Talk:Jumping puzzle

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Jalis's Refuge?[edit]

Was this supposed to be king Jalis,s refuge, or Jalia's refuge? I gathered that it was a stone summit refuge, and the alternate names in the game did not help in clarifying this. 18:22, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

King Jalis's Refuge - as per the map's name. There's 4 allied NPCs - one just talks about how she wants to kill the loiters, the second talks about how it was a spot that Stone Summit stopped at during their retreat north, the third is a golem who says nothing of importance, and the fourth is at the end of the puzzle who "just walked" and apparently didn't know of the grave robbers, creatures, and traps because she hardly ever looked up from her journal. This NPC explains that it was a place that Jalis was held up during a Stone Summit siege or something of the sort - so it's a place of irony in that it was used as a refuge first by Jalis, then by the Stone Summit. Konig/talk 23:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


What is the kind of chest this article mentions? Puzzle Chest? (suggestion?) Mystic Chest? Mediggo 07:36, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

They're simply called "Chest" They are not items like the Mystic Chest, they are akin to gw1:Chest, but without a key needed and the item goes straight into inventory (well, on auto-loot). Konig/talk 09:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
A chest found in Shamans Rookery had a Splendid Chest as the final reward. I also saw a chest by this name spawn elsewhere, maybe Demongrub Pits, but I forgot where so I'm not sure. Mediggo 00:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Marked on the map?[edit]

Ok so i didn't play the beta so i couldn't check it out myself, but are jumping puzzles marked on the world map? Or are they hidden, so that you actually have to explore to discover them? 13:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Jumping puzzles aren't marked, though they usually have a specific area name that appears on the map. Nothing on the map says it's a jumping puzzle though, so it's a bit of exploring. --TalkpageEl_Nazgir 13:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Sounds great, thanks! 17:25, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


So going by the list of Explorer achievements, we're still missing Behem Gauntlet, Wall Breach Blitz, Buried Archives, Craze's Folly, Crimson Plateau, and Spelunker's Delve. One of which is presumably the Eternal Battlegrounds puzzle. - Tanetris 18:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Added the Blitz, with a video, though i suck at formatting the wiki, so feel free to fix it. Drkn 20:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I'm pretty sure that isn't Wall Breach Blitz. I've done it multiple times and never got that achievement (in all 3 BWEs). Also the youtube link is a video of Loreclaw Expanse. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).
Fixed the link, thank you. I've done all the jumping puzzles this third BWE except for the EB one, which i've completed back during the last stress test (no fraps then), but i'm going to redo it during the headstart, asap, with recordings. Completing the one in Breached Wall yields the Breached Wall Blitz achievement, though i think you need to kill the veteran ghost that spawns up there, can't remember right now and i've recorded the second run for better walkthrough-ish content. It didn't yield the achievement before, only after the addition of vistas. Drkn 21:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Buncha new jumping puzzle achievements in the stress test grabbed from (since I never thought to check myself): Vizier's Tower, Branded Mine, Chaos Crystal Cavern, Dark Reverie, Fawcett's Bounty, Fawcett's Revenge, Griffonrook Run, Obsidian Sanctum, Pig Iron Quarry, Professor Portmatt's Lab, Scavenger's Chasm, Shattered Ice Ruins, Swashbuckler's Cove, Tribulation Rift Scaffolding, Vizier's Tower, Conundrum Cubed, and Only Zuhl.
Obviously, Dark Reverie is the one in Dreamdark Enclave, and has already been added to the page. Based on the similarity of naming with the other 3 WvW puzzle achievements, Obsidian Sanctum sounds like it might be the Eternal Battlegrounds puzzle? Or was the achievement for that already in? - Tanetris 15:02, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The naming for the three Borderland jumping puzzles followed color patterns, and the Eternal Battlegrounds follows a white color in the portals iirc, so obsidian doesn't fit it that much. Plus, it could easily be a new kind of name cuz it isn't a copy-with-new-names of the borderlands. You mentioned Vizier's Tower twice, btw, which I bet is in Orr. Konig/talk 03:50, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Double-checked the video, and for the record, I didn't mention it twice, it's listed in-game twice (once at the beginning of the list, the other near the end). As for Obsidian Sanctum... Maybe you have a point, but it feels like a pretty big coincidence to follow the "(gemstone) Sanctum" pattern, and both white and black are "neutral" colors, all colors and no colors respectively... I suppose we'll see. - Tanetris 04:24, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
4 new achievements with the latest stress test: Urmaug's Secret, Troll's End, Weyandt's Revenge, and Graze's Folly. Added Weyandt's Revenge to the page, as it was the LA one that was already mentioned. Someone else found Urmaug's also in LA, looks like. - Tanetris 23:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
As of today's stress test, there are no longer two Vizier's Tower achievements, Antre of Adjournment taking the place of the first one. - Tanetris 19:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Crash Landing appears to be new today. - Tanetris 20:13, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be another missing JP, I can't find one for Armistice Bastion (note redirect on the bottom of -Hesione 12:20, 27 March 2019 (NZDT)


My wife and I found that we could not use the teleporting abilities of the Mesmer in the jump puzzles even some of the vistas wouldn't allow it. Is this intentional or a bug? Whitesyntax 05:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hard to say, as some other skills do work across gaps, like the Engineer's Jump Shot, which provides a highly precise and nearly 100% sure jump to anywhere in range. Drkn 16:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
You can only teleport where you can walk. If there's an obstacle or ledge, etc. you need to jump over you cannot teleport nor shadow step there. It is working as intended, though sometimes I've shadowstepped or teleported inside environment and couldn't get out. Mediggo 16:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
there are some exceptions, but yeah, most teleports work only for getting you to places you can reach without jumping. Jump Shot actually jumps you to the location, and the Warrior's Hammer burst skill does the same. The exception (to my knowledge) is the Mesmer's portals, which seem to be able to go through walls and everything; just requires that the one laying down the portals be able to reach both locations, of course. --User Jioruji Derako logo.png Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 22:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Fields of Ruin[edit]

If someone that is good with editing. I found a puzzle in Fields of Ruin. Just south of Varim's Run there is a cave that leads to it. If you need guidence my game name is Mahalla (Sanctum of Ral server). I havent seen anything here on it yet and I have not finished it yet to have the name. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User: (talk).

Windy Cave[edit]

I removed it because it's just a POI with a random chest. There are many of those in the games like this one that don't have an achievement linked to it. Elementalist tango icon 200px.pngPôwer 16:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

An achievement was just added in the Shadow of the Mad King update, however it's not a Jumping Puzzle achievement but instead an Explorer achievement. That begs the question of what do we want to do with areas like this that are not grouped in-game with other jumping puzzles, or minidungeon areas that include jumping sections but are not entirely jumping puzzles. Vahkris 19:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Achievement only?[edit]

It seems people keep adding all the jumping puzzles, even those without achievement. It should be made clear whether or not those should be added as well. If they can be added, we should be able to distinguish those without achievement with those that have one. No matter if they have a reward chest or not. Merujsy 09:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure. There's the Explorer article for the achievement hunters. But thinking about places like the strawberry patch in Diessa Plateau - it absolutely needs a lot of skilled and hidden jumping, so it's a jumping puzzle. It just doesn't give an achievement.
Then there are places like Aurora Glade. Similarly hidden, with a reward at the end, but it requires more brute force than jumping. Those should also be documented, but where?
We may end up forgoing the "Jumping Puzzle" term, instead creating a split between "Puzzle Achievement" and "hidden places with a reward at the end", though the latter obviously needs a better term.
For now, let's just list everything here but add a note that there's no achievement. Tub 13:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
If that is the case then the intro needs to be adjusted... "They currently reward an Explorer achievement for completing each individual jumping puzzle, usually combined with a chest." Elementalist tango icon 200px.pngPôwer 20:44, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Griffinrook Run Broken?[edit]

Without giving too much away for those of you who haven't been here, an NPC that needs to give you a specific item to complete the jumping puzzle does not do so, making it impossible to earn the achievement. I submitted a report on it (along with a couple other people there), should we mention that it's broken in the wiki? The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • contribs) at 01:53, 3 September 2012 (UTC).

Sure. -- User Sig.png 02:34, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I just completed the achievement (and got the credit for doing so) w/o the item (item giver was bugged for me too). However, I could not open the chest at the end.
FYI: Item giver (at beginning of the puzzle, so I don't think this is spoilers) says: "...but you'll need a bomb to free it from the chest." This supports that you only need it for the chest, not the achievement. Funny, because there are two jumping puzzles in Lornars Pass. The other has a chest but no achievement. This one has an achievement but a bugged chest.
TIP: You will likely die many times trying this one... I suggest doing the run naked to theoretically cut down on your repair bill.--Mooseyfate 16:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Found Chaos Crystal Cavern[edit]

Immediately West of Old Piken Ruins Waypoint in Iron Marches. When facing west from the Waypoint, there is a cliff with some Cliffbats on it. Jump up there there will be a large hole hidden by some dead trees on the north side of the cliff. Jump in the middle of the hole and swim through the tunnel. You are now at Chaos Crystal Cavern and it is indeed a jump puzzle.--Duckmurderer 06:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I've added your tips to Chaos Crystal Cavern. Feel free to edit puzzle pages directly. -- User Sig.png 06:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Buried Archives Located[edit]

On the outside of the Cathedral of Silence in Cursed Shore, the first half of the jumping puzzle leads to the southernmost vista in the zone, all that's needed beyond that is to continue proceeding up the side of the mountain via rocks and coral pads, to a small tomb with bomb traps outside and several ghosts guarding. Upon approaching the chest a Veteran Risen will spawn.--kVolare 03:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I've added your contribution to Buried Archives. Feel free to edit the pages directly. -- User Sig.png 06:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Unnamed in Fields of Ruin[edit]

There's a small jumping puzzle in Halkor Meadows that starts on the cliff just northeast of Rosko's Campsite waypoint (you enter the camp and climb the lookout to get on the cliff). The puzzle is a series of stone columns that leads to a set of wooden stairs, another cliff, and a small camp with (in my instance) gold ore and a gummo sapling. There was no acknowledgement from the game of the completion of anything, but it was definitely a little jumping puzzle. --Ph03n1x 00:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit: Follow the cliff around to the left, past the hut at the top of the wooden stairs, and you will find a Tiger Den, part of the Spirit of the Tiger Achievement. --Marashni 16:51, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Found this also, from the camp you can jump along a series of ledges to the harpies at Tanglerot and from the last ledge onto a harpy nest roof. From there you can jump onto the next harpy roof and from there to a ledge to your left on the edge of the map (you need swiftness). This runs onto a path that leads all the way up round the back of the harpies, high on the hillside to a big tree. You can actually explore all of the rim of the world hills from above the harpy skillpoint all the way back to end up looking back down onto the path you came up by the wooden stairs.

I looked all over the back and no chest, no jumping puzzle update, nothing except scenery. Mind you I'm fairly certain you arn't supposed to get here because none of the cliff faces have collision detection and you can run through them to see the sea beyond. If this is a puzzle I can't spot the chest anywhere.


Two things I think should be noted on the main page:

  • You only get the achievement once per account. You may do it with multiple characters, but this only awards the chest (in addition to the gameplay fun of it). What I don't know, is if it's one chest per day per account, or one chest per day for character. I also don't know if it awards you anything else like map completion for that other character (I assume sometime, which that "some of the time" may only matter if you get to the beginning of the puzzle).
  • You may get the chest reward and "key-type" drops (some puzzles have keys or orbs, all of which function as keys that can be used any day) multiple times, it resets once per day. What I don't know, is when it resets. 24 hours? A specific server time?

So, I would go ahead and post this information, only I don't feel I know enough of the details to properly do so. Does anyone know these nuances? Thanks! --Mooseyfate 11:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

This is true for any achievement or chest. Specific items such as orbs can be noted on the appropriate puzzle pages.--Relyk 17:50, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

YouTube links[edit]

AFAIK, there was some discussion and, IIRC, a consensus that we should avoid linking to YouTube directly from articles to avoid giving preference to any certain YouTube channel, etc.. So how about linking directly to search results? I don't remember which of the numerous jumping puzzle solution talk pages had the discussion about this matter, so if this has been considered already, I'd like to know where... Example: Mediggo 13:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion I remember was here on the CommPort. (I'm really trying my best to make that abbreviation catch on, c'mon people!) I suppose replacing direct video links with a search results link would be more satisfying for the people affected. However, we should template it in a way that it can't be usurped - make it generate the search link from the page title, and probably include "Guild Wars 2" so that you don't get completely random results for things with generic names, e.g. The Dreamer. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 14:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

3 new jumping puzzles?[edit]

What three jumping puzzles were added on the 10/22/2012 update? 16:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Conundrum Cubed, Tribulation Caverns and Coddler's Cove. However, Vexa's Lab and Forsaken Fortune - and I assume the other new explorer's achievements - have puzzles too, so might be counted as JP. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malgalad (talk • contribs).
I wouldn't call those "jumping puzzles" but more of mini-dungeons, just on a far lesser scale than Flame Temple Tombs. Konig/talk 17:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree. Since they do not have a jumping puzzle achievement, and instead have an exploration achievement, I think it's best to just consider them mini-dungeons instead of jumping puzzles (not every one of them need be as long as Flame Temple Tombs). I added Forsaken Halls to the mini-dungeon page, I was going to add Vexa's Lab to that page if that's a good logic for mini-dungeons vs jumping puzzles. (I think it's a sound conclusion, at least for now) Vahkris 18:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Conundrum Cubed is not new, the 3 new puzzles are Hidden Garden, Coddler's Cove, and Tribulation Caverns. Hexfoundry Unhinged simply had an achievement added. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 18:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, definitely. I remembered that one of the four new achievements is old, but got confused. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malgalad (talk • contribs).

Re: Mini Puzzles / Offering Stone (Frostgorge Sound)[edit]

1. Offering Stone is a POI, not a Skill Point

2. The cave entrance is south of the POI, not "below" it

3. The cave is a cave, not a jumping puzzle.

This entry should be removed. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).


I keep seperating out of Maguuma the two that are in Steamspur mountains and placing them in their own group labeled Steamspur Mountains and it keeps getting moved back is there a reason this is happening? Mount Maelstrom and Sparkfly are nowhere near Maguuma. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iryano (talk • contribs).

Mechanically, they are part of the Maguuma Jungle. As the articles for Maguuma Jungle, Sparkfly Fen, and Mount Maelstrom all show. Mechanically, Steamspur Mountains don't exist. Konig/talk 16:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually the entry for Steamspur doesn't reference anything about the mechanics. Those mechanics only apply to exploration achievement. I understand your argument but for someone looking for information about jumping puzzles(which is the topic for this article)is going to be asking WTF(like I did) If they don't know this going in. From the Sparkfly article "it is not actually situated in — indeed, anywhere even near — the Maguuma Jungle or surrounding areas." Steamspur has it's own region on the map and it's own entry in wiki. Mechanics are not what the game is about. They are simply the mechanism for making the end result(lore that leads you from point a to point b/a fun game) and sometimes mechanics are wrong. Iryano (talk • contribs).
But how is Sparkfly Fen part of the Steamspur Mountains? There are no mountains anywhere in the zone. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 14:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


How about a note that torches usually imply you are on the right track? A hint like this is given in Demongrub Pits62.159.14.62 11:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Chest resets[edit]

It's not noted anywhere on the page how long it takes or what time the chests at the end of jumping puzzles reset after they've been opened.

AFAIK, they reset daily, the same way as achievements. It was discussed during CBT, but I can't remember exactly, and can't show proof. --Malgalad 23:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
LA chests reset at midnight UTC, and aren't account-shared like the last paragraph says. Other chests seem to be on a 24-hour timer and I'm not sure if they're shared. 11:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Account bound?[edit]

I think I've seen that achievement credits are account-bound... once you complete a puzzle, you don't get a new achievement with a new character also completing it. Right? Should this be noted on the page? --talk Large 06:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

First paragraph on Achievement page states they are shared across characters on account. Spark GOLD "talk" 07:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

List of Puzzles + Landmarks[edit]

My Jumping Puzzle Checklist, for those interested in a one-page summary of all the puzzles. Includes the region and zone and the chat code for the nearest "landmark" (PoI or waypoint). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Some jps have qualifiers to separate from area pages, User:Relyk/Jump list. We also have maps for traveling from the waypoint to the start of the puzzle that can be included (although that would add a lot of space, maybe just file link).--Relyk ~ talk < 21:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I have "unambiguated" the relevant ones. I guess it would be useful to link to the solutions and "getting there" maps, but mostly, I have found, those are one-time use things. I more often need the nearest landmark just to figure out where to start and the specific JP article already has the details. I've had two primary types of customers for the version I'm using: for guidlies looking for a few easy-ish ones (they want hints, not solutions) and guild leaders trying to organize mass-mesmer portal projects for the monthly. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Are these really necessary?[edit]

I came over from Guild Wars and am quite overwhelmed with the content of this game. There is just too much to learn and do in this game which makes it difficult to grasp and really have fun like in GW. I have come across these jumping puzzles and find they are more of a nuisance and a time-waster in this game. I would rather spend my time building up my character and exploring, especially with the vast content that makes it so complicated. But jumping from rock to rock or ledge to ledge over and over and over just to get to a spot and that's it, is just silly. I have yet to come across anyone who says they like them or want to do them. Everyone I've talked to hates them and for good reason. I doubt Anet will get rid of these but either have less of them or make it something optional that players who really want to do them, can for fun on the side, and not waste player's time and detract from the game. Just my opinion.

If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. Personally, I greatly enjoy them - even though some of them are highly frustrating, it just makes my sense of accomplishment that much greater when I finally reach the end. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 18:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Not to mention new 500lvl craft materials will be available in the JP's chests. MalGalad 18:35, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
They're already entirely optional. You'll never be told that you have to do them and all you miss out on if you don't do them is a few achievement points and the chest rewards, which are usually not as good as you can get elsewhere. Considering they're hidden by design you could also play the whole game and almost never notice they're there. Also I (a former and current GW1 player) love the jumping puzzles. Yes they're a distraction from the main game, but for me they're a fun distraction and a really nice way to reward poking and scrambling around in every corner of the game. Which I do anyway but it's nice to see a developer actually encouraging it and with something so appropriate. Danikat (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Poor Brisban[edit]

Brisban Wildlands is the only explorable area without a puzzle. Perhaps there is something wonderful planned? --Gold Recluse (talk) 18:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


Each of these puzzles vary greatly in difficulty. Is there any chance we could get a list of "top easiest/hardest", or list them in order of least to greatest difficulty? --SlatzG (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Difficulty is mostly subjective. There are only a couple puzzles that I would rate "hard" anymore, but some of my guildmates think they are easy. There's no clear way to document this. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 20:23, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Difficulty is really subjective though. There's really no way to measure it. There are a few universally recognized difficult ones, like Not So Secret and Goemm's Lab, but those are truly exceptional ones. Apart from the outliers, most jumping puzzles have a really similar difficulty. Every jumping puzzle becomes easy if you do it enough, after all. Psycho Robot (talk) 20:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
On the other hand, length is perfectly valid.--Relyk ~ talk < 20:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
More Empyreal Fragments as a reward it means it's harder to do.--W.Wolf (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Length is a more objective measurement, sure. The amount of EFrags is a measure of how difficult *Anet* thinks it is: Weyandt's Revenge rewards the highest tier of fragments, but I think it's one of the easiest, while Coddler's Cove is extemely difficult for me even though it has lowest tier of fragments. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 20:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Length doesn't have any useful indicator of difficult however. Coddler's Cove is one of the hardest JPs in my opinion and its also fairly short. I believe the pig iron jumping puzzle is a lot longer but is much easier. Psycho Robot (talk) 20:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean that length was a measure of difficulty, just that it's easy to measure it somewhat objectively. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 20:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Basically it depends on the player, the harder one for me is Not So Secret, and that Coddler's Cove is very easy for me. Well, we can put an average time in the jumping puzzle area infobox, no?--W.Wolf (talk) 20:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
I'd be happy with a simple note of how many EFrags it rewards, without having to go to each individual JP's page to find out. Also, I didn't entirely realize that difficulty was as subjective as it seems to be. I thought ANet had a general concept of this beforehand. --SlatzG (talk) 20:56, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Go to the Empyreal Fragment page and there you can see how many efrags it rewards for every jumping puzzle without having to go to each individual JP's page --W.Wolf (talk) 21:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't realize that. Thanks! --SlatzG (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Reset timer for jumping puzzle chests[edit]

Do the chests at the end of JPs (if they have a chest) reset on a different clock than the "daily reset" (which resets at midnight UTC)? I had a character at one a few hours ago, and I logged off. I'm back now after the daily reset, but the chest is still non-lootable. Daddicus (talk)

I was pretty sure it was on daily reset, but I had some stash chests for Troll's Revenge bug out when I switched characters and required a logout to fix. dangerCake (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, I tried that, but no luck. Could they have "fixed" this, thinking it's an exploit? I wouldn't complain if they did, but it would be nice to know, because otherwise it's a bug. Anybody have a dev contact you can ask? Daddicus (talk)
This morning, they were all available to loot. So, it was either a glitch (likely) or a change to the reset time, OR the addition of a window of time. What I mean by that is perhaps they made it reset "midnight, UTC or X hours, whichever is greater." I'm going to keep my eye on it (I do this every day, as a way of farming empyreals faster). Daddicus (talk)

Hero screen achievement correlation[edit]

Could someone please add the numbers now used in the list of achievements to the articles on each jp, so that we can work out which is which more easily?The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vana Runedottir (talk) at 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC).

MD/MD* Add Mount Disabled[edit]

We should add which jumping puzzles allow mounts, and which are disabled. Fright01 × 22:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

In addition to Gliding Disabled.png Mounts Disabled.png I would like green, uncrossed versions of each: Gliding Enabled Mounts Enabled to make a positive statement of which puzzles allow one or both. A puzzle with no icons may not have been evaluated. Ideally these icons would be added to the effect icon template, but I have no idea how to do that. Separ (talk) 02:07, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
I like the idea with the green icons. They can't really be added to the effect icon template though, because that'd require them to have their own effect pages (like Gliding Disabled).
But you can do this: {{effect icon||Gliding Enabled|icon=Gliding Enabled.png}}Gliding EnabledBlackice (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Thoughts on converting this page to a table format?[edit]

Currently, the page as its continuing to grow is taking up more and more space and getting harder to find information. I was thinking of making a table with all the same information, for instance, columns would be Name of puzzle, notes, zone, region, mounts enabled/disabled, glider enabled/disabled. This would allow people to sort by mount enabled/disabled puzzles, or glider enabled/disabled puzzles, or by name, if looking for a specific puzzle, while still allowing a search by region/zone similar to our current structure. It'd take a lot less space, as new zones for living season and eventually a new expansion are added, I just think the current format needs to be condensed. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bderagon (talkcontribs) at 14:47, 28 March 2018‎ (UTC).

Sounds good to me. --Idris (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree as well. Perhaps ssomething similar to the changes made to Mini-dungeon? Sime (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Exactly, I like that format, I'm willing to do the work tonight/tomorrow, just wanted to see what a few other people thought before I jumped in and did it. -- Xorekle.5610 (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Something like this? ^^ User Noxx Sig.png 17:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
It's good, but I think it might be better if they were grouped by region, kinda like how I did here. Just so it looks a little less like a busy box of text. - Doodleplex 19:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I thought about that too, but then we'd lose sortability. The question is if we really need it, since the format used at Achievement#Categories, for instance, is indeed a bit clearer... User Noxx Sig.png 19:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I prefer Noxx's version. I think it looks slick and I like the ability to arrange the data by whichever column I please, rather than being restricted to only puzzles in a particular region. --Idris (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't have much time at the moment, so I tweaked my user page a little to try to show a little bit more what I meant by splitting by region. If anything maybe move the achievement under the name instead of having it's own row? I dunno, something needs to change, It's just too busy on my eyes. - Doodleplex 21:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
(Reset indent)
So I missed this conversation completely. I realise I've just gone and tweaked Mini-dungeon to be (nearly) identical to the current format of this page. Region is imo superior - anything to avoid rowspans I'm happy with... Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 21:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Mini-dungeon?[edit]

Mini-dungeon about JPs: "Jumping puzzles are mini-dungeons with platforming elements, which are usually hidden and offer a Jumping Puzzle achievement at the end. Mini-dungeons with platforming elements but no corresponding achievement are generally not referred to as jumping puzzles."

Jumping puzzle's introduction: "Jumping puzzles are open world mini-dungeons with platforming elements that require the player to find the correct route to the end of the puzzle. The reward for solving the puzzle resets daily (per character) and is typically a Grand Chest, Splendid Chest, or Magnificent Chest. Completing a jumping puzzle will also reward the player with an achievement."

Here's the thing:

  • Not all JPs are really hidden (in fact they can have events, adventures or map completion leading to them), while many "proper" mini-dungeons are. This is not a good sorting indicator.
  • Not all JPs offer a Jumping Puzzles achievement, the achievement categories are fairly varied. However, the "proper" mini-dungeons also often offer achievements, and from several categories at that. This is not a good sorting indicator.
  • Not all JPs require jumping, surprisingly. On the other hand, some "proper" mini-dungeons do, such as Vexa's Lab or Sanctum of Nabkha. This is not a good sorting indicator.
  • Rewards of the "proper" mini-dungeons are also often various chests, and they also reset daily. In order to get the reward, you also need to "find the correct route to the end", obviously. This is not a good sorting indicator.
  • Many JPs have gliding or mounts disabled to prevent skipping. But so do the "proper" mini-dungeons. This is not a good sorting indicator.

So... what does actually distinguish jumping puzzles from basic mini-dungeons? I'd say it's clear from the current state of the list that people don't always agree on that. Sanctum of Nabkha is here, despite being called a mini-dungeon. PvP Lobby Jumping Puzzle is here, despite not even having its own page. Noran's Safe Room is here but Melandru's Refuge is in the mini-dungeons, although I personally think they could very well be swapped.

We either need to define clearer boundaries on what constitutes a jumping puzzle and what does not (which is highly unlikely to happen), or we should just bite the bullet, merge both lists into Mini-dungeon and stop pretending JPs are anything special. User Noxx Sig.png 20:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd assume it's set up this way because Anent themselves have Mini-dungeon and Jumping puzzle as two different things in the dailies and achievements, and for that reason, I'd prefer to keep them separate. I do think perhaps we need to word those parts better so it's less copy paste i.e. jumping puzzles are in game puzzles with platforming elements and mini dungeons are small little areas with dungeon like aspects that included mini-bosses and sometimes include puzzle like elements(or something like that). - Doodleplex 20:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Doodle that it's important to maintain the distinction because that's what the game does. That said, I wouldn't be adverse to a merge, but we'd have to rename the article to "Environmental puzzles" or somesuch and have JPs and minidungeons as subheadings. A benefit of this approach would be that we wouldn't have to make our own judgements about where to put unlabelled puzzles -- we can just stick them all under a header called "Others". --Idris (talk) 20:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I would have agreed with you years ago, back when the distinction was made according to the puzzle giving a Jumping Puzzles achievement, or no and later Explorer achievement, back when all candidates for either had a corresponding Daily to base the distinction on. But that is simply not the case anymore.
Not even Skip up the Volcano or Searing Ascent are described anywhere in the game (primarily in the achievements) as jumping puzzles. They might have been described as such in behind the scenes videos and by the community, but the game doesn't say that. And those are puzzles we can easily agree fit the description of JPs perfectly. What about Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment, Sanctum of Nabkha, Noran's Safe Room, Melandru's Refuge, Kusini Crossing and so on? Where do we take our defintions from? Because it certainly isn't from the game.
The line has been blurred lately but we need to list these somewhere. However, if go purely by what the game says, these fit neither category. One option is to take our definiton of "Jumping puzzles are mini-dungeons" and throw everything there. Another option is what Idris suggests: create a page Environmental puzzles with sections Jumping puzzles, Minidungeons and Others. The last section would then hold anything which fits the same definition (because frankly JPs and minidungeons have just the one) but aren't described as either in any official source; this option would have to include Skip up the Volcano and Searing Ascent, though, which might be somewhat hard to understand for the wider community.
Whatever the case, the current state is simply wrong. User Noxx Sig.png 21:37, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps anything that isn't clearly defined in game as a either one should be stuck on the page of the most likely candidate under the header "Unofficial Jumping puzzles/Mini-dugeons"? Also Skip up the Volcano is referred to as a jumping puzzle via it's other name of "Chalice of tears" via Ember Bay Master. - Doodleplex 21:53, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
The fact that Skip up the Volcano is only referred to as a jumping puzzle on a collection item and not in the achievements like all the rest, and the fact that Searing Ascent isn't called a JP even on its collection item, or that Abaddon's Ascent doesn't even have a collection item, those only underline the inconsistency in ANet's nomenclature. Does that mean that Skip up the Volcano was actually originally a mini-dungeon, until Aurora came and it suddenly switched to being a JP? That seems like a very pointless change, considering the puzzle didn't change at all...
The "most likely candidate" is exactly the problem as long as the two pages are separate. I'd personally say that Nolan's Safe Room is a copybook example of a minidungeon and yet it's listed under the JPs. I think that Idris's solution is the only real solution to this if we want to maintain the official descriptions where applicable. I'm just slighly worried that putting Skip up the Volcano under JPs because of a single collection item's hint but Searing/Abaddon's Ascents under Others will be very confusing for most players. User Noxx Sig.png 05:56, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
So, what about something like this? That should solve our problems with what is and what isn't a jumping puzzle... User Noxx Sig.png 20:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd honestly have the Environmental puzzles just be a separate page of the stuff that hasn't clearly been defined as mini-dungeon or a jumping puzzle, leave what has been defined on their respective pages, and slap "unofficial terms" on the bottom as the category. So, Sanctum of Nabkha, Noran's Safe Room, Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment, Disco Dancing Delver, Melandru's Refuge and the Pof mini-dungeons. - Doodleplex 20:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I reckon it's simpler to consolidate all puzzles together rather than forcing users to hunt around for something that's clearly a jp but isn't on the jp article for obscure reasons. I like Noxx's mock-up. --Idris (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@Doodleplex: If we make a third page for the unclear puzzles, it will be a mess: I'd personally expect Searing Ascent to at least be on the same page as Skip up the Volcano and not be split apart. Having all three sections on a single page will give everyone a clear signal of "it might be categorized differently but you should still find it here", having multiple pages is easily overlooked. If we stick to the two pages and slap an "unofficial" section to each of them, we haven't solved our initial problem at all, since we could still argue endlessly whether something like Noran's Safe Room is more of a jumping puzzle or a minidungeon, and whatever we decide might not be what a user looking for that information might think. User Noxx Sig.png 20:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Well there might be a really simple way to solve all this, why don't we simply ask Stephane to get an official answer on the things that currently are unclear? If we got that, then there'd be no reason to create a mess and mash two things that Anet already has set up as being different. And if there's anything that that say isn't either one, then we stick that on this "Environmental puzzles" and include a link to that page on the two pages. - Doodleplex 20:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

And then keep doing this whenever a new expansion or LW release comes out? The distinction only really exists in the names of Daily achievements, otherwise both types are mostly identical. Any "official" stance is simply based on whatever the person writing goals for achievements feels like that day anyway, this really seems like over-categorization... User Noxx Sig.png 20:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) That solution may work for now, but are we going to pester Stephane for answers every time ANet adds a new uncategorized puzzle to the game? I've seen this solution be proposed before, for a lore issue -- hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I've suggested it myself in the past out of frustration. This isn't a good precedent to set, because we're going to end up with a big list of Things Stephane Has to Check For Us every patch. We need to be capable of solving issues like this on our own. Further -- just because we have the Word of God that such-and-such a puzzle is considered a minidungeon by the devs doesn't mean that the game says it's a minidungeon. The wiki has to reflect the game to aid users in finding the information they're looking for. And I reckon I've just solved my own dilemma with the SAB power-ups... sigh) --Idris (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
A bit late to this party, sorry. I'm a fan of Noxx's suggestion. Things have become too blurred for rigid definitions to hold anymore. Attaching puzzles to relevant achievements helps to show some structure, and it allows for us to adapt to where Anet's blurred its own lines.
I'm sure there will be some teeth grinding over which category a puzzle falls under, but we're used to that. G R E E N E R 21:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Okay true I guess badgering for official answers isn't the best idea, but it wouldn't hurt to find out how how the defined "mini-dungeon", it might help us out as well. Either way, I'm against the merge since you'd be nuking two very popular pages just because we haven't figured out good definitions for and had as sort of copy-past description that nobody bothered to look into. I think perhaps we should definite it by the how you get to the end to define the "what is it": a jumping puzzle means the majority of the puzzle is completed by making various jumps/by platforming, and a mini-dungeon is a small area that has one more more puzzles that need to be solved or a foe that needs to be defeated in order to reach the end. By those very simple definitions, just about all jumping puzzles don't fit as mini-dungeons and vice versa and the two pages can be kept separate and updated accordingly. - Doodleplex 21:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider a redirect "nuking". People will still find the same information as before when they search for "jumping puzzle" or "minidungeon". I can see how asking Stephane for insight on ANet's naming logic might be helpful information, but I stand by my statement that the average user won't be privy to that information, and will get lost more easily if we spread the information across multiple articles. What's an obvious approach to you might be confusing as hell for someone else. --Idris (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
That's a very confusing distinction. Jumping puzzles can have plenty of enemies and minidungeons can have plenty of jumping, and we're simply not going to count either to see which task is in the majority. By your definition Professor Portmatt's Lab is a minidungeon but Windy Cave Treasure is a jumping puzzle, which doesn't agree with the official labeling; the oh-so-many-times-mentioned Noran's Safe Room has a section where you need to kill an enemy and another section that's purely a jumping puzzle. And even if we devise a complex set of rules to unambiguously categorize each and every puzzle, that will still be a purely fan-based distinction that other players might not agree with and which, might I add, basically doesn't matter. And it isn't really "nuking" if people will still find the same information on the page they get to when writing the same search query; after all, that's exactly what redirects are for. User Noxx Sig.png 22:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
My instinct on this one is that "environmental puzzle" is a terrible name, and I can't in fact see why we're considering merging any of these in the first place. I can however see that the jumping puzzle page has become a glut of unrelated pages - e.g. Verdant Brink Insight: Canopy Over Pact Encampment. Question: Do the explorer ones ever use the description "mini-dungeon" anywhere ingame? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 22:44, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Also, on this page, this is one of the cases where I'd encourage less information - purely (1) a link the jumping puzzle article, (2) the zone. No detailed description on how to get there, no waypoint, no mention of which achievements either. The mount and glider information is unimportant and could be restricted to being a one liner on notes sections of each JP... and yes I'm basically proposing the format from 2014 but without the sentence describing where it is in the zone. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 22:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know, the term minidungeon is only used in Dailies in which case they last used that name in December 2014. The main issue with all of these is that they rely on incredibly vague definitions. When they add a new achievement, item or zone in the game, it's perfectly well defined that that's what it is, but the terms "jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" are nebulous, they are very difficult to differentiate, and they also appear very rarely in the game itself. To be honest, the very fact that we (here in the discussion or in general as a playerbase) can't seem to agree on clear differences goes to show that the distinction is actually useless. When we can't even decide about any actual gameplay difference, what's the point of keeping them separate, what benefit does it bring to the reader? Sure, JPs are often more jumpy and minidungeons are often more combaty and button-pushy, but not always and that line is blurred so much it's invisible to the naked eye. Back in 2012 we started separating them based on achievement categories, which is a method we can no longer use. It really feels like we're creating a problem for ourselves here on the wiki that doesn't actually exist. So, that's why I want to merge them, because I can't see any benefit from having them separate and as far as I'm concerned, "jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" are synonyms, where some developers prefer one over the other even if they talk about the same thing. "Jumping puzzle" and "minidungeon" in themselves are terrible names, I can't see how we'd be making it worse.
Time has shown that people want that information here, and if we remove it they'll just add it later. I'd be fine with removing the directions from the Notes column as well as the Gliding/Mounts allowed columns. However, I'd keep the closest waypoint (it's the best indication on where the JP is exactly, zones are too big for that, since we can't really use regions due to the likes of Drydock Scratch or Searing Ascent) and I'd also keep the achievements (it's as good an indication on what ANet once thought was the puzzle's type, after all, that's what made us make the distinction in the first place). User Noxx Sig.png 06:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Mini-dungeons are included in a separate achievement category from jumping puzzles. We can argue what is or isn't a jumping puzzle, but merging both pages sounds pretty ridiculous and user-unfriendly to me.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) How on earth is splitting the list of so similar gameplay elements seemingly randomly into 3 pages more user friendly that merging them into one?

If you're so keen that jumping puzzles and minidungeons are completely separate things, then I encourage you to make a definition for them, so that all things the game describes match and so that anything the game doesn't describe matches exactly one of those categories, not both, not neither, one. Pay particular attention to Professor Portmatt's Lab (no jumping involved), Rebel's Seclusion (no enemies have to be killed), Griffonrook Run and Forgotten Stream (chest doesn't have to be opened for completion), Sanctum of Nabkha (no achievement involved) and anything created since July 2014, and especially even later on (achievement category doesn't match our old criteria). After all, if we can't define it properly, why bother naming it. I'd love to have a simple definition that covers everything the game offers and keep the two pages when, as you say, the distinction between the two types is so obvious!

In my opinion, achievement categories are a terrible way to base our differentiation on. ArenaNet is awful with consistency with terms they actively use, let alone with those they don't. If I remember correctly, the term "jumping puzzle" was brought to this game by the community before there even were any achievements for them, and the term "minidungeon" was used off-handedly by a dev in a tradeshow demo presentation before appearing in the Daily achievements (long after we even made the page for them) and then vanishing from the game ever since. The "minidungeons" aren't even in an achievement category named after them, when you so love those then why don't we call them "explorations" or something? Nowadays all of these types of puzzle areas are all over the place, in terms of achievements as well as gameplay, and there simply is no standard way to describe them. When we were in a similar situation with cosmetic auras, we simply made a term for them instead of fragmenting that information everywhere, and I believe we should do something similar here too. I'd personally dump them all into one table and let the achievement categories do the talking, but I'm fine with leaving the three sections on the page.

The current situation makes about as much sense to me as it would if we, say, decided we don't want to have a single page for skills and instead we split them into "attacks" and "heals" based on whether the skill's description include "Damage" or "Healing" facts, simply because that's what one dev called them in that one Gamescom demo way back when. Never mind all the... erm, things... that include both facts, or neither, after all they're completely different things used for completely different scenarios!

The last thing this wiki needs is making up obscure reasons why that one IP's edit adding the Abaddon's Ascent to the list of jumping puzzles should be reverted, after not consulting the manual we've made on identifying the signature marks of a minidungeon. But feel free to prove me wrong and make that definition simple and complete, I urge you. User Noxx Sig.png 18:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Reading a huge wall of text about something that seems fairly obvious seems like a bother. Jumping puzzles aren't mini dungeons and vice versa. I think it's simple... The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).
Then if it's so damn simple, could you please answer my simple question (tl;dr version: what's the difference and how would you define them)? Three people in this discussion wanted to merge them and three wanted to split them, that doesn't scream "it's obvious" to me... User Noxx Sig.png 20:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I think this discussion is starting to get a little out of hand. Focus: Merging has been criticised because the (a1) "Envrionmental puzzles" is a weird name that doesn't appear in the game, (a2) it'd require a lot of explanation which our readers might tl;dr over and then get confused, and (a3) it'll be confusing when achievements are still split. Not merging has been criticised because (b1) the game is extremely ambiguous on how it defines the more recent puzzles. Please address these points specifically. --Idris (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm just getting a bit annoyed, because several people are saying merging is unacceptable without offering a useful alternative, or just use the "it's obvious" clause – if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this somewhat derailing discussion. But I'd certainly be glad to drop this and focus on constructive discussion instead.
As for your points from my perspective: (a1) It wouldn't be the first term we make up, there's a whole category of them, including Landmark, Cosmetic aura or Flavor effect which solve a similar problem of putting a name on something the game doesn't do well enough. If we'd have a more official term, I'd gladly use it, after all my original suggestion was to call them all mini-dungeons, but I don't like a lack of an official term preventing us from documenting the game well. (a2) Making the distinction and sticking to it would require even more explanation for our readers in my opinion and could lead to even more confusion if what they're looking for is categorized differently than they'd personally expect; keeping them all on one page alleviates that problem somewhat. (a3) The achievements are confusing no matter what we do, that isn't our fault. User Noxx Sig.png 20:48, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
And since I want to settle this more than I want to "push my own agenda" or anything like that, and since no one else here bothered to do it despite it apparently being so simple, here's my suggestion for a sorting key if you want to keep that rather pointless distinction alive and separated so much: Jumping puzzle is any of the "environmental puzzles" which is either marked as a jumping puzzle directly in-game or is a purely movement-based puzzle, be it jumping, gliding or mounts, with mobs being at most a distraction or guarding the final reward. If in doubt, it's a minidungeon. No vistas, hero challenges, mastery insights, specific routes only to a collection item or challenges with any other similar clear goal can be included in either (except if officially called as such, because ANet). No mention of achievements anywhere. This would keep Searing/Abaddon's Ascents, Sanctum of Nabkha and (iirc) the two Tangled Depths puzzles as jumping puzzles, remove the Verdant Brink Insight completely, and kick out Noran's Safe Room into the minidungeons. Jumping puzzles would remain the more pure category, with minidungeons capturing more of the grey areas since it's even less defined officially. I have only one requirement for this: the link to the other of the two pages wouldn't be at the bottom of the page but above the list and well visible, so that it's obvious to look there if what you're searching for isn't here. User Noxx Sig.png 21:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I'm not against the merge itself, but the categorization. I think a simpler solution like this could work better:
  • Main page: Puzzle
  • Sections based on achievement categories, each with its own table:
Then I'd remove excess of information (region and notes), and make the three tables sortable. Only open world puzzles would be included here, and Guild Puzzles would stay on their own page.
So yeah, instead of trying to categorize them, I'd just sort them by release.--Lon-ami (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
This seems pretty similar to Noxx's proposal, tbh. I have no complaints. --Idris (talk) 01:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
The major difference is that a lot of post-LW2 "obvious jumping puzzles", some even called that in their achievement description, would go into "Other puzzles" for simplicity's sake.
It's not perfect, but until we know what is or isn't clearly enough, I'd rather not draw any lines and just put them all together. The advantage is that, with no lines to follow, we can extend the new page to all kind of puzzle-like locations, including things like the lab puzzles from LW4-2.
Anyway, here's a quick draft. The achievement links for the first two sections could be removed if all the dailies are already inside the parent achievement category.--Lon-ami (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm certainly in favor of something like that, after all it's quite similar to my previous suggestion. There's just one thing that bothers me a bit and that's us relying so much on an achievement category that's been obsolete for almost 4 years now; it's not like we're only calling bosses those enemies that have a corresponding Bosses achievement either. Even the game describes the likes of Drydock Scratch as a jumping puzzle, only it's done in a different achievement category. Ask any player whether Drydock Scratch is a jumping puzzle and they'll tell you "of course"; however, ask any player about Abaddon's Ascent and they'll tell you the same, because frankly what else could it be, although the game never explicitly calls it anything other than an achievement...
This is exactly why I originally wanted to merge them completely, as it is by far the most objective way to list them all, but that wasn't accepted very well. So now it seems like we have 3 options:
  1. have JPs be defined by the JP achievement category, which means that there will most likely never be any new "JP" after Southsun Cove (and in that case why should we even have the achievement column in the table...),
  2. have JPs be defined by being called a JP anywhere in the game – this would include Drydock Scratch but exclude Abaddon's Ascent,
  3. or have JPs be defined by either an official description somewhere or where it's obvious enough, such as in Abaddon's Ascent, with a small note that it's unofficial categorization.
The question is whether we want to document more the in-game text or the gameplay. I'd love to find a way to make the third option work as I feel that's what the majority of the playerbase would expect, but obviously it's difficult to draw the line. For instance, today I'd exclude even Sanctum of Nabkha from the JPs, and if I can't even agree with myself, how could we agree together...
Whatever the case, I'd agree with having minidungeons be based purely on official description since people don't really have an intuitive understanding of what a minidungeon really is, with the "Other" section catching the rest. If we go with the first option based on the achievement category, I'd make it very clear in the header that that's the only ones listed there, so that less people are looking for the newer ones there... User Noxx Sig.png 22:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
option 4 = players decide which are JPS. Any content which is mostly jumping to reach a final reward. -- 23:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
That's the same as option 3, unless you imply to leave out Portmatt's Lab from the JPs – that's something I'd love to do, but even I admit that if it has a JP achievement, we should count it regardless of how little sense it makes. However, "mostly jumping" is vague and even somewhat subjective, which is why we're having all of this discussion in the first place... User Noxx Sig.png 05:42, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
The good thing about my solution is that there's no discussion, everything gets a definition matching the game's categorization. If you want to go out of that, then we should discard the game's classification completely. It's impossible to make them both work together, which is my main gripe with the previous proposals. And yeah, Professor Portmatt's Lab is the biggest offender here.
We need clear rules, that won't lead to a debate every time there's a new puzzle introduced (we already have enough bureaucracy around here). So, we either follow the game, or make our own rules ignoring the game's classification, and stick to them.
Something like this:
  • Jumping puzzles: High emphasis on platforming elements. Usually single-player.
  • Mini-dungeons: High emphasis on combat and events to progress. Usually group oriented.
  • Other puzzles: High emphasis on conventional puzzles.
Something on those lines. Then we apply said rules to every puzzle, no matter their achievement, category, in-game description, or whatever. We pretty much ignore the game's classification, and stick to our own, with all the consequences. Will update my previous proposal to show how this could look like.--Lon-ami (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) After going down the entire list of things listed on the page(not the talk page, I don't have time to read all of that right now) it is only Professor Portmatt's Lab that requires no jumps to be completed and is in the jumping puzzle achievement category, so I'd rather not go crazy over just that one thing; the rest of them are all completed by platforming from place to place much like SAB. So here's what I propose: We keep this page pretty much as is(I'd honestly move Verarium Delves over here, it's completed by platforming and has no other elements other than platforming, even the walkthrough calls it a jumping puzzle) and the mini-dungeon page is moved to "Explorer puzzles" since nearly all of them fall into the Explorer achievement category and that means you can pretty much plop in anything in there that isn't completed by platforming there. That way we follow the in-game descriptions/classifications, would take less time to fix up related links/infoboxes/categories, and should prevent any confusion I would hope as to what should be what. Also, I will note that Forsaken Fortune does has platforming elements, but that's only one small part of a fairly long chain of events. - Doodleplex 17:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Just found this. In level rewards, jumping puzzles are described like this: Jumping puzzles are jumping-based mini dungeons hidden throughout Tyria. Each jumping puzzle can be completed once a day to receive a reward chest.
The initial points of the discussion haven't been properly refuted, and I still think the current setup could be better.--Lon-ami (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't know what you guys are going to do with the whole 'merge/don't merge' thing, but I came here to try to answer a question on the forum about Jumping Puzzles in PoF+, and thought, according to the list, there was one, but upon further investigation (using the link), find it is a Mini-Dungeon, instead. Thus, the current page can be misleading to those seeking information. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 16:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Can we really categorize jumping puzzle Armistice Bastion as jumping puzzle ?[edit]

It will not reward you with loot or achievement. It only have a cat at the end wich can sell you Cat Commander Tag and minis. Wich you can buy in other WvW maps and yet there they are not considered as Jp. "There is no jumping puzzle." --DiegoDeLaHouska (talk) 08:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Those are not Armistice Bastion, which is: and access apparently requires a gem purchase (I don't have this content so cannot confirm). As I noted earlier on this page, there is a JP page entry ( but no information is included there. Has any other editor been there, who can complete that page? Perhaps the confusion is that the name of the area and the name of the JP appear to be the same (again, cannot confirm). Hesione (talk) 1856,30 June 2019 (UTC)

Story instance jumping puzzles[edit]

What should we do with these two?

They're both obvious jumping puzzles, but we can't really add them to the list here.--Lon-ami (talk) 15:29, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

How about a mention in the Notes section on this page?
Fallen Hopes is basically the same as the Dry Top JP but a bit harder depending on whether you're doing the achievement or not. Outside of the story instances I wouldn't be using the same method in the open world.
The Way Forward isn't accessible outside the story, and only the "Walk a Fine Line" requires the JP. I think this is sufficiently covered on the story page. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 15:55, 30 June 2019 (UTC)