Talk:Jumping puzzle

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• 2012-2017

Thoughts on converting this page to a table format?

Currently, the page as its continuing to grow is taking up more and more space and getting harder to find information. I was thinking of making a table with all the same information, for instance, columns would be Name of puzzle, notes, zone, region, mounts enabled/disabled, glider enabled/disabled. This would allow people to sort by mount enabled/disabled puzzles, or glider enabled/disabled puzzles, or by name, if looking for a specific puzzle, while still allowing a search by region/zone similar to our current structure. It'd take a lot less space, as new zones for living season and eventually a new expansion are added, I just think the current format needs to be condensed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bderagon (talk • contribs) at 14:47, 28 March 2018‎ (UTC).

Sounds good to me. --Idris (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree as well. Perhaps ssomething similar to the changes made to Mini-dungeon? Sime (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Exactly, I like that format, I'm willing to do the work tonight/tomorrow, just wanted to see what a few other people thought before I jumped in and did it. -- Xorekle.5610 (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Something like this? ^^ 17:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

It's good, but I think it might be better if they were grouped by region, kinda like how I did here. Just so it looks a little less like a busy box of text. - Do_odleplex 19:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I thought about that too, but then we'd lose sortability. The question is if we really need it, since the format used at Achievement#Categories, for instance, is indeed a bit clearer... 19:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I prefer Noxx's version. I think it looks slick and I like the ability to arrange the data by whichever column I please, rather than being restricted to only puzzles in a particular region. --Idris (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't have much time at the moment, so I tweaked my user page a little to try to show a little bit more what I meant by splitting by region. If anything maybe move the achievement under the name instead of having it's own row? I dunno, something needs to change, It's just too busy on my eyes. - Do_odleplex 21:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

So I missed this conversation completely. I realise I've just gone and tweaked Mini-dungeon to be (nearly) identical to the current format of this page. Region is imo superior - anything to avoid rowspans I'm happy with... Chieftain Alex 21:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Mini-dungeon?

Mini-dungeon about JPs: "Jumping puzzles are mini-dungeons with platforming elements, which are usually hidden and offer a Jumping Puzzle achievement at the end. Mini-dungeons with platforming elements but no corresponding achievement are generally not referred to as jumping puzzles."

Jumping puzzle's introduction: "Jumping puzzles are open world mini-dungeons with platforming elements that require the player to find the correct route to the end of the puzzle. The reward for solving the puzzle resets daily (per character) and is typically a Grand Chest, Splendid Chest, or Magnificent Chest. Completing a jumping puzzle will also reward the player with an achievement."

Here's the thing:

• Not all JPs are really hidden (in fact they can have events, adventures or map completion leading to them), while many "proper" mini-dungeons are. This is not a good sorting indicator.
• Not all JPs offer a Jumping Puzzles achievement, the achievement categories are fairly varied. However, the "proper" mini-dungeons also often offer achievements, and from several categories at that. This is not a good sorting indicator.
• Not all JPs require jumping, surprisingly. On the other hand, some "proper" mini-dungeons do, such as Vexa's Lab or Sanctum of Nabkha. This is not a good sorting indicator.
• Rewards of the "proper" mini-dungeons are also often various chests, and they also reset daily. In order to get the reward, you also need to "find the correct route to the end", obviously. This is not a good sorting indicator.
• Many JPs have gliding or mounts disabled to prevent skipping. But so do the "proper" mini-dungeons. This is not a good sorting indicator.

So... what does actually distinguish jumping puzzles from basic mini-dungeons? I'd say it's clear from the current state of the list that people don't always agree on that. Sanctum of Nabkha is here, despite being called a mini-dungeon. PvP Lobby Jumping Puzzle is here, despite not even having its own page. Noran's Safe Room is here but Melandru's Refuge is in the mini-dungeons, although I personally think they could very well be swapped.

We either need to define clearer boundaries on what constitutes a jumping puzzle and what does not (which is highly unlikely to happen), or we should just bite the bullet, merge both lists into Mini-dungeon and stop pretending JPs are anything special. 20:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd assume it's set up this way because Anent themselves have Mini-dungeon and Jumping puzzle as two different things in the dailies and achievements, and for that reason, I'd prefer to keep them separate. I do think perhaps we need to word those parts better so it's less copy paste i.e. jumping puzzles are in game puzzles with platforming elements and mini dungeons are small little areas with dungeon like aspects that included mini-bosses and sometimes include puzzle like elements(or something like that). - Do_odleplex 20:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Doodle that it's important to maintain the distinction because that's what the game does. That said, I wouldn't be adverse to a merge, but we'd have to rename the article to "Environmental puzzles" or somesuch and have JPs and minidungeons as subheadings. A benefit of this approach would be that we wouldn't have to make our own judgements about where to put unlabelled puzzles -- we can just stick them all under a header called "Others". --Idris (talk) 20:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I would have agreed with you years ago, back when the distinction was made according to the puzzle giving a Jumping Puzzles achievement, or no and later Explorer achievement, back when all candidates for either had a corresponding Daily to base the distinction on. But that is simply not the case anymore.

Not even Skip up the Volcano or Searing Ascent are described anywhere in the game (primarily in the achievements) as jumping puzzles. They might have been described as such in behind the scenes videos and by the community, but the game doesn't say that. And those are puzzles we can easily agree fit the description of JPs perfectly. What about Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment, Sanctum of Nabkha, Noran's Safe Room, Melandru's Refuge, Kusini Crossing and so on? Where do we take our defintions from? Because it certainly isn't from the game.

The line has been blurred lately but we need to list these somewhere. However, if go purely by what the game says, these fit neither category. One option is to take our definiton of "Jumping puzzles are mini-dungeons" and throw everything there. Another option is what Idris suggests: create a page Environmental puzzles with sections Jumping puzzles, Minidungeons and Others. The last section would then hold anything which fits the same definition (because frankly JPs and minidungeons have just the one) but aren't described as either in any official source; this option would have to include Skip up the Volcano and Searing Ascent, though, which might be somewhat hard to understand for the wider community.

Whatever the case, the current state is simply wrong. 21:37, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps anything that isn't clearly defined in game as a either one should be stuck on the page of the most likely candidate under the header "Unofficial Jumping puzzles/Mini-dugeons"? Also Skip up the Volcano is referred to as a jumping puzzle via it's other name of "Chalice of tears" via Ember Bay Master. - Do_odleplex 21:53, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The fact that Skip up the Volcano is only referred to as a jumping puzzle on a collection item and not in the achievements like all the rest, and the fact that Searing Ascent isn't called a JP even on its collection item, or that Abaddon's Ascent doesn't even have a collection item, those only underline the inconsistency in ANet's nomenclature. Does that mean that Skip up the Volcano was actually originally a mini-dungeon, until Aurora came and it suddenly switched to being a JP? That seems like a very pointless change, considering the puzzle didn't change at all...

The "most likely candidate" is exactly the problem as long as the two pages are separate. I'd personally say that Nolan's Safe Room is a copybook example of a minidungeon and yet it's listed under the JPs. I think that Idris's solution is the only real solution to this if we want to maintain the official descriptions where applicable. I'm just slighly worried that putting Skip up the Volcano under JPs because of a single collection item's hint but Searing/Abaddon's Ascents under Others will be very confusing for most players. 05:56, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

So, what about something like this? That should solve our problems with what is and what isn't a jumping puzzle... 20:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I'd honestly have the Environmental puzzles just be a separate page of the stuff that hasn't clearly been defined as mini-dungeon or a jumping puzzle, leave what has been defined on their respective pages, and slap "unofficial terms" on the bottom as the category. So, Sanctum of Nabkha, Noran's Safe Room, Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment, Disco Dancing Delver, Melandru's Refuge and the Pof mini-dungeons. - Do_odleplex 20:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I reckon it's simpler to consolidate all puzzles together rather than forcing users to hunt around for something that's clearly a jp but isn't on the jp article for obscure reasons. I like Noxx's mock-up. --Idris (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@Doodleplex: If we make a third page for the unclear puzzles, it will be a mess: I'd personally expect Searing Ascent to at least be on the same page as Skip up the Volcano and not be split apart. Having all three sections on a single page will give everyone a clear signal of "it might be categorized differently but you should still find it here", having multiple pages is easily overlooked. If we stick to the two pages and slap an "unofficial" section to each of them, we haven't solved our initial problem at all, since we could still argue endlessly whether something like Noran's Safe Room is more of a jumping puzzle or a minidungeon, and whatever we decide might not be what a user looking for that information might think. 20:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Well there might be a really simple way to solve all this, why don't we simply ask Stephane to get an official answer on the things that currently are unclear? If we got that, then there'd be no reason to create a mess and mash two things that Anet already has set up as being different. And if there's anything that that say isn't either one, then we stick that on this "Environmental puzzles" and include a link to that page on the two pages. - Do_odleplex 20:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

And then keep doing this whenever a new expansion or LW release comes out? The distinction only really exists in the names of Daily achievements, otherwise both types are mostly identical. Any "official" stance is simply based on whatever the person writing goals for achievements feels like that day anyway, this really seems like over-categorization... 20:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) That solution may work for now, but are we going to pester Stephane for answers every time ANet adds a new uncategorized puzzle to the game? I've seen this solution be proposed before, for a lore issue -- hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I've suggested it myself in the past out of frustration. This isn't a good precedent to set, because we're going to end up with a big list of Things Stephane Has to Check For Us every patch. We need to be capable of solving issues like this on our own. Further -- just because we have the Word of God that such-and-such a puzzle is considered a minidungeon by the devs doesn't mean that the game says it's a minidungeon. The wiki has to reflect the game to aid users in finding the information they're looking for. And I reckon I've just solved my own dilemma with the SAB power-ups... sigh) --Idris (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

A bit late to this party, sorry. I'm a fan of Noxx's suggestion. Things have become too blurred for rigid definitions to hold anymore. Attaching puzzles to relevant achievements helps to show some structure, and it allows for us to adapt to where Anet's blurred its own lines.

I'm sure there will be some teeth grinding over which category a puzzle falls under, but we're used to that. G R E E N E R 21:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Okay true I guess badgering for official answers isn't the best idea, but it wouldn't hurt to find out how how the defined "mini-dungeon", it might help us out as well. Either way, I'm against the merge since you'd be nuking two very popular pages just because we haven't figured out good definitions for and had as sort of copy-past description that nobody bothered to look into. I think perhaps we should definite it by the how you get to the end to define the "what is it": a jumping puzzle means the majority of the puzzle is completed by making various jumps/by platforming, and a mini-dungeon is a small area that has one more more puzzles that need to be solved or a foe that needs to be defeated in order to reach the end. By those very simple definitions, just about all jumping puzzles don't fit as mini-dungeons and vice versa and the two pages can be kept separate and updated accordingly. - Do_odleplex 21:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider a redirect "nuking". People will still find the same information as before when they search for "jumping puzzle" or "minidungeon". I can see how asking Stephane for insight on ANet's naming logic might be helpful information, but I stand by my statement that the average user won't be privy to that information, and will get lost more easily if we spread the information across multiple articles. What's an obvious approach to you might be confusing as hell for someone else. --Idris (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

That's a very confusing distinction. Jumping puzzles can have plenty of enemies and minidungeons can have plenty of jumping, and we're simply not going to count either to see which task is in the majority. By your definition Professor Portmatt's Lab is a minidungeon but Windy Cave Treasure is a jumping puzzle, which doesn't agree with the official labeling; the oh-so-many-times-mentioned Noran's Safe Room has a section where you need to kill an enemy and another section that's purely a jumping puzzle. And even if we devise a complex set of rules to unambiguously categorize each and every puzzle, that will still be a purely fan-based distinction that other players might not agree with and which, might I add, basically doesn't matter. And it isn't really "nuking" if people will still find the same information on the page they get to when writing the same search query; after all, that's exactly what redirects are for. 22:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

My instinct on this one is that "environmental puzzle" is a terrible name, and I can't in fact see why we're considering merging any of these in the first place. I can however see that the jumping puzzle page has become a glut of unrelated pages - e.g. Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment. Question: Do the explorer ones ever use the description "mini-dungeon" anywhere ingame? -Chieftain Alex 22:44, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Also, on this page, this is one of the cases where I'd encourage less information - purely (1) a link the jumping puzzle article, (2) the zone. No detailed description on how to get there, no waypoint, no mention of which achievements either. The mount and glider information is unimportant and could be restricted to being a one liner on notes sections of each JP... and yes I'm basically proposing the format from 2014 but without the sentence describing where it is in the zone. -Chieftain Alex 22:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

As far as I know, the term minidungeon is only used in Dailies in which case they last used that name in December 2014. The main issue with all of these is that they rely on incredibly vague definitions. When they add a new achievement, item or zone in the game, it's perfectly well defined that that's what it is, but the terms "jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" are nebulous, they are very difficult to differentiate, and they also appear very rarely in the game itself. To be honest, the very fact that we (here in the discussion or in general as a playerbase) can't seem to agree on clear differences goes to show that the distinction is actually useless. When we can't even decide about any actual gameplay difference, what's the point of keeping them separate, what benefit does it bring to the reader? Sure, JPs are often more jumpy and minidungeons are often more combaty and button-pushy, but not always and that line is blurred so much it's invisible to the naked eye. Back in 2012 we started separating them based on achievement categories, which is a method we can no longer use. It really feels like we're creating a problem for ourselves here on the wiki that doesn't actually exist. So, that's why I want to merge them, because I can't see any benefit from having them separate and as far as I'm concerned, "jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" are synonyms, where some developers prefer one over the other even if they talk about the same thing. "Jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" in themselves are terrible names, I can't see how we'd be making it worse.

Time has shown that people want that information here, and if we remove it they'll just add it later. I'd be fine with removing the directions from the Notes column as well as the Gliding/Mounts allowed columns. However, I'd keep the closest waypoint (it's the best indication on where the JP is exactly, zones are too big for that, since we can't really use regions due to the likes of Drydock Scratch or Searing Ascent) and I'd also keep the achievements (it's as good an indication on what ANet once thought was the puzzle's type, after all, that's what made us make the distinction in the first place). 06:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Mini-dungeons are included in a separate achievement category from jumping puzzles. We can argue what is or isn't a jumping puzzle, but merging both pages sounds pretty ridiculous and user-unfriendly to me.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) How on earth is splitting the list of so similar gameplay elements seemingly randomly into 3 pages more user friendly that merging them into one?

If you're so keen that jumping puzzles and minidungeons are completely separate things, then I encourage you to make a definition for them, so that all things the game describes match and so that anything the game doesn't describe matches exactly one of those categories, not both, not neither, one. Pay particular attention to Professor Portmatt's Lab (no jumping involved), Rebel's Seclusion (no enemies have to be killed), Griffonrook Run and Forgotten Stream (chest doesn't have to be opened for completion), Sanctum of Nabkha (no achievement involved) and anything created since July 2014, and especially even later on (achievement category doesn't match our old criteria). After all, if we can't define it properly, why bother naming it. I'd love to have a simple definition that covers everything the game offers and keep the two pages when, as you say, the distinction between the two types is so obvious!

In my opinion, achievement categories are a terrible way to base our differentiation on. ArenaNet is awful with consistency with terms they actively use, let alone with those they don't. If I remember correctly, the term "jumping puzzle" was brought to this game by the community before there even were any achievements for them, and the term "minidungeon" was used off-handedly by a dev in a tradeshow demo presentation before appearing in the Daily achievements (long after we even made the page for them) and then vanishing from the game ever since. The "minidungeons" aren't even in an achievement category named after them, when you so love those then why don't we call them "explorations" or something? Nowadays all of these types of puzzle areas are all over the place, in terms of achievements as well as gameplay, and there simply is no standard way to describe them. When we were in a similar situation with cosmetic auras, we simply made a term for them instead of fragmenting that information everywhere, and I believe we should do something similar here too. I'd personally dump them all into one table and let the achievement categories do the talking, but I'm fine with leaving the three sections on the page.

The current situation makes about as much sense to me as it would if we, say, decided we don't want to have a single page for skills and instead we split them into "attacks" and "heals" based on whether the skill's description include "Damage" or "Healing" facts, simply because that's what one dev called them in that one Gamescom demo way back when. Never mind all the... erm, things... that include both facts, or neither, after all they're completely different things used for completely different scenarios!

The last thing this wiki needs is making up obscure reasons why that one IP's edit adding the Abaddon's Ascent to the list of jumping puzzles should be reverted, after not consulting the manual we've made on identifying the signature marks of a minidungeon. But feel free to prove me wrong and make that definition simple and complete, I urge you. 18:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Reading a huge wall of text about something that seems fairly obvious seems like a bother. Jumping puzzles aren't mini dungeons and vice versa. I think it's simple... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.225.11.204 (talk).

Then if it's so damn simple, could you please answer my simple question (tl;dr version: what's the difference and how would you define them)? Three people in this discussion wanted to merge them and three wanted to split them, that doesn't scream "it's obvious" to me... 20:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I think this discussion is starting to get a little out of hand. Focus: Merging has been criticised because the (a1) "Envrionmental puzzles" is a weird name that doesn't appear in the game, (a2) it'd require a lot of explanation which our readers might tl;dr over and then get confused, and (a3) it'll be confusing when achievements are still split. Not merging has been criticised because (b1) the game is extremely ambiguous on how it defines the more recent puzzles. Please address these points specifically. --Idris (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm just getting a bit annoyed, because several people are saying merging is unacceptable without offering a useful alternative, or just use the "it's obvious" clause – if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this somewhat derailing discussion. But I'd certainly be glad to drop this and focus on constructive discussion instead.

As for your points from my perspective: (a1) It wouldn't be the first term we make up, there's a whole category of them, including Landmark, Cosmetic aura or Flavor effect which solve a similar problem of putting a name on something the game doesn't do well enough. If we'd have a more official term, I'd gladly use it, after all my original suggestion was to call them all mini-dungeons, but I don't like a lack of an official term preventing us from documenting the game well. (a2) Making the distinction and sticking to it would require even more explanation for our readers in my opinion and could lead to even more confusion if what they're looking for is categorized differently than they'd personally expect; keeping them all on one page alleviates that problem somewhat. (a3) The achievements are confusing no matter what we do, that isn't our fault. 20:48, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

And since I want to settle this more than I want to "push my own agenda" or anything like that, and since no one else here bothered to do it despite it apparently being so simple, here's my suggestion for a sorting key if you want to keep that rather pointless distinction alive and separated so much: Jumping puzzle is any of the "environmental puzzles" which is either marked as a jumping puzzle directly in-game or is a purely movement-based puzzle, be it jumping, gliding or mounts, with mobs being at most a distraction or guarding the final reward. If in doubt, it's a minidungeon. No vistas, hero challenges, mastery insights, specific routes only to a collection item or challenges with any other similar clear goal can be included in either (except if officially called as such, because ANet). No mention of achievements anywhere. This would keep Searing/Abaddon's Ascents, Sanctum of Nabkha and (iirc) the two Tangled Depths puzzles as jumping puzzles, remove the Verdant Brink Insight completely, and kick out Noran's Safe Room into the minidungeons. Jumping puzzles would remain the more pure category, with minidungeons capturing more of the grey areas since it's even less defined officially. I have only one requirement for this: the link to the other of the two pages wouldn't be at the bottom of the page but above the list and well visible, so that it's obvious to look there if what you're searching for isn't here. 21:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not against the merge itself, but the categorization. I think a simpler solution like this could work better:

• Main page: Puzzle
• Sections based on achievement categories, each with its own table:
  • Jumping puzzles: Everything inside Jumping Puzzles and jumping puzzle dailies.
  • Mini-dungeons: Everything inside Explorer and mini-dungeon dailies.
  • Other puzzles: Everything else, which would include everything released after LW2, plus pre-HoT stuff that isn't inside any of the above categories.

Then I'd remove excess of information (region and notes), and make the three tables sortable. Only open world puzzles would be included here, and Guild Puzzles would stay on their own page.

So yeah, instead of trying to categorize them, I'd just sort them by release.--Lon-ami (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

This seems pretty similar to Noxx's proposal, tbh. I have no complaints. --Idris (talk) 01:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

The major difference is that a lot of post-LW2 "obvious jumping puzzles", some even called that in their achievement description, would go into "Other puzzles" for simplicity's sake.

It's not perfect, but until we know what is or isn't clearly enough, I'd rather not draw any lines and just put them all together. The advantage is that, with no lines to follow, we can extend the new page to all kind of puzzle-like locations, including things like the lab puzzles from LW4-2.

Anyway, here's a quick draft. The achievement links for the first two sections could be removed if all the dailies are already inside the parent achievement category.--Lon-ami (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm certainly in favor of something like that, after all it's quite similar to my previous suggestion. There's just one thing that bothers me a bit and that's us relying so much on an achievement category that's been obsolete for almost 4 years now; it's not like we're only calling bosses those enemies that have a corresponding Bosses achievement either. Even the game describes the likes of Drydock Scratch as a jumping puzzle, only it's done in a different achievement category. Ask any player whether Drydock Scratch is a jumping puzzle and they'll tell you "of course"; however, ask any player about Abaddon's Ascent and they'll tell you the same, because frankly what else could it be, although the game never explicitly calls it anything other than an achievement...

This is exactly why I originally wanted to merge them completely, as it is by far the most objective way to list them all, but that wasn't accepted very well. So now it seems like we have 3 options:

1. have JPs be defined by the JP achievement category, which means that there will most likely never be any new "JP" after Southsun Cove (and in that case why should we even have the achievement column in the table...),
2. have JPs be defined by being called a JP anywhere in the game – this would include Drydock Scratch but exclude Abaddon's Ascent,
3. or have JPs be defined by either an official description somewhere or where it's obvious enough, such as in Abaddon's Ascent, with a small note that it's unofficial categorization.

The question is whether we want to document more the in-game text or the gameplay. I'd love to find a way to make the third option work as I feel that's what the majority of the playerbase would expect, but obviously it's difficult to draw the line. For instance, today I'd exclude even Sanctum of Nabkha from the JPs, and if I can't even agree with myself, how could we agree together...

Whatever the case, I'd agree with having minidungeons be based purely on official description since people don't really have an intuitive understanding of what a minidungeon really is, with the "Other" section catching the rest. If we go with the first option based on the achievement category, I'd make it very clear in the header that that's the only ones listed there, so that less people are looking for the newer ones there... 22:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

option 4 = players decide which are JPS. Any content which is mostly jumping to reach a final reward. --5.65.85.185 23:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

That's the same as option 3, unless you imply to leave out Portmatt's Lab from the JPs – that's something I'd love to do, but even I admit that if it has a JP achievement, we should count it regardless of how little sense it makes. However, "mostly jumping" is vague and even somewhat subjective, which is why we're having all of this discussion in the first place... 05:42, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

The good thing about my solution is that there's no discussion, everything gets a definition matching the game's categorization. If you want to go out of that, then we should discard the game's classification completely. It's impossible to make them both work together, which is my main gripe with the previous proposals. And yeah, Professor Portmatt's Lab is the biggest offender here.

We need clear rules, that won't lead to a debate every time there's a new puzzle introduced (we already have enough bureaucracy around here). So, we either follow the game, or make our own rules ignoring the game's classification, and stick to them.

Something like this:

• Jumping puzzles: High emphasis on platforming elements. Usually single-player.
• Mini-dungeons: High emphasis on combat and events to progress. Usually group oriented.
• Other puzzles: High emphasis on conventional puzzles.

Something on those lines. Then we apply said rules to every puzzle, no matter their achievement, category, in-game description, or whatever. We pretty much ignore the game's classification, and stick to our own, with all the consequences. Will update my previous proposal to show how this could look like.--Lon-ami (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) After going down the entire list of things listed on the page(not the talk page, I don't have time to read all of that right now) it is only Professor Portmatt's Lab that requires no jumps to be completed and is in the jumping puzzle achievement category, so I'd rather not go crazy over just that one thing; the rest of them are all completed by platforming from place to place much like SAB. So here's what I propose: We keep this page pretty much as is(I'd honestly move Verarium Delves over here, it's completed by platforming and has no other elements other than platforming, even the walkthrough calls it a jumping puzzle) and the mini-dungeon page is moved to "Explorer puzzles" since nearly all of them fall into the Explorer achievement category and that means you can pretty much plop in anything in there that isn't completed by platforming there. That way we follow the in-game descriptions/classifications, would take less time to fix up related links/infoboxes/categories, and should prevent any confusion I would hope as to what should be what. Also, I will note that Forsaken Fortune does has platforming elements, but that's only one small part of a fairly long chain of events. - Do_odleplex 17:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Just found this. In level rewards, jumping puzzles are described like this: Jumping puzzles are jumping-based mini dungeons hidden throughout Tyria. Each jumping puzzle can be completed once a day to receive a reward chest.

The initial points of the discussion haven't been properly refuted, and I still think the current setup could be better.--Lon-ami (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know what you guys are going to do with the whole 'merge/don't merge' thing, but I came here to try to answer a question on the forum about Jumping Puzzles in PoF+, and thought, according to the list, there was one, but upon further investigation (using the link), find it is a Mini-Dungeon, instead. Thus, the current page can be misleading to those seeking information. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 16:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Can we really categorize jumping puzzle Armistice Bastion as jumping puzzle ?

It will not reward you with loot or achievement. It only have a cat at the end wich can sell you Cat Commander Tag and minis. Wich you can buy in other WvW maps and yet there they are not considered as Jp. "There is no jumping puzzle." --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 08:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Those are not Armistice Bastion, which is: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armistice_Bastion and access apparently requires a gem purchase (I don't have this content so cannot confirm). As I noted earlier on this page, there is a JP page entry (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armistice_Bastion_(jumping_puzzle)) but no information is included there. Has any other editor been there, who can complete that page? Perhaps the confusion is that the name of the area and the name of the JP appear to be the same (again, cannot confirm). Hesione (talk) 1856,30 June 2019 (UTC)

Story instance jumping puzzles

What should we do with these two?

• Fallen Hopes
• The Way Forward

They're both obvious jumping puzzles, but we can't really add them to the list here.--Lon-ami (talk) 15:29, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

How about a mention in the Notes section on this page?

Fallen Hopes is basically the same as the Dry Top JP but a bit harder depending on whether you're doing the achievement or not. Outside of the story instances I wouldn't be using the same method in the open world.

The Way Forward isn't accessible outside the story, and only the "Walk a Fine Line" requires the JP. I think this is sufficiently covered on the story page. -Chieftain Alex 15:55, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Unfinished jumping puzzle?

"In addition to the 4 listed jumping puzzles in Caledon Forest, there is an unfinished puzzle that starts south of Town of Cathal Waypoint." Where? And how is it known that this really is an unfinished puzzle, and not just some interesting terrain? - Brian Kendig (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

If you search on youtube for "cerebro gw2" (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pNMlcNtuOE) you'll find the puzzle. The entrance to it was a hole behind a hut - I think it was patched with an invisible wall about the same time as mounts got released. -Chieftain Alex 23:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

There are some interactive consoles and disappearing hex pads similar to those found in the Spekks's Laboratory jumping puzzle. Here is an associated Reddit discussion. Separ (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Merge with Mini-dungeon? Take two

Well I've come here to necro a discussion because I have been searching in vain for the jumping puzzle in Bjora's Marches. The one that is required for the Jormag skin to Aurene legendary weapons. I don't know the name of it, but it is neither on this page or the minidungeon page. After reading through the entire wall of text above, and as an average wiki user, I am STRONGLY in favor of Noxx's suggestion to put everything in a single Environmental Puzzles page with sub sections for Jumping puzzles, Mini dungeons, and Other/Misc/Whatever. (1) It entirely solves the problem of not finding the puzzle you need, especially the puzzles that aren't on EITHER page despite totally feeling like jumping puzzles, (2) you can use a browser search function to at very least find the zone if you don't know which your desired puzzle is categorized as, and (3) I've absolutely heard people describe all of these type of puzzles as "environmental puzzles" in-game, in map chat. Puzzles like the Sanctum of Nabhka, or the bunny jp on the wall in Blazeridge Steppes were described that way in chat, or apparently the Bjora marches puzzle would fit this category, for example. If we have the Jumping Puzzle and Mini-dungeon pages redirect to "Environmental Puzzles" from in-game /wiki commands and searches, that makes finding the right page a non-issue to me. The issues discussed above have absolutely not gotten better with time and as a user, it feels ridiculous to have to search through two pages to find the information (and apparently a third page that I don't even know where to start looking for it!) I'm begging for these to be consolidated. (Also, we should make the tables sortable.) -- Shantavi (talk) 09:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I see no reason why these pages must be split apart. We should favor usability over semantics where possible (especially given Anet's inconsistency here). I am in favor of merging them per Noxx's suggestion. --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 11:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I remember starting this discussion years ago and then just no longer caring about it because it wasn't leading anywhere. Having now read it again, I also still agree with my past self and continue to think we should merge these pages, since all attempts at distinction are completely arbitrary, subjective, and often outdated. Unfortunately, it seems like our solution to the problem since then was to mostly stick our heads into the sand, and most of the grey area puzzles were no longer added anywhere because no one knew where to put them. Which is why you couldn't find anything from Bjora here, and also the absolute worst thing we could have done, because now we have a big backlog of mostly undocumented puzzles from half of the game's lifespan.

One thing that has changed is that EoD once again started using the terms "jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" in some of the achievements (but still not everywhere where people used them on the wiki). But Living World content generally didn't use those terms anywhere, and I wouldn't expect this to last anyway. All this attempt at distinction does is make the wiki have less reliable information. As far as I am concerned, the biggest obstacle to merging the pages and using something akin to what I, Lon-ami or Idris were suggesting, is finding the right page name, whether Puzzle, Environmental puzzle or anything else, which I'm not sure about myself either. But the main advantage would be to have a place for all the grey areas and to not force users on a scavenger hunt to find the article that happens to have the information they are looking for, which I think far outweighs any 10 year old and no longer updated achievement categories. 12:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Just my two cents: I've never heard, in-game or out, Jumping Puzzles, Mini-dungeons referred to as 'Enviromental Puzzles'. You'd definitely have to have some redirects if that term becomes Wiki-official. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Still against the merge for the same reasons as I stated above. - Do_odleplex 14:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure I would be for merging all puzzles onto one page, but I do agree that the non-jumping/non-mini dungeon stuff should be organized somewhere (the achievements in Icebrood Saga call them Light puzzles, right? And not sure if there is anything else). ~Sime 15:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)