bloomhunger you can interact with a tunnel object (needs article, and probably adding to Swampland Fractal) to go to Mossman's hut area.
• Toxic Portal used File:Steam Portal (hero challenge).jpg appearance, same as all of Scarlet's portals. Except slightly different - it showed the inside of the Tower of Nightmares instead of black (I think all do now?).
• Orrian Runestone and Orrian Obelisk are indeed the same, also shared with Abaddon Shrine
• Wyvern Egg is not the same as Mysterious/Destroyer Egg. The latter is also shared with, oddly enough, Cooled Drake Egg IIRC and is seen in Ice Drake nests in Frostgorge. Konig (talk) 16:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Figured as much for the blue sphere but I prefer bundle/held object pictures being what they are when seen on the ground for easier identification in game(that and the water sphere is always a floating blue circle in the air) as some bundles can look very different on the ground versus held(paging Vine lol). Guess the question is, Blue Orb does it ever appear as a half sphere on the ground? (And that sparking blue orb I believe has a totally different texture pattern on it making it look like striped and not ocean waves, but I can't find the picture...hrm.) Thanks for the chest info, will go update that now. If there are more hylek turrets, I haven't found them, those are just the ones I knew of that were shared. For Mossman's Door, I kinda figured it couldn't be, but I also didn't see the hut anywhere so for all I knew they'd redone that, good to know. For the portals, yeah, pretty sure they're all black inside, just use that then? Figured as much on the Orrian stuff, so easy peasy there. And I could swear I've seen Wyven Egg being reused somewhere...hmm. Lots of egg stuff to check it seems. - Do_odleplex 18:53, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

• I only know of one other Hylek turret model, the blue-capped Ice Shooter.
• Looks like all of the inquest Chests are different colors and therefore different models.
• You should probably go down Category:Static environmental weapons and sift through the many clones there. SarielV 19:07, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I knew there was a blue one but I couldn't find it, so thank you Sariel, will add shortly. As for the Inquest chests, no I do think they're actually all the same colour, the only reason they currently look different is due to the pictures themselves (the Aetherblade one is terribbble), but no reason not to double check first. And yeah, the page is a rough start, there's definitely stuff missing from it, I just went with what I knew off the top of my head. - Do_odleplex 19:17, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

"Guess the question is, Blue Orb does it ever appear as a half sphere on the ground?" IIRC, it never actually appears on the ground but I may be mistaken, and if I am mistaken then I'd say it's the same. I believe the only difference between the sparkling blue orb and the non-sparkling, besides the sparkles, is that the non-sparkling is also animated.

"If there are more hylek turrets, I haven't found them" there's the blue / ice one mentioned, I want to say there's a brown / explosion-but-not-burning one too but I may misremember there. IIRC, Tequatl's area has all three models used?

"For the portals, yeah, pretty sure they're all black inside" No, no, no. I mean they *used* to be black inside, but not anymore. In other words, that image I linked is outdated - the model was changed unless it got changed again it should be showing Scarlet's little hideout room in Twilight Arbor. But TBH, I prefer the old version because it shows how it was before the stupid Scarlet retcon. :(

"And I could swear I've seen Wyven Egg being reused somewhere" I think it uses the same model but adds a glossy-like effect on top of it, making it unique. Konig (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I know of I've seen that sparking blue orb and can't find it at the moment or I'm thinking of something else, either or it will turn up eventually. As for the hylek turrets, if there is a brown hylek turret we have no documentation of it on the wiki(searched through all images that had either "hylek" or "turret" in their name) so I'm pretty sure it's just the three types of hylek turrets. And as for the ones at Teq, I'd wager probably all three are there but I only can confirm blue and red are there, not sure about the green. As for the portals, basically we have the model but not the inside picture? Does Youtube have anything, because I think that might helpful(it's certainly helped me find some models). As for the egg, better check before putting all of our eggs in one basket, ie I think the wyvern eggs has big spotches of red and not small cracks but if not, the other egg needs a better picture anyway. - Do_odleplex 01:20, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I can 100% guarantee that the Toxic Portals were steam portal models that had an image of the inside of the Tower of Nightmares seen in the center. I can also guarantee that all steam portals models got updated during Season 1 from having a black center to showing an image inside and I think it was always the same image (one model to rule them all, basically). No real need for youtube unless you go see other steam portals and you don't see the inside of the Tower of Nightmares - but even using any steam portal image (without structures) would be efficient as a temp image. Destroyer Egg image is fine, dunno what you talking about. And yes, wyvern egg is different - that's what I was saying. Konig (talk) 01:32, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I'm just gonna leave the Toxic Portal up to you and your judgement. As for the Destroyer Egg, it's large enough of an object where we can get a bigger/better quality picture. - Do_odleplex 01:41, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Defiance Bars

By any chance do you have a list of NPCs that did not change to a defiance bar (other than Bria and historical NPCs) after stuff got changed? I was thinking of running to have my bot tag any NPC that is still using the old "Defiance" and "Unshakable" on their page with a verify code to find which ones need to be switched to a defiance bar or which ones no longer have anything of the sort(such as for the NPCs that got scaled down from Champ status to Vet). If not, no worries, just figured I'd ask since you made a comment once about it on my page. - Do_odleplex 06:04, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

No list, but it's something I've been meaning to check. Unforunately, probably has to be done one by one. AFAIK, only NPCs I've seen keeping the Unshakable effect were the rare few veterans and elites that had it beforehand, like Bria, Reef Broodmother, and a rare few others. Most if not all champions/legendaries seem to have gotten the change but I cannot be 100% sure. It's safer to run your bot to slap a verify tag at the end of each Unshakable tag's line. Konig (talk)

Alpha Drake! —Ventriloquist 20:04, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

NPC: Champion Mordrem Thrasher and Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher discrepancy

During updating unshakable to defiance bar I stumbled over the NPC Champion Mordrem Thrasher in Iron Marches for the event Defeat the Mordrem champion (Iron Marches) introduced in Living Story 2. But at this location I can only find a Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher with the only one additional effect: Nullify Attacks. It seems that the Champion Mordrem Thrasher got replaced by Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher with an update, but which one? And since you are the ONE regarding NPC editing I decided to ask you: What to do with these two?

• Champion Mordrem Thrasher: delete or mark as historical?
• Add the location to Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher but with a remark regarding Nullify Attacks.

Last remark: The Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher in Iron Marches has a defiance bar. -Tolkyria 20:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I noted your comment about that before and was planning on taking a look. The Iron Marches boss functioned vastly differently to a Mordrem Vile Thrasher (champion or otherwise) elsewhere. For example, the Iron Marches boss did not move when doing its spin attack and created the interactive object required for an achievement, and also had a ranged attack akin to Leeching Thrashers. If this remains true but the name got changed, then the boss should simply be renamed to [[Champion Mordrem Vile Thrasher (event boss)]], which is how we separate generically named but unique mechanic foes for specific events (such as Veteran Mordrem Wolf (event boss) and [[Veteran Jungle Tendril (event boss)]]). However, if it got a complete change to being just like standard Vile Thashers, then we got a pretty big bug because that means some achievements are no longer obtainable (see the interactive object thingie). Anyways, when I log in tonight I'll be sure to pop over to Iron Marches and check it out. Konig (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I wasn't really sure how to handle this. But it's not only a rename of the NPC, also the abilites written below the health bar have been changed. But: As far as I noticed it, the interactive object thingie aka Mordrem Nectars (there's no page yet) still drop, which are refering to the old ability Drops Pods (I have already completed the achievment, so I can't test if they still work). So pretty strange. - Tolkyria 20:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

So I can confirm that the only things changed is name and ability description. Skills are the same (though the wiki has them incorrectly documented it seems). I'll get to editing. Konig (talk) 01:33, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

NPC: Elite prisoner and refugee from Twilight explorable

I feel that the spoken dialogue of refugee should be on his page, why not? It belongs to those npc in particularly, so it makes sense if someone wants to read about them they found it on their page, makes it easier to find them as well. Also the current page of dialogue refugee is incorrect then if spoken dialogue belongs in twilight(explorable) He has no other dialogue, and that one there belongs to Elite Prisoner —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nebilim (talk • contribs).

Konig, Nebilim noticed that the Elite Refugee article had the information that belonged to the uncreated Elite Prisoner article. So even if the dialogue should be relocated, it was reverted back to the incorrect information for this NPC. -- Dashface 12:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

To answer the first question: general formatting rules. Spoken dialogue goes to the location page, unless triggered by a certain act (distance to NPC, interaction, death, aggro, or dialogue box leading to spoken dialogue). In addition, dialogue specifically from story instances and dungeons (not sure about raids, I believe they should though but common raid article editors are stupidly sensitive about needing to be "unique" in formatting) goes onto the story or dungeon article, not the NPC.

I didn't realize that the dialogue removed was from Elite Prisoners rather than Elite Refugee - there was no comment of such (that I saw) in edit summary. I removed the dialogue from Elite Refugee. Konig (talk) 18:00, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah i see, thanks for the help, still have much to learn, and i will try to be more detailed on the summary for such changes --Nebilim.5127 18:26, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Change in the Timeline for Lazarus and Balthazar

It was fair enough that we dont know exactly when Balthazar arrived on Tyria but I think something should be done atleast to hint that the real Lazarus did not get resurrected, since that is not true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whatliesbeneath (talk • contribs).

Definitely not, since we try to avoid major spoilers like that. There's no mention of "sylvari are actually dragon minions" there. We state two things of every plot: what starts it, and what ends it. Season 3 is not over yet. And what starts Season 3 is "the return of Lazarus". I suppose we can leave it with "the Maguuma Bloodstone explodes" or change it to "the White Mantle return" though. Konig (talk) 17:00, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Achievements

Hey, regarding the achievements -- I felt like it would be useful to include related achievements to all articles that are involved with that achievement, even tangentially, because I can easily imagine that information being useful to people who are stuck. I understand your concern that it might be confusing for mobs for whom not all versions count towards the achievement, but wouldn't an alternate solution simply be to add a note underneath the achievement?

Also, regarding your comment in these edits -- I strongly disagree with your instinct that even fully relevant achievements don't belong on their pertinent articles just because they're obvious. I think it's important to let users easily see what achievements they can obtain and where, especially since we don't have dedicated articles for most individual achievements.

Normally I'd let all this slide, but my edits to these articles were the first steps in a project I've just started, in which I hope to improve user experience when looking for help in completing achievements. I want us to be on the same page before I continue with this project. [[User:Idris/Projects|Here's a link to the project page]]. --Idris (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

You think it's useful to link Zhaitan's Bane to all 389 NPC articles, not counting all the hundreds of events and story missions that involve risen, of which there are undoubtably more than double that number? That seems wholly unnecessary and massively cluttering. Everyone knows that killing risen progresses Zhaitan's Bane, and everyone knows killing a wurm progresses Wurm Slayer. Mantle Pieces and Jade Carving are hardly any different. Plus, if people want to go to find out what achievements are relevant to what, they go to the achievement pages.

I suggest taking discussion of this project to the community portal to see if other people agree, because as I see it, it's just unneeded extra space that detracts players from finding information more pertinent to those articles. Konig (talk) 19:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I get too many things wrong, it seems. Fuck it, I give up. Again. --Idris (talk) 20:09, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

But you've also improved quite a bit. Everyone gets stuff wrong - even me. Hell, you didn't do anything wrong per se - the typical method of doing new formats is to just do it, and only discuss if someone else disagrees. That's what happened. Now we discuss, in more than just one person's talk page. Since there is no official wiki project page, community portal is (I believe) the most appropriate place to bring it up for others to see. Konig (talk) 20:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

EDIT: Just to add, out of personal experience, if you go to discuss first then it almost never gets a response, so doing it first before discussion is bound to get discussion, or show that no one cares so go right ahead. Konig (talk) 20:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I get more than just this wrong. I mean, I couldn't even word my first comment in this thread in the friendly "let's discuss" way I was aiming for; it sounds too hostile and arrogant, and I've upset people for doing that in the past. No, I'm just not cut out for large projects. Sorry for wasting your time. --Idris (talk) 20:24, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to see this project refined and moved forward. I know that I have a terrible time finding achievement related information mainly due to the fact that I remember concepts but not names. I'd love to have more information put into "See also" sections or the like.

Nothing wrong with having an over-ambitious idea and having to refine it a bit. G R E E N E R 20:32, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Reuploading files

Hello, Konig! Long ago this very wiki had an issue in that reuploading files with new ones wouldn't purge the cache and display the new file, did you remember how it was solved? Thanks. – Valento ^msg 05:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh nvm. It seems it takes some time to refresh itself. That's weird because it doesn't take much time in this wiki. Oh well... – Valento ^msg 05:58, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah basically it's just a delay issue in most cases (there are some odd ones where it won't update for some but will for others). If it's not updating after a refresh, hit the timer next to your username in top right corner, that manually purges the cache. Konig (talk) 15:38, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Mysterious Asura

I disagree that Arkk's "realness" shouldn't be mentioned on his page, though I was certainly wrong about him being the only one. It's interesting that Chronicle Mistwalker talks about "The more real people who survive in here, the better all of our chances." I hadn't realized that she was so aware. They are both anomalies in the fractals, and I feel like that should be mentioned. --Rain Spell (talk)

I considered keeping that bit, but felt that the "realness" is already heavily implied with the fact he has a krewe that works on the Mists' fractals destabilization and appears in multiple fractals (nothing else does - Dessa is the closest but she merely communicates with you through multiple fractals). Since it was effectively just restating something, I felt it was redundant.

The second line I removed not only due to the speculative nature, but also because the former information outright indicates that he's of our timeframe since he by all indication is a "real person" (especially since we know he is post-Tower of Nightmares content). The line about tourism is just a general jab at the players who go into fractals not for research but for loot (not the first time ArenaNet has done this). I doubt it has anything to really do with the Consortium. Konig (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Dessa communicates, but she forgets as soon as you return. She doesn't remember that you did something in an alternate fractal, but Arkk does. I concede it's a bit of an obvious point to make, however. I wonder when we get to meet the rest of his krewe?--Rain Spell (talk)

I know Dessa forgets, hence "closest". To be fair, Arkk doesn't remember when you re-enter the Chaos Isles fractal, either. Hopefully episode 6 will bring a new fractal... Konig (talk) 23:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Livia

Hi. I like the way you changed Livia's page, it's better than my small change. However, I don't think Livia was Master Exemplar until 1157AE and her supposed death. The text on that table in HQ really sounds like she first retired from this rank, then lived the rest of her life (= several years ihmo) in the headquarters before her death. So unless she "rest of her life" was only a few months, I also think that there is an unknown Master Exemplar between her and Laurelai.

Eowin (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

To quote the object:

It ends, "Master Exemplar Livia stepped down and retreated into seclusion in the Shining Blade headquarters. She lived out her life there and was reported to have died in 1157, at 93."

Next page, however:

An inserted sheet of paper says:

1157-1225 Master Exemplare Laurelai

1225-1300 Master Exemplar Marla

1300-1320 Master Exemplar Eive

1320-

The next page makes it fairly clear that Laurelai took the title in the same year mentioned in the prior page. Laurelai is mentioned in another object as Livia's successor. Konig (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

IHMO there could be someone between them. What object said she's her successor ? It seems that I missed it :( Eowin (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Was on top floor, iirc. Either way, it's way too uncanny a coincidence for Livia's supposed death (completely falsified) happened the same year as her successor's retirement. That parchment also contains every succession known after Livia, not listing the current Anise, so it'd be weird to not list Livia's successor if there was one inbetween. Konig (talk) 01:57, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Latest edit of "The Flow of Magic"

Sorry Konig for messing up the formatting. I had gone through and added loads of dialogue, and it got conflicted with your edit. I tried to merge the two as best I could, but I see now that I messed up. Regarding charr: I must have thought I was watching a charr video, but I just probably watched two different norns. Sorry about that. Human, asura, sylvari and norn should be all correct though. Titus 22:47, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Request for comment

Would you be willing to join the discussion over on Talk:Anomaly? I admire your understanding of the lore and I think you'd add a lot to this conversation. --Idris (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Defeat the unchained kingpin dialogue

Hello Konig. I am aware there is dialogue, as I documented here. However, we've always documented that dialogue on the related NPC page, not the event page i.e. actual text dialogue goes on NPC pages, and spoken goes on the event page. Do you think this should be an exception of the sort? —Ventriloquist 20:16, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I recall that we had put the triggering dialogue (and just that/what leads to that) on the event page (and I feel we should but that's a discussion for elsewhere I'm sure). I think this should be an exception if we no longer do such, because it is solely tied to the achievement and event, and can only occur once per account. Konig (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Tbh, I'm fine with putting it on the event page, but to be exact, it is an exception - usually such dialogue with go on the NPC page. Since this is literally once-in-an-account event, it wouldn't hurt to include it there. —Ventriloquist 20:25, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Refugee

Hi Konig. I was wondering which wording/title we preferred for the PoF refugees. I already created Refugee (Elonian), before I saw you made an Elonian version. Which version makes more sense lore-wise? Crystal Desert? Elona? If we're going with Elona, I'd prefer it over Elonian. —Ventriloquist 23:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I chose (Elonian) because having (Crystal Desert) or (Elona) implies the refugee is currently in the Crystal Desert or Elona, rather than being from Elona (and its colonies/settlements/whatever Amnoon etc. is considered). This shows us that regardless of their locations, they are from Elona who fled because of Balthazar's deeds. Unfortunately due to the drastically different context we cannot simply do "Refugee (human)" because there are already different human refugees (which never got an article) that are refugees from the Centaur War (thus I changed the link to them on Refugee to Refugee (Krytan). Konig (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

"...implies the refugee is currently in the Crystal Desert or Elona" Which is why I created the original article; back then all the refugees were in the CD, but with the latest patch we had them in LA, too. I'm fine with moving them to Elonian now, tbh. —Ventriloquist 09:57, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding your comment on Wiki of Gold about the changes you made to Palawa Joko

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about removing content added by others if you feel you're improving the article by doing so. Their work will still be visible in the page history, and I'm fairly sure Dash is generally willing to award credit to anyone whose edit was an improvement at the time. By the way, I don't know if you noticed, but I also left a hint for you a few days ago in set 301, which you were having difficulty in getting credit for. --Idris (talk) 23:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Rather than being concerned about removing content added by others, I meant more of "overriding" others' contributions. And I saw the hint, I chose to ignore it. It's not that I was having difficulty, but rather I do not need the gold so if my contributions don't count then so be it. Konig (talk) 23:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Eh, removing, overriding, I see those as the same thing in this context. And fair enough if you just chose not to follow the hint. I felt bad that you were missing out because I'd already added virtually everything there was to add. :) --Idris (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Is Elona a continent?

"Per the Nightfall manual, Elona is a nation not a continent. It was a continent in GW1 by mechanics only (unlike Cantha which was both nation and continent, and unlike Tyria which is continent and world)."

This is unsubstantiated. The Nightfall manual says that is Elona is a nation, but it does not say that Elona is not a continent. As you say, it is possible to be both a nation and continent. Nor is it said anywhere that Elona was a continent in GW1 by mechanics only. The Movement of the World says, "The Sunspears spread across all three continents, attempting to fulfill their ancient purposes". What continents would that refer to, if not Tyria, Cantha, and Elona? The Nightfall manuscripts article on Djinn also says that "Djinn are spirits with deep ties to the Elonian continent". In real life, a geological supercontinent can contain multiple continents (Afro-Eurasia, for example) as "continent" has no rigorous definition and is largely a matter of convention. --77.101.110.105 12:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

There is also File:Tyria (world) map 2.png - or the translated version which puts Elona on par to Kryta. Tyria is much larger than both the words "Kryta" and "Elona". Unlike Afro-Eurasia, there is no visual distinction between Tyria and Elona's landscapes (and even with the Crystal Sea instead of desert, it still wouldn't - in fact, Orr - which is always said to be part of Tyrian continent - would have been directly connected solely to Elona's "continent").

During A Light in the Darkness, Trahearne calls Elona a nation too.

That one line about djinn is the only line calling Elona a continent, and could have been a typo. The Movement's line is too ambiguous, as we always knew that there was a fourth map intended for GW1 - Utopia's - which was hinted to be to the west. Per the above map, that would put it at the Sunrise Crest area, which is indeed its own continent, and indeed has trade route markings to it from the Battle Isles. All other mentions of continents in GW1 refer to either Tyria, Cantha, or "the northern continent". Konig (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

That map (which is not a reliable canon source as it is just a ripped texture, and includes labels that are clearly not meant to be taken as canon such as "not real", "Gwen Yeh", and "Kim Dahye") also places Cantha on a par with Tyria and Elona. This suggests that either Cantha is not a continent (which you surely disagree with), or that the label refers to the human nations of Kryta, Cantha, and Elona rather than the continents of Tyria, Cantha, and Elona. The only text larger than the text labelling those three is "Tyria", which is written far from any area we have yet visited and therefore probably refers to the world or the supercontinent.

Trahearne calling Elona a nation doesn't preclude Elona from being the name of a continent as well. As you say, "Cantha [...] was both nation and continent".

It seems presumptuous to change information all over the wiki about an important subject based on the assumption that the line in the Nightfall manuscripts about Djinn is a typo (I found that with a couple minutes of searching, and I'm sure that you could find more canon references to Elona as a continent if you really tried), and it also seems silly to assume that the line in the Movement of the World refers to unreleased content that is never referred to in any other canon source. --77.101.110.105 17:29, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, Tyria and Elona's landscapes are very visually distinct, and parts of Afro-Eurasia are not - Eastern Europe and Central Asia, for example. Orr might be geologically closer to Kourna, Vabbi, and the Crystal Desert, but politically it is closer to Ascalon and Kryta (not least because at the time that Prophecies came out, Elona was probably just a glint in the milkman's eye, so to speak), so it is considered part of Tyria. Continents on Tyria are apparently like Boundaries between the continents of Earths in real life|continents in real life]] in that distinctions between them are arbitrary and the the boundaries between continents are set by convention more than anything else. --77.101.110.105 17:52, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) That "ripped texture" is 100% viewable on the floor of the Durmand Priory Special Collections floor. It is 100% canon source, even if the exact square format conjoined was taken from the date. Obviously some labels are just placeholders, but that doesn't mean the non-placeholder labels are also placeholders. Cantha is indeed on par with Kryta and Elona, which is curious but could be explained by the fact that Cantha is the name of the empire just as well as the continent - the map is clearly denoting the (remaining) human nations with those three words. The word "Tyria" does indeed refer to the supercontinent, as the land we explored has most recently been "relabeled", of sorts, as Central Tyria (plus, how often do you see a map of earth with big, bold letters over a landscape "EARTH"?). The world map ("press M" map not "map of the world" just to avoid confusion) we had in GW1 and pre-PoF GW2 was never "the whole of continental Tyria", as we well know thanks to Eye of the North, Maguuma lore, and charr lore.

True, calling Elona a nation doesn't preclude Elona from being a continent too. But we have one singular canon source calling Elona a continent, with dozens calling Elona a nation. Similarly, since you bring it up, we have dozens of canon sources calling Cantha a nation (specifically, the official name of "Empire of the Dragon" aka "the Canthan Empire"), and dozens more calling it a continent.

As for "[finding] more canon references to Elona as a continent if [I] really tried" - before my response here, I searched gww for the word "continent" and found only one - the Djinn article - calling Elona a continent, aside from fan-made wording or mechanical references.

I am not assuming the line in the Movement refers to anything - I presented it as a possibility. I would note, however, that a lot of things in The Movement were either changed or wrong from the get go. For example: Krytan government terminology, order of dragon awakening (Jormag and Zhaitan got switched). Date of Ventari's death. Corruption levels of the deep sea dragon. The Lion's Arch portal into the Mists. And more I cannot think of off the top of my head. Konig (talk) 17:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

EDIT: I would say that there are definitely parts of Afro-Eurasia which are very visually distinct. Russia or Africa for example. Orr being politically closer to Kryta and Ascalon may be true, but politics doesn't determine continent local. Elona had a lot of lore in Prophecies, btw, as we could see in the Crystal Desert - far more than Cantha, which had a single NPC's reference. Also, "continents in real life"? Continents in real life are determined more by fault lines than anything, in modern times at least (also your wiki link goes to nothing). Konig (talk) 17:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

TL;DR I did my research, despite your claim otherwise, and all references but one certain and one dubious-at-best point to Elona being a nation, not a continent (unlike Cantha). If you want to continue this, please go find a source I somehow missed, because the rest is just your opinion while I'm basing mine on the facts presented to us. If all else fails, ask a developer for a stern answer to end this. Konig (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many references there are to Elona being a nation, because that is uncorrelated with Elona also being a continent. We have several canon sources saying that Elona is a continent, and absolutely nothing to contradict that statement. So why are you removing references to Elona being a continent from the wiki?

Although you didn't provide any links to the purported dozens of instances of being called a continent by canon sources (and I'm not about to try and corroborate that - if you're correct then that's quite a lot of work), I find it interesting that by your standard of searching GWW, the word "Elona" is about 40% more likely to appear on the same page as the word "continent" than the word "Cantha" (64 results for Cantha, 88 for Elona) [1] [2]. The word Cantha apparently only appears on the same wiki page as the word continent four dozen times, so let's hope more of those are calling Cantha a continent than in the search for Elona! By the way, did you think to try searching GW2W as well? The Divinity Guide says that the only three historical human nations on this continent are Kryta, Orr, and Ascalon. I guess it's possible that they are mistaken, but then it's also possible that they as well as many other canon sources are correct.

If the possibility that the Movement of the World refers to something else (or is wrong) is just that, a possibility, then we shouldn't change info on the wiki based on that possibility alone. Any canon source could contain typos, but we can't operate under that constant assumption. If the Movement of the World is dubious at best, as you say, then surely the right thing to do would be to go back and remove information in the articles on dwarves, the deep sea dragon, and Cantha (to name a few) that comes from the Movement of the World but has not been corroborated by any other canon source - but I don't believe that you really think that would be the best course of action. I have to say it feels like you're moving the goalposts a bit - you claimed there was no evidence, I found some evidence, and then you behaved as though you were aware of my evidence but had always considered it insufficient on the basis that someone at ArenaNet might have made a typo or might have been referring to unreleased content not referred to anywhere else.

I'm a little confused as you now seem to be arguing against your point that Tyria and Elona are visually indistinct and should therefore be considered part of the same continent (I can't think of two regions, by the way, that are more different than the Shiverpeaks and the Crystal Desert). The Wikipedia link has now been fixed. It says that continents are generally identified by convention rather than any strict criteria - it's not true at all that continents in real life are determined more by fault lines than anything else. If you disagree you should probably take it up with Wikipedia editors as their project is rather more important than this one!

I did, I should say, find more canon references to Elona being a continent: the official timeline draws a distinction between the "northern continent of Tyria" and the "valley of Elona", the page Gods in Elona (which I think is possibly replicated in the Nightfall manuscripts) refers to Paragons and Dervishes as being two professions "unique to this continent", the Nightfall FAQ's frequently refers to Elona as a continent (albeit mixing the word "continent" in the mechanical sense with the word "continent" in a geographical sense, probably because nobody at ArenaNet ever anticipated such a petty semantic argument from arising from the distinction) and describes Elona as "a region of the world connected to the continent of Tyria but accessible only by sea" rather than being part of the continent of Tyria. Like I say, multiple canon references to Elona being a continent and nothing to contradict that fact. I'm sure there's plenty more examples of Elona being called a continent, but I think the evidence I have provided is sufficient so I'm not about to go hunting for archived developer posts on GWOnline. What we don't have is anything categorically stating that Elona is not a continent. --77.101.110.105 18:51, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

"It doesn't matter how many references there are to Elona being a nation, because that is uncorrelated with Elona also being a continent." Correct, it's the lack of references to it being a continent that's important.

"Although you didn't provide any links to the purported dozens of instances of being called a continent by canon sources" How can provide something that I'm saying doesn't exist?

"I find it interesting that by your standard of searching GWW, the word "Elona" is about 40% more likely to appear on the same page as the word "continent" than the word "Cantha" (64 results for Cantha, 88 for Elona)" Did you actually look at those results? Look at the "Elona continent" search. Top three results are: An Empire Divided, Cantha, Cartographer - none of the three mention Elona. Look at the results, and tell me do any call Elona a continent? I see Djinn does (as mentioned), but everything else seems to be referring to mechanical continents (aka "world maps"), and not the lore. You cannot just hit a keyword and say "look at these results!" You need to look at the results.

I wasn't changing anything on a "possibility", but the "lack of evidence". The GWW - and GW2W - have long been riddled with misconceptions for ages. This is not the first one I've gone to try to correct. And you're taking what I'm saying out of proportion - nowhere have I ever said we should remove content without reason. So no, we should not remove content from the dwarf or deep sea dragon articles or elsewhere. We fix based on new information when we learn old information is incorrect - this is why we deleted Senator, replacing it with The Ministry.

At this point, I think you need to take a break and relax because you're clearly going off at me for no damn reason.

And to your additional sources: the timeline never calls Elona a continent, even if it's separating the valleys of Elona from the three northern kingdoms. The bit of Dervishes and Paragons on that god page is not in the manual but does hold weight to the argument. As you mention the FAQ is speaking in mechanics - I never denied "continent" being a mechanical term that is ubiquitous with world maps in GW1 (by that standard, gw1:The Battle Isles is a continent).

You say there's "multiple instances" but so far, I've seen but two speaking in lore stance, that are clear at the least. While we have dozens calling it a nation. And that does not mean it refers to both - because if Elona were a continent in lore then both The Desolation and Dzalana would be part of the Elonian continent, however they are never said to be - just in mechanics for the former. In fact, the Desolation is always and solely called part of the Crystal Desert in lore, in GW1, in The Movement of the World, and in GW2, and all sources tell us that the Crystal Desert is, in full, part of the Tyrian continent. Konig (talk) 20:23, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I want to make a slight addendum in regards to you bringing up that wikipedia article. There are generally two ways to define what a continent is - politically and geographically. Since you denied my statement that continents are based on fault lines, to quote wikipedia: "Geologically the continents largely correspond to areas of continental crust that are found on the continental plates. However some areas of continental crust are regions covered with water not usually included in the list of continents. The area referred to as Zealandia is one such area (see submerged continents below)." Second paragraph on this article. In this sense given there is no mountain range between Central Tyria and Elona, it is likely there is no continental crust between the two. In addition, given you constant examples of Afro-Eurasia: "Although Afro-Eurasia is typically considered to comprise two or three separate continents, it is not a proper supercontinent." First paragraph in this article's section. And regarding your statement of drastic climate changes - Central Tyria alone has such drastic climate changes (and this was far more noticeable in GW1), particularly noticeable between the Maguuma, Kryta, and Ascalon.

Now that's speaking geographically. From a political viewpoint, one may argue that Elona is a separate continent though part of the same supercontinent as Central Tyria, thus explaining why Orr is "part of Tyria" and not Elona. However, in ancient times - which includes some of your sources' reference (namely the timeline) - the divide between the Central Tyrian kingdoms and Elonian kingdoms were much smaller than in GW1's time, given the Margonites' presence in the Crystal Sea; even after the Exodus, the Primeval Kings held a strong presence in the northern Crystal Desert, and later so did Turai Ossa and even some Ascalonians. The political boundaries there has shifted back and forth continuously, leaving the two to be closely nit for almost the entire time - the greatest timeframe of this being between 452 AE and 868 AE - just over four centuries. Ultimately, it's hard to say - as you say, there's nothing saying Elona isn't a continent. But proving the lack of something is always nigh impossible. By the argument of "well we're not told it isn't" I could argue that Abaddon is Balthazar's father, that Dwayna is actually a largos, and Arachnia still lives in the heart of the world waiting for the day of ragnarok to awaken. So that argument is a very poor one indeed.

So until we find proof of Elona being called a continent - reliably, as ArenaNet are well known to make typos and errors in the lore - we should avoid calling it such. In GW1, it was such by mechanical definitions of what a "continent" is (read: a world map) but this does not carry over to GW2. The wiki has on occasion been filled with incorrect assumptions that were left alone for years. This wouldn't be the first time it is done. Nor, I suspect, would it be the last. The best way to get an answer is to do a formal question and allow devs enough time to gather an actual answer rather than answer off-hand. Konig (talk) 02:26, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

"I could argue that Abaddon is Balthazar's father"— Nah, there's no way. Balthazar's father is just a head, whereas Abaddon is a head and a pair of hands. Unless... hands sounds like hounds... and Balthazar emerged with his father's head and two hounds... by gum, it's canon! --Idris (talk) 04:30, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

There's several canonical references to Elona as a continent, other canonical references to Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr being a part of Tyria, excluding Elona entirely (or in the case of Divinity Guide, explicitly stating that it was only those 3), and canonical statements that are incredibly difficult to justify if Elona is part of the continent but very easy if it isn't (such as, in Movement, "The history of Cantha and Elona, as we know it, ceases around the time of Orr's liberation from the sea. Little contact with these nations has made its way north to the Tyrian continent; the undead of Orr and the upheaval in the Crystal Desert made news scarce and difficult to acquire." (emphasis mine), or in the Elonian timeline, "421 DR Cantha begins trading with Tyria, Elona, and the northern areas."). I'd say it's plenty well-supported that it's considered a continent.

As for Orr, it is separated from Elonian civilization by the Crystal Desert, which is almost completely uninhabitable, and difficult to traverse, and the Desolation, which IS completely uninhabitable, and almost impossible to traverse. Compare that to a pretty short boat ride to LA, or a not particularly long route over land (note that the Charr got to the gates of Orr before Khilbron blew the place up, which means that it was either connected to the Tarnished Coast before the explosion or there was a bridge there, like there is in current times where some engineers threw together a temporary bridge)

Also, based on the Priory map of the world, calling the Kryta-Ascalon-Orr area "Central" Tyria is a load of crap if that entire landmass is considered to be the continent of Tyria --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr are (usually but not always) kept separate from Elona when talking about Tyrian kingdoms because they are typically grouped due to being from King Doric's lineage, and all three being around Central Tyria. Ironically, your Movement quote explicitly calls Elona a nation, rather than a continent. Your second quote of the timeline also never mentions Elona being a continent, just that it is on par to the Central Tyria area (keep in mind that prior to Heart of Thorns, "Central Tyria" was just called "Tyria" - we effectively had 3 meanings to the name: the world, the super continent, and the political subcontinent consisting from Maguuma to Ascalon in W to E, Northern Shiverpeaks to Orr in N to S). And yes, "Central Tyria" is not actually the center of Tyria (supercontinent) - it likely refers to "the political/trading center of the known world" (just like how The World Summit only included the major national leaders of Central Tyria, and not elsewhere that is still accessible, like the Blood and Ash Imperators). All the same, what we now call "Central Tyria" is what is often being referred to in GW1 (and pre-HoT GW2) when saying "Tyria" or "Tyrian continent".

I'd like to note that Orr was not always separated by the Crystal Desert, and even then it is still landbridged directly to Elona - even before the desert's existence, in fact more so then, Orr was connected to Scavenger's Causeway, connected to the (currently unnamed) mountains that leads to Kourna. The connection between Orr and Elona circumvents the Desolation. The actual reason it is considered separate from Elona is because Orr and Elona were established at the same time (in 205-200 BE). Konig (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

You completely missed the part of the Movement quote that mattered. Firstly, as already noted, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Elona was called a nation seeing as that does not preclude it from being a continent. Secondly (the part that matters), how does one "[make their] way north to the Tyrian continent" if one is already on the continent of Tyria? It's like saying a Floridian moved to North America.

The quote from the timeline mentions trading with a continent and a nation that you claim is a part of that continent. You saying they meant "Central" Tyria is putting words in their mouth.

You're right, it wasn't always the Crystal Desert. It used to be the Crystal Sea. Which you'll note is also uninhabitable and difficult to traverse (and it's only gotten harder after a bunch of nice land turned into the Desolation, which might as well be a giant pool of lava)

So again, there are multiple references that directly call it a continent and a number of things that make absolutely no sense unless they're considered different continents by the citizens of the world (which is the REAL thing that determines what a continent is, considering the eastern boundary between Europe and Asia isn't even slightly based on plate tectonics, and there's stuff like India being part of Asia even though it has its own continental plate) --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

And apparently you missed the important part of my comment. Let me restate:

1. keep in mind that prior to Heart of Thorns, "Central Tyria" was just called "Tyria" - we effectively had 3 meanings to the name: the world, the super continent, and the political subcontinent consisting from Maguuma to Ascalon in W to E, Northern Shiverpeaks to Orr in N to S
2. All the same, what we now call "Central Tyria" is what is often being referred to in GW1 (and pre-HoT GW2) when saying "Tyria" or "Tyrian continent". Konig (talk) 16:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Has there been a single instance of anyone calling it "Central" Tyria? Or is it solely the UI calling it that, separating the base game areas from other regions mechanically (which you dismiss as reasoning behind calling Elona a continent)? And, of course, the LWS3 maps that are plainly within the region (namely Lake Doric and Siren's Landing, and arguably Bitterfrost Frontier) but mechanically give HoT mastery exp and mastery points rather than Central Tyrian also strongly point to "Central" Tyria being nothing but a mechanical region --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

From a lore viewpoint, there's not been many instances where such wording makes sense (as you say, half the maps in Season 3 were in/very close to Central Tyria lore-wise). But there are some references outside of masteries: Black Lion Greeter and, though not an NPC, Outpost: SCAR Bivouac. There are also Nature Spirit, Cave Troll Trowel, and Drake Scale (exotic) descriptions which talk about Central Tyria outside of the topic of masteries. Most telling, however, is the first NPC. Who distinctly separates Central Tyria from Heart of Maguuma, Northern Shiverpeaks (likely referring to Far Shiverpeaks aka 'Far Northern' Shiverpeaks), and Orr - likely because those areas are no longer in civilized lands in GW2's time; in GW1's time and before this would undoubtably be different due to dwarves and, before GW1, the kingdom of Orr and the trade route through Fort Koga. EDIT: Now that we're once more going away from Central Tyria, we may hear/see more references to calling it such, over simply "Tyria". Konig (talk)

The Greeter definitely does call it that. However, it takes a lot of rewriting of lore to make all instances of "Tyria (continent)" mean "Central Tyria", whereas there's multiple direct references to Elona as a continent, a number of people who list Tyrian nations without mentioning Elona, several things that refer to Tyria and Elona separately instead of lumping Elona in under Tyria, and frankly it'd be pretty fair to say that plate tectonics puts Elona on a different continental plate considering the giant walls of mountains (with a volcano now!) between the 3 Doric kingdoms and Elona (which also brings up Ascalon likely being a different plate from Kryta and Orr as well) (oh god that run-on sentence). I really see no reason why being on the same gigantic landmass would necessitate them being part of the same continent (especially considering in our own world Afroeurasia is 3 different continents, with 4 different continental plates, none of which mark the boundary between Europa and Asia), and with the large barriers between them (first the Crystal Sea, the Unending Ocean and the unnamed mountain range, then the Crystal Desert, the Desolation/unnamed mountain range, and the Unending Ocean, and now all of those in addition to Palawa Joko and DSD) it would be completely reasonable for them to consider themselves to be a different continent.

Also, to add to the pile of "Tyria without including Elona" I'll also bring up Quiz Terminal, which states that "Doric's kingdom stretched over all of Tyria" when you answer "Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr" (amusingly enough, I stumbled onto that one in-game yesterday while we were arguing). If Doric spread over all of Tyria then clearly Elona isn't part of Tyria seeing as Elona has nothing to do with Doric. And in Sunspears in Kryta Kormir mentions leaving Tyria to go to Elona --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 02:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Also again, with Greeter separating out Orr (south), HoM (west), and Far Shiverpeaks (north) due to them not being civilized, the remaining areas (middle, east) sounds pretty "central" to me --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 02:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"whereas there's multiple direct references to Elona as a continent" Except... only one's been brought up. That is, direct references.

"several things that refer to Tyria and Elona separately instead of lumping Elona in under Tyria" Considering Elona separate from "the Tyrian continent" doesn't make Elona its own continent.

Honestly, you've yet to provide a source that says Elona is a continent beyond the Djinn. EVERYTHING you present merely states that humans often consider Elona separate from the three "Tyrian kingdoms". But this does not 1) make it a separate continent and 2) especially doesn't make it its own continent.

I have provided multiple statements calling Elona a nation - not calling it a continent when the context would actually be calling for such - and have provided more than just the Greeter as to mentions of Central Tyria existing as more than just Kryta (which would be the "middle" of what you're calling the continent of Tyria). Suspicious Crate (Tangled Depths) actually calls "Central Tyria" "the rest of Tyria" in its dialogue in relation to the meta description, showing that the two do indeed mean the same. And are more than just mechanical mastery regions. Konig (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Whereas I have provided a number of statements that make absolutely no sense if Elona is part of the Tyrian continent (referring to both Elona and Tyria even though Elona is supposedly part of Tyria, referring to "leaving" or "returning to" Tyria when traveling between Elona and Prophecies, explicitly referring to only the 3 Doric kingdoms as the kingdoms of Tyria...).

Your argument for dismissing those is to retcon every mention of the continent in the entirety of 2 games (or is it 5?) based on nothing, and to ignore sources because they MIGHT be a typo.

"Except... only one's been brought up. That is, direct references." Nightfall FAQs. While technically not directly calling Elona a continent, when referring to adding Nightfall to 1 owned game rather than 2 it says it gives you access to 2 continents, which means that if you own Prophecies and Nightfall then you have 2 continents (Tyria and whatever continent Elona is on). Also, Nightfall Manual: "Faith flourishes in Elona, just as it does around the world. Two professions unique to this continent are known for their devotion to their deities." The Paragon and Dervish are unique to Elona, thus the object of "this continent" is "Elona". The Nightfall Manual is also rife with references to how Elona is different from Tyria. Not "the rest of Tyria", mind you. For instance, "Whenever Elona’s scholars write about history, they use their own conventions for writing about time. Different countries use different systems: Tyrians use the Mouvelian calendar, while Canthans have their own Canthan calendar". The countries of Tyria use the Mouvelian calendar. Elona doesn't, thus it is not a country of Tyria.

"I have provided multiple statements calling Elona a nation" Which, as stated multiple times already, doesn't mean anything whatsoever, because nation doesn't preclude continent (see: Cantha)

"EVERYTHING you present merely states that humans often consider Elona separate from the three "Tyrian kingdoms". But this does not 1) make it a separate continent" It absolutely makes it a separate continent. Whether or not the people of the world (especially scholars, like the guy who wrote Movement) consider it to be a continent is literally the most important reason to call something a continent. Out of the 7 continents in the real world, the border between of 2 of them has virtually no terrain basis at all, being based entirely on politics back in the day, and only 3 of the continents (South America, Africa, and Australia) fit on their own continental plate. The only designation of what is a continent at all is that people CALL it a continent.

"Suspicious Crate (Tangled Depths) actually calls "Central Tyria" "the rest of Tyria" in its dialogue in relation to the meta description, showing that the two do indeed mean the same." To reach the rest of Tyria by land, they must go through central Tyria first. Like if the event said "the Charr march on Ascalon" and an npc said "we must keep them out of the rest of Tyria". Or perhaps a strict reading of it would suffice, where "the rest of Tyria" IS Central Tyria, meaning Central Tyria is the entirety of the rest of Tyria.

Considering the mountains of evidence that Elona is NOT part of Tyria is there any evidence that it IS part of Tyria? Like, say, a source explicitly saying that it is part of Tyria?

Also since it seems you didn't notice, I'm not the person that started this argument in the first place, it was an anon. I joined in later --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 10:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a baffling discussion to me. We've always considered Elona as both a nation and a continent because that's how ArenaNet themselves introduced it to us. For example, in this press release from eleven years ago, it says "Guild Wars Nightfall takes place on the continent of Elona, Land of the Golden Sun. It is a nation comprised of three great provinces". I've looked through this thread, and I'm unconvinced that we have enough to be dogmatic that it's not a continent. -- Dashface 16:06, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"Whereas I have provided a number of statements that make absolutely no sense if Elona is part of the Tyrian continent" And you've apparently not bothered reading a word I said. Continuing this is just repetition and therefore pointless. Do whatever the hell you want.

@Dashface: I remain unconvinced that the few mentions of Elona "being a continent" are not referring specifically to the mechanics. Every time it's brought up as such, it's talking about "new land players visit". Which is true, mechanically speaking. But whatever. Konig (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Because I still think it's wrong to call Elona a continent: Not once does PoF promotions call Elona a continent. It is always kingdom, land, or nation, despite constant references to "returning to northern Elona". Not even the newsites have called Elona a continent. I wonder why, hmmmmmm. Konig (talk) 00:10, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Kralkatorrik question

Was poking through some stuff and I found that "Water Dragon" and "Water dragon" redirect to Kralkatorrik. I have no idea why since to me it would make more sense for those to be be linked to the Deep Sea Dragon. Can you shed any light on this? - Do_odleplex 17:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

GWW:File:"Water Dragon" concept art.jpg; gww:Kralkatorrik. First (and for a long time, only) concept art of Kralkatorrik was titled "Water Dragon". Deep Sea Dragon is actually never related to water other than location, despite common misconception - that moniker is the same as calling Zhaitan the "Orrian Dragon" or Kralkatorrik the "Desert Dragon", as opposed to calling Zhaitan the "Death Dragon" or Kralk the "Crystal Dragon" - that is to say "Deep Sea Dragon" refers to its location, rather than its element/domain which "Water Dragon" would be referring (currently there is no "water dragon"). Konig (talk) 18:20, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Ahhh I see. Yeah I got confused because Kralkatorrik's domain is crystal not water, which I somewhat presumed Bubbles to have control over. Thanks! - Do_odleplex 18:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit to Tyria

I'm a bit confused by this. The Far Shiverpeaks is accessible - there's the Eye of the North, and (debatably) Bitterfrost Frontier. Deldrimor Front is currently inaccessible but my edit never said that it was accessible, it just acknowledged that the only zone that has ever been there (Labyrinthine Cliffs) was considered part of the Maguuma Jungle mechanically.
As for the naming of Central Tyria, the examples you cite were Nature Spirit, Cave Troll Trowel, and Drake Scale (exotic). All these examples are UI text which is supposed to inform players not to go hunting oakhearts, cave trolls, and drakes in HoT areas but in base game areas. You also cite the Outpost: SCAR Bivouac event description text, which is a bit more compelling as its purpose isn't to resolve any mechanical ambiguity for players, but is still UI text. Finally, you cite the Black Lion Greeter, who is an in-game NPC but whose role is to be more mechanical than lore-friendly. This NPC actually makes a distinction between Central Tyria Northern Shiverpeaks/Maguuma Jungle/Orr, so either those areas aren't part of the Tyrian continent or the NPC is not a reliable indicator of the point you're trying to make.
All of the above examples serve to distinguish between areas from the base game and HoT/LS3 areas, so by equating Central Tyria with the Tyrian continent, you're saying that all of the Heart of Maguuma, Bloodstone Fen, Ember Bay, Bitterfrost Frontier, Lake Doric, Draconic Mons, and Siren's Landing are not part of Tyria, which is absurd. Clearly the purpose of the delineation between "Central Tyria" and other areas is to separate areas from the base game with areas from HoT/LS3, and the designation "Central Tyria" was chosen because newly-added areas tend to be on the fringes of the map.
Central Tyria as the name for the Tyrian continent, as much as it makes sense and as much as you might like it, is fanfiction. --77.101.110.105 08:37, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

"This NPC actually makes a distinction between Central Tyria Northern Shiverpeaks/Maguuma Jungle/Orr," Technically it's the PC who makes the distinction in asking, however, nothing says that the Northern Shiverpeaks/Orr is not part of Central Tyria. Just the Heart of Maguuma. To make an example: If you ask an airliner if they have flights to America, and they say no, then you ask if they have flights to Washington and they say no. Does that mean Washington is not part of America? Konig (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The fact that even one NPC references to the location as Central Tyria is all the proof needed to say that it is called Central Tyria in lore. Ergo canon, not fanon. Konig (talk) 18:25, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

That example doesn't make sense - if you ask an airliner if they have flights to America and they say no, then by implication they will not have flights to Washington, as Washington is part of America. If you *do* subsequently ask if they have flights to Washington, then that must be because you believe that Washington is not part of America. So do you really think the PC believes that the Shiverpeaks/Orr is not part of the Tyrian continent? And do you really think that the Heart of Maguuma is not part of the Tyrian continent?

Also, the NPC in question is a fast travel NPC implemented primarily to fulfil a mechanical purpose, not unlike Kenai, so I wouldn't ascribe too much weight to that NPC's dialogue - especially not enough to go around editing prominent articles to claim that the Tyrian continent has suddenly been renamed. We don't have articles about the role of levelling in lore, despite Emryd the Tamer's dialogue referring to "level 20 pets", or the role of the Guild Wars In-Game Store in lore based on the dialogue of Anatomical Engineer Llye. Nor does the mention by several NPC's during Minister Cho's Estate of a "CTRL button" warrant a wiki article about what that means in lore. --77.101.110.105 20:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The point of the example was to show that asking one question does not exclude the subject of said question from the subject of another question. In this case - asking about Orr or the Shiverpeaks does not necessarily exclude the locations from Central Tyria which is also asked about. As to "So do you really think the PC believes that the Shiverpeaks/Orr is not part of the Tyrian continent?" I explicitly stated the opposite - that the PC does believe the Shiverpeaks/Orr is part of the TYrian continent (aka Central Tyria) but asks about the locations specifically.

Unlike in GW1, we do not have "mechanic NPCs" outside of tutorials or PvP. And even then, the closest tutorial 4th wall breaking NPC we got are the ones around the dodge practice chests.

As an aside, it wouldn't be the first time a location suddenly gets renamed (see Magus Falls), nor would it be the first time something from the manuals did not make it into the game (see gww:Forest of True Sight). Konig (talk) 23:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit to Elona

I don't understand why you removed links to regions of Elona - those pages are clearly relevant to GW2 as they are now on the world map, and so they will need pages on this wiki. It doesn't make sense to wait until the pages are created to add links, as those pages will then initially be orphaned. It's useful to create redlinks as it indicates that a page will be created soon or that a page needs to be created. It helps the wiki grow because it lets us identify gaps in our coverage and prioritise them according to their rank on Special:Wantedpages. As for the redirects, even though they don't currently go anywhere those links will again need to be added at some point so I don't know why you reverted their addition as you're undoing work that needed to be done, and leaving it for someone else to do again in the future. --77.101.110.105 08:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I disagree by their relevance. Unless they get significant references to merit more content than the paragraph on the page, what we have is sufficient. In this case, it does make sense, because we have them as redirects. Dzalana has even less reason to be made than The Desolation which is likely to be a PoF zone (and I would wait for the exact wording of the zone name before making a link there).

And a split is unnecessary, since beyond mechanics there's yet to be anything that says Elona is a continent - just things that says this is not this which is painfully obvious. Konig (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

They are on the GW2 world map, so they are now relevant to GW2. We maintain articles on subjects such as the Blazeridge Mountains and the Strait of Malchor; it seems inconsistent and illogical to refuse to document the provinces/regions of Elona just because they lack their own map text. Besides, now that we're headed to northern Elona it is almost certain that those areas will, in fact, "get significant references to merit more content than the paragraph on the page".

As for the split on the Elona page, I think objections should probably not focus on the subject of whether Elona is a continent. I'm not willing to relitigate the discussion above about whether Elona is a continent; it seems the matter is settled and you are alone in your opinion. --77.101.110.105 20:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

"They are on the GW2 world map, so they are now relevant to GW2." Have you gone in-game yet? Do so. They are, in fact, not visible in the game's map. This map was pulled from the gw.dat, and shows far more than what the current in-game map shows. Currently, the in-game map only shows The Desolation and half of Vabbi - just enough to show the five maps we'll see in PoF, based on the leaks. Of the two, the Desolation was always a sub-region of the Crystal Desert in lore (but not like you'll believe me there - everything I've said is no doubt fan-fiction to your ears), so everything about the Desolation should be (and currently is) on Crystal Desert, where it belongs. No separate article needed for The Desolation.

I could see the argument made for an article on Vabbi - but not on Kourna, Istan, and definitely not Dzalana yet (since aside from a slightly more complete map, we have 0 new lore on it than from GW1). Redirects to Elona article for sure, but not their own articles. But based off of leaks, (most of) Vabbi will be its own zone, under the name "Domain of Vabbi" - however, since one map already got renamed since leaks, we have no indication the other four will or won't be renamed either. Therefore until we know the zone names, it is best not to make any new articles for what is likely to be the zones.

Now, if the world map had also not only shown Istan and Kourna and Dzalana, but labeled them (not even Vabbi or the Desolation are labeled - no new labels at all, unlike Strait of Malchor and Blazeridge Mountains), then I could see the argument. More so, if we had more lore than what little the movement of the world article provided 5 years ago - such as the lore we got of the Blazeridge Mountains and Strait of Malchor in-game (those two were very bad choices on your part - better example would have been Woodland Cascades, except we got a raid taking place there so that definitely merits an article; even Janthir merits an article due to direct dialogue mention - I guess best example for your argument would be Janthir Bay, but unlike Kourna and Istan, that shows up on the in-game world map and has a label on the world map). Konig (talk) 23:56, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Not to butt in on a clearly heated debate, but the name of the Vabbi map (and the names of all of the PoF maps for that matter) have already been added to the live dat. Super unlikely they will change. 163.172.67.180 00:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

They could easily be changed with a single edit to the proper line. Not drastically - we won't see something called "Domain of Vabbi" suddenly turned into "Wildflower Field of Lilies" but it could be turned into just "Vabbi" easily. Konig (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Halloween Lore

So I'm poking about on Youtube looking to see if I can get missing Halloween stuff and I'm having luck. Yay! However, I've run into a possible lore snag with Wynn: he states they ambushed Thorn and killed him, when the write up on Thorn's page says he was killed in his castle? Is this a discrepancy or am I just missing some details somewhere? - Do_odleplex 18:39, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, they stormed the castle, where they found him and killed him. So he did die in his castle. —Ventriloquist 18:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Ambush makes me think Thorn was out in the open though, as I wouldn't call it an ambush if he killed at home. - Do_odleplex 18:50, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible discrepancy. Alternatively, The Family Business doesn't say that the storming of the castle resulted in his death. Konig (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Isn't that article more about what happened to Prince Edrick than his dad? Well either way, I'll leave it up to you, because that's your strong suit. - Do_odleplex 22:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but if you read the first and last sections you'd see that it also includes the mob that stormed his castle... Konig (talk) 02:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Doppelganger (GW2)

Just got a message regarding the "Doppelganger Warrior" regarding the weapon set and weapons skills available. If my memory is "correct" (no guarantees of that), the Doppleganger is a copy of the character including CLASS and weapon. The latest change indicates that this is no longer the case?? Have the "doppelgangers" (of any class) now been given a "standard" weapon, with specific weapon skills? This change would "appear" to significantly weaken this foe, since the CHARACTER can now use an offsetting weapon kit without penalty. (ie: the warrior can use a ranged weapon while the doppelganger is restricted to the Greatsword). My "memory" of this foe (in both GW1 and GW2) was that it was designed to see how well a character could counteract themselves, and their weapon skills (at least the weapon/skillset that was ACTIVE when the combat began). ( I always loved having my foe "stuck" with a dagger in a gunfight!!)

Joel —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Undouble (talk • contribs).

The profession is dependent on the instance owner. The weapons are set in stone for the select profession. When I ran through with my engi, he held a pistol+shield, dopple had rifle. Ranger was using sword/warhorn + shortbow, dopple had longbow. Warrior had rifle equipped, Dopple had greatsword. When the episode came out, my necro had axe+dagger / staff, dopple had mainhand dagger (dunno about offhand if it had any). So it was never a case of the Doppleganger using the same weapons as the PC. The same goes for the Self-Doubt in S3E6 which seems to use the same weapon set up (Self-doubt necro had dagger mainhand and ranger had longbow, at the very least - and I think both for thief used dual daggers).

GW2's Doppleganger is dramatically different from the GW1 dopple, which mimicked the PC's skills from A to Z (sans PvE only skills). The GW2 dopple is just a nod to the GW1 dopple, but a pale comparison just like the rest of the trials. Konig (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification outlining the differences in this foe's behavior between GW1 and GW2. I suspect the "confusion" arises because each character "class", while having the ability to utilize many varied weapons, still has (1) weapon set that is the most efficient/effective one. For a Ranger, IMO, that's the longbow and shortbow (or axe+), while Ele's and Necro's use Scepter's to their best. What this means is: The distinction between the GW1/2 versions of this foe are "pretty much" blurred and they both "appear" to share the same design parameters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Undouble (talk • contribs).