Guild Wars 2 Wiki talk:Community portal/Archive 20

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Have no idea how to reference that

I went to the Hidden Arcana of the priory recently (outside of stories, just used the fence near the heart of the priory), there is a closed room in it with several asuran stuffs, end of zhaithan tail + samples of risen. On that fence gate, I just noticed you have a wooden sign with new krytan: I've translated it, here is the meaning: "Autopsy Lab Do Not Enter", where to reference that translation of the writing and the others ones here? I don't even remember if we had already visited that mysterious room. --Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 17:48, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Checked Durmand Priory Basement and it is noted in the intro paragraph there: "An area to the north (on the right when standing behind the statue of Abaddon) is closed shut by a gate; with a sign "Autopsy Lab, Do not enter", written in New Krytan." Konig (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh okay, was lost seeking for "hidden arcana instance" haven't searched special collections: is it the name of the area? Thanks --Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

API IDs in files

I'd like to add the unique API ID to the file pages in some form. I've done this as just the anet file name in the notes section (534266.png for example) but want to figure out a consistent way to include it. I'm not suggesting any wide sweeping changes and honestly I'd only be adding it to files when I upload them or have to edit them, though I wouldn't mind if others did as well. The reasoning behind including the internal name would be to help with searching for if a file exists and for duplicates. As it is right now if I get the API for a skill I can pull up the link to the png and the internal name but since the wiki has no references to the internal png name it's not useful at all. I've been adding the ID so that I can find duplicates (or just figuring out what the hell the png was named in the first place). I see no downsides to adding the IDs and it would help me a ton (and hopefully others to prevent dupes and having to go page after page through every icon on the wiki as I have many times). It's been suggested to have a section called API ID or something to that extent but I'd like to hear what people think so that I can standardize my past and future edits. --Dak393 (talk) 12:09, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree this would potentially be useful. I'm thinking it should just be an "id" parameter added to {{ArenaNet image}}. If specified, it would show an additional row and mention what the ID was. This ID would be captured in a semantic property so we can go find it later if we want to.

Example modification to the existing template:

{| style="width: 700px; border: 1px solid silver; background: #{{#var:bg}}; margin: 5px;" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"
| style="width: 100px; text-align: center;" | [[File:Arenanet-logo-400-transparentbg.png|ArenaNet Image|100px]]
| This ''{{#var:image}}'' contains property of [[ArenaNet]] or [[NCSoft]] which is used with permission.<br />The terms of the permission do '''not''' include third party use. It is '''not''' released under the [http://gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html GFDL].<br /><small>Please see [[Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Copyrights]] for further information.</small>
|- style="background: white;"
{{#if: {{{id|+}}} | {{!}} {{!!}}This file originates from the [[API:Render service]], where it originally had file id '''[[Has API render service id::{{{id}}}]]'''. }}
|}

Example Appearance:

	This image contains property of ArenaNet or NCSoft which is used with permission. The terms of the permission do not include third party use. It is not released under the GFDL. Please see Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Copyrights for further information.
	This file originates from the API:Render service, where it originally had file id 5555.

-Chieftain Alex 18:05, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

That is so much better than my proposed added section. Would it be possible / useful to include the link to the render? —Kvothe (talk) 20:07, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Example full link: https://render.guildwars2.com/file/76CD08463A05730071D400254141B50E570662D3/61023.png

When Dak says unique API id, does that also include the string before the suffix? i.e. the purple bit plus the green bit? Without both, we won't be able to link directly to it. --Chieftain Alex 23:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I was not planning on including the full link since they keep the file names unique and the main point for me was being able to see if that file name already existed and where it was. The full direct link isn't useful to me since that's usually what I have to go off in the first place when I'm looking at the API info. I don't mind including it as well but again, I'd want just the file name to be easily searchable as the encoding before it I'm not gonna remember lol. If it works better to just pull the full link that's fine by me. --Dak393 (talk) 23:32, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Wiki users made content category

There is several users that I suppose, like Lon-Ami, make theory-crafting, possible expansion idea, invent story or RP even art maybe. Couldn't we create a new category like UserContent or Fanmade? I agree it isn't directly in-game, but it's a wiki content inspired by the game. If Devs are wandering here (Dunno if they are) but even peoples liking reading theory-crafting or looking for others ideas, adding a category like that will make all that content easily reachable. It can be interesting to lose yourself around the wiki by seeing what others thinks about a lore piece, or what they are dreaming off. Normal user-page would not have that category, but if it's a fanmade story/expansion/rp can be classified. Well tell me, dunno if it sounds good? --Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 23:28, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

One thing I would like to address is the idea that Anet could see the content on the wiki and then possibly use the idea in-game. Unfortunately there are licensing issues that would be in the way. When the Guild Wars 1 wiki allowed users to offer feedback, the users had to "...assign all right, title, and interest, including without limitation all intellectual property rights, to that contribution to ArenaNet, Inc., ...". Anet now prefers to receive all feedback via the forums as "Feedback shall be deemed, and shall remain, the property of ArenaNet from the moment of creation.". Greener (talk) 00:33, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer Greener. Through, I know I wouldn't be shocked or wanting to make a trial against Anet if they "stole" one of my idea, on the contrary, I would be happy, it means the idea is nice. I saw that in the past there was a project called "Q&A with devs" on the wiki but it got 0 answers and it's kinda sad. I don't feel like they are caring of the wiki or wandering around there. Even on the forums they are really discreet. I can understand the intellectual property issues, but can't users have a place to share their creations somewhere on the wiki by showing it to others? Also, I followed the gw1 wiki link, I saw that in suggestions page you can also suggest for gw2, is it still working? I spotted a very recent gw1 one from 2019's september. --Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 20:31, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently don't many of the user pages and a couple of user sandbox pages serve that purpose? I know someone has a "getting geared" guide on one of their user pages that I've definitely linked to on occasion. There's also a few RP character sheets, etc. Nothing is really there to stop people from adding content to their own user pages (and sandboxes)like that, and perhaps linking to other people. I don't think creating another category falls in line with what the wiki is for though. The wiki is for documenting "real" things in the game. If there's "official" categories for creative use it's more likely for users to get confused and perhaps believe fan-fiction over fact.

Basically what I'm trying to say is: There's nothing stopping you from doing that now, but I don't see the benefit of creating a sanctioned category/separate wiki-within-a-wiki. It could confuse users if they stumble upon the pages in error, and could potentially be a legal annoyance to Anet, who technically own and control this wiki. Perhaps you could look at other wiki website sources? Nothing is stopping you from ripping some of the wiki code and templates from here after all. ;)--Rain Spell (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Re: "...also suggest for gw2, is it still working?" It is not, sorry. There are probably a few parts of that Feedback namespace which are in present tense, but that's in error. The Feedback area of the GW1W has been closed in lieu of the forums. Greener (talk) 03:45, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Huge thanks for both of you. I will just explain it clearer: As example, I am using my userpage for idea of expansion, dungeon etc. Many are also adding their ideas and guides to their pages. But here is the issue: If you don't know the specific username the chances to find those pages are close to zero. A category is surely yes, unnecessary and incorrect because it isn't present in the game. But what about a page, listing all user pages with guides and ideas? If you look at the forums, we have a community creation tab whereas the main topic is gw2. I think all those creations wouldn't be there without the game. ^^ :/--Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 08:52, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

So you mean a Community page that's solely an annotated list of links to user pages with certain kinds of content? I do like the idea. There's really been a gap since Dulfy stopped, and the game has always been light on tutorialization. It would have to be linked on the main page to be found, however. I don't think it should be linked to from another kind of page. I think two main issues with such a list are relevancy/currency and curation. Will we have to add/remove links as they become outdated? We're obviously not going to be able to fact check every user page that wants to be a source, and generally it's bad form to edit someone's user pages without permission. Will the wiki be passively endorsing guides by displaying them? At the moment we do have basic walkthroughs and such on raid boss pages and similar. Would user guides be competing with this information? Traditionally, the wiki has only put basic guides out, especially when meta strategies involve bugs or exploits. (i.e. the Xera guide did not cover how to recreate the endless gliding/flying bug). Suggestions and feedback should still be directed to the main forums, and if someone wants to post their art and potentially lose the rights to its likeness, that's their prerogative. But an Index for user-created guides would be cool.

I DO really like the idea, but it would have to be implemented carefully to avoid drama and maintain the legitimacy of the wiki.--Rain Spell (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Yup, you perfectly understood the idea Rainspell \o/ well, I think it should be based on being volunteer, if you have a guide or whatever you want to be accessed by all, you simply say it. This way, the wiki have the agreement of those users. That user page will not be edited. If it's a guide, well on the concerning page, it cost nothing in trivia to say "X user made a guide about that". If it's a piece of art, well it kinda make me smile because once you upload an image on internet it isn't your anymore, you can just right click "save it as".... the only medium to protect you art is to add a watermark on it. :/

About checking if the page is still here; I would say it's like some npcs on the wiki, nobody noticed they disappeared from the game until someone notices it. I don't think there is a need to check time to time all the pages, once a guide or idea or whatever user page is created; nobody will ever edit it into something else, and if it's deleted the link doesn't work anymore. ^^ I don't really see your concern about "I think two main issues with such a list are relevancy/currency and curation. Will we have to add/remove links as they become outdated?" If a page doesn't exist anymore, I assure you I would remove those non functional links, a bot can be even created if there is a non working link to be removed after let's say 24h. There isn't any real maintenance, all the links are there and those pages will not change over time. Or a disclaimer like "Those pages should keep their unique purpose and shouldn't change into something else".

But what I want frankly, is just as you said an Index for user-created content. :) Firstly guides, and maybe other things secondly if possible.

"So you mean a Community page that's solely an annotated list of links to user pages with certain kinds of content? I do like the idea. I don't think it should be linked to from another kind of page."

Well, on the main page you add a section called "User made Guides/whatever" that link you directly to the page with all the links when clicked. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page under community portal?--Inquest Overseer Ezrielia (talk) 20:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, technically there is a simple way to do that, but could be troublesome to be "enforced": add those pages to a category and then link the category page to a more visible place (main page maybe). Just adding like [Category:User Guides] or [Category:User Created Content] works, but as I said it could be troublesome to set a guideline "requiring" people to add that. Maybe some type of template or something but still. I don't think it would require to be manually curated, adding a page to the category is enough to include it in a "list". It would automatically vanish from the list if it's removed from the category or the page is deleted. --Txonä Atan - (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Difference in keyboard language characters results in new/unlinked pages

This is likely already known, but I wanted to highlight how when it comes to page titles, the Wiki will treat what should be the same character (in this case a apothphta) as a different character when it has been types with a different language set, as shown in my edit history here. I don't think there is any potential solution to this, but I wanted to make people aware as I was really confused when I first came across it. Dave247 (talk) 19:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, the character you replaced is a "smart quote", or in this specific case "smart apostrophe" - it's really common within patchnotes where ArenaNet type it out in MS Word then paste it onto their forums. And yeah there isn't a fix.

Fun story: the best characters to hunt for are non-printing characters that have no appearance. And non-breaking spaces. -Chieftain Alex 19:34, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Snargle Goldclaw's books navigation box

Would it be possible to add navigation box template for Snargle Goldclaw's books? Similar to that on pages of individual items from gear sets, precursor weapons etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 109.227.123.52 (talk) at 12:08, 26 March 2020‎ (UTC).

Template:Snargle Goldclaw nav was created today which took care of this request. —Kvothe (talk) 13:45, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Probably not the right place...

Just wanted to say I really like the new changes to the Wiki; the pop-ups are great! Inculpatus cedo (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Nah this is totally the place for positive stuff! Darqam had a good idea with the popups. The real question is whether we go whole-hog and get infobox information into the tooltips. -Chieftain Alex 11:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I say, go for it! The more information (and convenience), the better. =) Inculpatus cedo (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, not sure if this is the right place, but... it seems like every page I visit recently that has a Widget is showing a 'Widget error'. I've tried refreshing the page, but no luck. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 04:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

It's the bug from Sunday. Page cache will clear either naturally or by pressing the "purge" button. -Chieftain Alex 17:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I've noticed that some, if not all, pop-ups give a description of the item/skill/whatever, but now lack the name. Is there a way to also show the name of what you are mousing over? Inculpatus cedo (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion

Would it be worth the time and appropriate to make a page about references to gw2 in other media, like for example the Asura portal in Black mesa? -Doctor Refrence (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it could be a good idea, I don't see issues with that. Txonä Atan - (talk) 22:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Item Sources

The problem: Raid boss reward pages are all wrong and need to be fixed. Currently we use the {{gather}} template to show the drops from the boss chest object (which is fine) and the {{contains}} template to show the items in the boss coffers (again which is fine). The issue is that the way you get most of the items now including the coffer itself is from the event reward after killing the boss (bouncy chest). We currently don't have a proper way of showing the item source from an event like this, especially when it's on an NPC infobox.

Possible solutions

1. We use the {{drops}} template instead and just count them as dropping from the boss itself. Could have possible issues when encounters don't have a single boss or are just events themselves.
2. Create events for the bosses and add the drops to them, could be separate pages. Would add clutter, pages, and more work.
3. Create a new template and/or property tag for event drops or something of the sort, could for bosses, bouncy chests, or events in general.
4. Modify one of the existing templates to accommodate for NPC/event rewards

Please feel free to add more suggestions as I really don't know what the best solution for this is. I'd like to get this sorted out so I can fix the drops and pages (lots of missing info and items right now). Dak393 (talk) 10:18, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I try to recap first what item formatting templates we currently have:

1 Gathered from set with {{gather}}, used on {{object infobox}} pages

1 Dropped by set with {{drops}}, used on {{NPC infobox}} pages

1 Sold by (Vendor list) set with {{vendor table row}}, used on vendor {{NPC infobox}} pages

1 Contained in set with {{contains}}, used on {{item infobox}} pages

1 Salvaged from set with {{salvages}}, used on {{item infobox}} pages

1 Reward tracks (Contained in reward track) set with {{reward track}}, used on {{reward track infobox}} pages

1 Achievements ({{achievement list}}) set with {{achievement table row}}, used on achievement pages

0 Rewarded by: the item formatting description states: "for items that are rewarded by content such as story rewards, level rewards, event reward, etc"

My first suggestion for this last section "Rewarded by" is to create the template Event item reward (or similar, we should avoid confusion with {{Event rewards}}, {{Reward}} is already taken for personal story rewards), that is will be used primary on event pages. However, the major rewards from the raid bosses have been shifted from the object chest into a bouncy chest which states "Event rewards" upon opening. I think using the template drops doesn't really fit there, so the new template Event item reward could be used also on NPC pages. This template will set the property Rewards item.

On the item page we would use the template Rewarded by where we ask for Rewards item and by context, first by "Event" with the header "Event rewards" and second "Defeating NPC rewards".

This matches with Dak's possible solution 3. --Tolkyria (talk) 12:55, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I think modifying the dropped by template would make the most sense. (I say this having little to no knowledge on the difficulties of adding additional parameters.) It's more intuitive and many bosses and similar have unique drop tables specific to the encounter. An example of how this could work:

For the Ancient Forgeman/other strike missions:

Current {drops table row|Misty Cape Scrap|collection=Strike While the Crystal is Hot}

Altered {drops table row|event reward|Misty Cape Scrap|collection=Strike While the Crystal Is Hot}

Would something like this be possible? This would involve altering 2 template, I'm realizing now. The drops tables and the dropped by one.--Rain Spell (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Doodle suggested to create and use the template Rewards item for adventure, event and story rewards and the template Rewarded by on the item page (which she already successfully used on the spanish wiki). I think this would be a nice addition here too.

Your example is very specific, ultimately, the best would be to do this by hand. Please correct if I'm wrong, but isn't a Misty Cape Scrap a {{gathered from}} task, received from the chest object: Whispers Emissary Chest (beside that the current manual text provides the necessary information)?

Dak's request is a little bit different, asking for e.g. Cairn the Indomitable#Drops (and not for the Cairn the Indomitable's Chest, which uses {{gather}}) which comes from a bouncy chest above/below the minimap and has the title "Event rewards" after opening it. They can't be really considered as regular drop, e.g. if you slay a NPC you get a Spike, probably with autoloot. It's somehow defeating the raid boss event related, but currently not haven't these "events" on the wiki. So due to the lack of the event, I would suggest to create/use the template Rewards item also for such cases. --Tolkyria (talk) 18:35, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I used that example because I believe it "drops" from a shaky/bouncy chest. My bad if it doesn't. Though I guess since it's a "fake" item, probably would have been better to do a different one. The rewarded template sounds interesting.--Rain Spell (talk) 19:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

This would be great as we could finally add the apple to Speak from the lectern to lecture against Joko's brainwashing before the instructor arrives. -Doctor Refrence (talk) 22:03, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Quick notice: right now there is a backend job running, see the following warning "Change propagation updates are pending (1 job estimated) and it is recommended to wait with modifications to a property until the process has been finalized to prevent intermediary interruptions or contradictory specifications."

Not sure if or when I can add the templates Rewards item and Rewarded by. However, if it doesn't matter and wouldn't interfere, please let me know. --Tolkyria (talk) 09:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I have created {{rewards item}} (used on event and story pages) and {{rewarded by}} (used on item pages in the section "Rewarded by"). The next step would be to extend the result format, e.g. sorting stories by story line and chapter. Please note for stories these templates are only intended for LWS, HoT, PoF, IBS stories and not for the personal story (which is already well documented with proper race and profession matchings)

Example: Voice in the Deep#Rewards, see this edit

Otherwise, let's see how it turns out and if we need another template. But currently I doubt it, the remaining item acquisition methods can be only done by hand. --Tolkyria (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

May I give a suggestion about {{gather}}? What about also splitting it like {{gather}} being used for gathering nodes and something like {{loot}} for objects like chests? It has always looked weird for me and confused me to use "gather" for those objects and sounded misleading. In my view "you loot from chests", not "you gather from chests". Maybe it would be something like {{loot}} to set and {{looted from}} to use? --Txonä Atan - (talk) 18:32, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Technically, there is no difference between a gathering node and a chest, both are objects that give items after interacting with them (sometimes requiring a key or a gathering tool). However, I understand your suggestion that the template name may not fit 100% but there is always a historical component that cannot be neglected (e.g. expanding the template usage from gathering nodes objects pages to all object pages, being the currently accepted and known template, being used on ~1400 pages).

Renaming a template simply because the name doesn't fit 100% is a difficult task that may run into many problems (my favourite example: the property "Has game context" was renamed to "Has context" but still a page was using the first deleted property in a smw query for four years, resulting in a more or less empty page), furthermore the wiki editors would have to relearn the template names. Splitting the templates could possibly lead to objects where both templates fit; overall two item acquisition templates for objects will cause more confusion than the current template name does.

Hence, I prefer to leave the {{gather}} as it is. --Tolkyria (talk) 08:45, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The biggest argument for splitting between gatherable nodes and lootable chests is the Empyreal Fragment page where we have 4 (maybe 5) nodes that people can gather it from and 80 chests that can be looted. It's not easy to sift through and pick out what can be gathered using a gathering tool or something you can walk up to and just loot.

They are also already categorized by type chest or resource node in their infobox so we don't need to create a new {{loot}} template to be able to split them up. Just changing it so it allows {{gathered from|resource node}} and {{gathered from|chest}} would suffice and then we could use a bot to split the Gathered from section into "Gathered from" and "Looted from". —Intricity (talk) 21:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This sounds complicated to me.

• As I already said, there is technically no difference between chests and resource nodes: both are using object infoboxes, hence both should use the same item template in order to allow straight forward editing. The same holds for the item acquisition section, splitting a template based on the object type and not simply on the infobox, would create unnecessary confusion.
• The unnamed parameter 1 in the template Gathered from is reserved for the item (default PAGENAME). One would need to specify a named parameter, which then have to be set every time... again way to complicated, we (at least I) want to simply add the template itself without any parameters every time (e.g. {{contained in}} or {{gathered from}}).

Indeed, finding the resource nodes in your example is a bit tricky. However, it's still no justification for me to split the item acquisition methods in several templates or sections.

But may I suggest the following: Theoretically, there isn't a single mainspace edit required (especially no bot edits that still has to be monitored manually) to split gathered from into a resource node and a chest subsection (e.g. ;Chests and ;Resource nodes paragraph headings). Of course both would be in the section "Gathered from" (but I think that there are already enough item acquisition h3 sections). However, practically, not all objects using the template gathers have an object type set. While resource nodes aren't any problem at all, the chest objects are sometimes missing its type for some reason. They might not look chest-like, e.g. Dragon Piñata, they are some heart related object, or the editor simply forget to set the type. Ultimately, this could be handled in one or another way. --Tolkyria (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

There's no difference in the sense that you walk up to both of them and press F, but that is not what a regular player feels when interacting with them. There is a clear distinction in their mind that a gathering node is a gathering node and a chest is a chest—a chest is not a gathering node to them or vice-versa.

There are templates with unnamed parameters that default to one or the other if it's not specified, like {{tp}} which defaults to listing the sell price, so you don't need to always specify it. In this case, we can have it just list everything until someone decides that section needs to be split into chests and resource nodes.

It is also possible to create new templates that just call {{gathered from}} with the specified parameters, e.g. {{looted from}} will call {{gathered from|chest}} (or some other template that splits it for us).

Another option is to just create an {{acquisition method}} template that just fills in everything for us as long as there's a subheader that returns a non-zero list of objects (although that wouldn't give us much freedom, so I'd vote against it).

If splitting them into ;Chests and ;Resource nodes is the easier option, then I'd opt for that. For the situation where people forget to specify the type, I'd make it so that those are listed in some third section (probably labeled "unknown") so that any wiki editor who comes across it can go in and fix it quickly. Otherwise, just list them all under chests until someone comes along and says "that's not a chest". —Intricity (talk) 20:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

While from a wiki user point of view a clear distinction between resource nodes and chests acquisition is more than welcome, it should also be maintainable for us wiki users. I have the feeling that a split requiring mainspace edits (e.g. adding new created templates or sections) will be clunky and might be messy, resulting in missing item acquisition methods, unintuitive template usage, etc... Hence, ultimately it might reduce the wiki user experience instead of increasing it (as it was the goal).

On the other hand to the introduction of new templates and/or sections which requires mainspace edits, you are also suggesting a templatespace only idea (which you immediately rejected for the right reasons). The closest to this idea is actually what I suggested above, interally splitting the template gathered from into paragraph sections (if necessary for the current item), which would preserve the status quo editing-wise and would provide the best possible split user-wise without mainspace edits.

I'm now pretty much repeating my point of view... it would be interesting to hear also opinions from other wiki editors. --Tolkyria (talk) 15:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Rename "Vendors" section on item pages

For example, Powdered Rose Quartz#Vendors. "Vendors" is kind of a misnomer because that section's main focus is what can be bought with that item rather than the vendors themselves. I propose renaming this section to "Currency for". --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 09:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Yeah if I saw the "vendors" section I'd expect it to be an npc vending the item which is the page topic. But it is not! -Chieftain Alex 17:40, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

→ moved from Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Bots

• Per the community portal discussion, rename "Vendors" section on item pages to "Currency for". --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 08:53, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, replace the {{vendor table}} in those sections with "Template:Currency for" --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion it's not that simple. E.g. Glob of Ectoplasm is currently structured manually, replacing this with {{currency for|Glob of Ectoplasm}} will remove important informations; hence I think this isn't really an option.

Of course there are some cases, e.g. any Skirmish Supervisor related currency, that have presumably too many obivious location, here of course a template without locations may serve it's purpose (we could reuse vendor table and hide the location columns manually). But in general the currencies have like 10-50 related items, and if there are 10 vendors, e.g. Jade Shard with {{currency for|Jade Shard}}, then currency for creates ten subsections instead of one compact vendor table. Also being able to sort by vendor, by area and by zone in one compact table, as the vendor table does, is a nice feature.

Furthermore, the template currency for needs minor modifcations to provide correctly formatted results in all cases.

Therefore, I do not recommend to simply replace the vendor table with currency for in general with a bot. --Tolkyria (talk) 23:08, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I dislike the way Globs of Ecto is organized at the moment, and I think currency for will present the information better. Downside is the page will get huge because of the laurel merchants, lol.

I agree that items like Jade Shard making so many short tables is kind of ugly. The compact table will be better in articles like that.

I don't know about simply hiding location on vendor table. The vendor names will still be repeating all the way down the table.

Also it's funny that due to "Template:currency for" showing vendors first, the vendor section header makes sense, for example Eternal Ice Shard#Vendors.

Edit: Upon reviewing the the pages that use vendor table, I agree that it shouldn't be replaced using a bot. --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 00:43, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

As you already said, the section name "Vendors" (or maybe "Related vendors") listing all related vendors fits more than "Currency for". Maybe we should keep this section name and rename the Currency for template instead.

Otherwise, the currency for template looks fine where you added it manually. It maybe misses the opportunity to sort by items, e.g. Grandmaster Artificer's Mark: getting all vendors for Mistforged Hero's Staff, I guess that must be done now on the item pages (definitely not favoured by some wiki users). --Tolkyria (talk) 09:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

LFG

It would be really cool if the you could mark your character as looking for a group, and other teams could scan to see who they may want on their team and message those LFG people directly. I know that the current system does this a round about way, but as a solo player it seems way less intimidating if a group contacts you to join them (as opposed to trying to insert yourself into another group. that was the way it used to work on EQII, and I thought it was very efficient. one of the main this I miss about that game. thanks. 68.104.63.184 04:50, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi! If you have feedback or suggestions for the game, try the official forums. This here is just the wiki, which is handled by players such as you are. ArenaNet won't see your comment here. Thanks! talk 07:35, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Josh Foreman Stream

Is it appropriate to have a transcript of Josh Foreman's Super Adventure Box Design Deep Dive on the wiki? As it is not an official Anet release I can imagine that it could be seen as inappropriate or unneeded, even if it is almost 7 hour of continues behind the scenes information about the design. -Doctor Refrence (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I say no because it's as you said, not an official ArenaNet thing, especially because he no longer works for them. We can take the trivia bites and whatnot, but I wouldn't transcribe it. - Do_odleplex 21:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Crystal Desert "completion"

How about a small group working on completing the entire Crystal Desert areas?? At present, there are many "blanks" (areas well known to the residents, but mysteries to players) that it would be nice to be able to "complete". To my (small) mind, gaining "entrance" to these areas would require players to obtain information and knowledge FROM the locals (IF they are willing/able/greedy enough to share!!!) Players would need to know the RIGHT questions to ask, and the RIGHT people to ask them of----------------with some vacuous clues to be found throughout the region. These areas may or may not have waypoints, POI's, Hearts, etc (although that would be nice------but costly to create), but could be added to the "Explorer" achievement as an incentive. Some entries could require Guild involvement to "mine out" the access point, others might only need "discovery" of the (VERY well-hidden) door/cave/mine/etc, while others may only need a "key". Right now, Brisban Wildlands has an access point to an "unknown" region that is (by all known means) inaccessible to everyone. (Although, based on location, it "probably" connects to the Woodland Cascades). Good places to start this effort would be the Sandswept Isles (after all, the citizens of that area know ALL about it!!) and/or the Domain of Istan (same excuse!!). And, this exercise would be a good interlude between story chapters, IF assets are available. Undouble (talk) 19:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for game content are best posted on the Official Forums, as the Devs may not ever read this page. The Wiki is created and maintained by players. Good luck. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Taking a political stance on #BlackLivesMatter

Hey all, this will be a difficult topic, but I personally would like the wiki to take a public political stance on supporting the #BlackLivesMatter movement. This originally came up in Discord which resulted in a heated discussion that left some community members understandably disappointed. Before I go in detail, I want to point out that nobody was in opposition of the movement itself; there were just different opinions on whether we should approach this as a community about a game, and how we should do it if we decided to do it.

For full transparency on what has already happened, I would like to add some backstory here: The topic first came up internally in the administration chat on Discord when we talked about supporting Pride month, following what ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2 are doing officially. We originally considered changing our on-wiki logo for a Pride version but realized that it maybe not to change the wiki itself. As one pointed out then, Wikipedia isn’t doing such a thing either and Pride month is probably mostly a US thing. We did continue to consider doing something on the GW2W twitter though, and came up with a few icon ideas to support Pride month. Around the same time, BLM was heating up but we weren’t too keen on taking such a strong political stance at that time. So instead, we went ahead with the Pride icon for now.

Shortly after, Horrible contacted me, suggesting to retweet the NCSOFT tweet that ArenaNet retweeted. I didn’t had an answer on that immediately, especially considering what was discussed before internally and how Stephane also suggested us to be generally careful if we wanted to do anything. After some more discussion and thinking about it, I wrote the following:

“I think I don’t want to retweet that message after all, unless there is a strong support to do so from the community. It doesn’t feel appropriate to join the masses of “here’s brand X (re)tweeting an interchangable message without really actively doing something themselves”, especially not on an account which has been quiet for such a long time. If this was a message by the GW2 or ANet account itself, then I would feel retweeting it would be more appropriate for the wiki account, but retweeting a retweet originally from the publisher (which we don’t directly interact with) I don’t know..”

I replied Horrible that I wouldn’t retweet this without community support, which I realized later to be a mistake because I was not elaborating my reasoning back then. What followed was a very heated public discussion started by Horrible on how we should take a stance, followed by different opinions that I will not go into detail here. However, my reply in that discussion was the following:

“If you want to come up with a message from the community, feel free to do that. If others are in favor of making that public, then I am happy to tweet that. I merely said that I didn’t want to retweet NCsoft’s statement, which you said yourself is very weak, especially not on one or two people’s behalf.

The problem I personally have with NCsoft’s message is that it feels like the generic ‘[brand] wants to tweet something about the global issue to stay relevant’, something Twitter is already full of, drowning the actually important messages by people that are directly affected. The fact that ArenaNet only retweeted this instead of coming up with something themselves (which would likely been more relevant to us, the wiki community) doesn’t make a strong argument for retweeting it either.”

The discussion didn’t go too well but I stand by what I wrote back then. A few days have passed since then and I am now bringing this to the community so we can decide together what we want to do. There are a few things I want to point out though:

1. We should not forget that we are a wiki about a game in a fantasy world. That makes real-life issues conflict with our goal to document the game. So we need to be sure that we really want to do this.
2. We have to keep in mind that for many people, playing games is a way to escape reality. For these people, it is by design that a game (and by extension a wiki about the game) does not involve real-life issues. We don’t know what goes on in their lives (and we shouldn’t imply anything!) so not doing something is also an option for keeping a “safe space”.
3. I want a message to feel genuine. That means that I don’t want one of those [brand]-messages that have been all over Twitter in the past weeks. Even if they are genuine, they don’t feel like it because it appears that these brands just do it to stay relevant.
4. While BLM is the predominant topic right now, I think it would be nice if we could come up with something that includes other issues as well, e.g. Pride. There are so many issues in the world which shouldn’t overshadow each other.
5. The original idea is to post something on Twitter but we can put a message on the wiki too if the community supports this.

Nothing is decided. We, as a community, can decide to do something publicly or not. Whatever we decide will not impact what we as individuals think about this issue. And I want to make clear that it will not undermine anything that individuals have been doing outside of the wiki. poke | talk 12:04, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm in support of us acknowledging #BlackLivesMatter, but on one condition: that we commit to undertaking the painful process of examining how we, the wiki, may have contributed to racism. I am not suggesting that the wiki is currently super racist or anything, but racism can be a lot more subtle than many people who don't experience it give it credit for, and it's entirely possible that improvements could be made. (Example: why do all our display screenshots feature white characters? "Neutral" backgrounds are relative to the item on display, and pink isn't necessarily more neutral than dark brown.) Retweeting the hashtag and dying the logo black mean nothing if all they accomplish is that we get to pat ourselves on the back for being woke; this isn't meant to make us feel good, it's meant to make us feel angry about the state things currently are and to push for change.

I'm also in support of us branching out in support of things like Pride—June is Pride month after all—but again, we must commit to making positive changes about the wiki. Thanks in part to Horrible, our Gender and Sexuality in Tyria article got a makeover yesterday, and I do think it's in a much better state than it was before. We can do this. —Idris 12:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The featured article spot on the main page is the perfect size for a well thought-out statement. For inspiration, take a look here:

1. TV Community: r/startrek and r/DaystromInstitute (7 days ago)
2. Book community: r/Stormlight_Archive (7 days ago)

I'd advocate for something a bit more strongly worded, given how much time has passed.

I would also like to second Idris's idea of outlining steps the wikis will take to fix our own inherent biases would also be a good addition horrible | contribs 13:59, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Although I agree that the wiki twitter should make a public statement in favour of BLM; I strongly disgaree with a statement being made on the wiki itself or the pages therein. The wiki has always kept itself devoid of refernce to the outside world. It doesnt reflect pride month on its pages, it doesnt reflect anything else either. It is a repository of information for a game and should stay free form taking stances within its page, upon global events. Their are numerous issues that we have not made comments on and nor is their any intent to either. (for example the riots in Hong Kong)

We are not a poltiical forum. We should simply follow the message being set out by anet itself with our own wiki twitter. We can phrase it better than they have, but frankly the wiki should only be tracing anet's stance. So if they change their icon to a rainbow flag, we change our twitter to a rainbow flag too. If they make a comment on BLM, we make a comment on BLM on our twitter too.

Beyond that is a step too far and opens the doors to a politicing of the wiki which I personally would be uncomfortable with. I say that as someone who has been on numerous BLM marches and as someone who identifies as gay personally... But I genuinley dont think the pages of the wiki should have a page on pride or BLM.

I also disagreee with horrible when he says "I'd advocate for something a bit more strongly worded, given how much time has passed.", as frankly I dont think the wiki has to go an extra mile or prove that its delay in making a statement was anything other than how a wiki community tends to work... through discourse and at a slow pace.

As for what Idris said; although I take their point.... I would also suggest that people have always been welcome to upload images for armour and equipment for characters representing any ethnicity. Work here is done on a volunteer basis and thus if you feel that those pages need greater representation, that may well be a project to commence yourself; however I do not want contributors to be worried about uploading a good quality picture of an item, based on their characters skin tone. First and foremost the wiki is here to document the game. -- Salome 16:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that we don't need to word it more strongly just because we're late to the party. A simpering apology for not immediately jumping on the bandwagon is exactly the sort of vapid gesturing we should be avoiding. I would bet actual money that the vast majority of companies and communities who made grandiose posts in the past couple of weeks promising to address racism will have lost interest in doing so by the end of the month. Our energy should be focused on actually improving the wiki and its environment.

As a white person, I don't have much insight into any issues we may currently have on the racism front (the white screenshot thing was the best I could come up with, and I probably shouldn't have bothered), so instead I'd like to draw inspiration from how we've been addressing LGBT representation over the last couple of years:

Positive changes in this area have largely come from LGBT users; other users have, for the most part, been really cool about it, allowing us to make the changes we knew were necessary rather than always talking over us or complaining about how unnecessary it felt to them as people with no stake in the matter -- an attitude which, unfortunately, is all too common in gamer spaces. We've come a long way, too; in 2014 our {{user infobox}}'s options for gender were "Male or female. No weird stuff." I added a non-binary option in 2018, and I was physically shaking while posting it because, thanks to past experiences in other gamer spaces, I was expecting a nasty response. I didn't get one; I was thanked. This sort of supportive environment, where the minority themselves are given the freedom and encouragement to lead the charge, is really important. If we make a statement on #BLM, I feel we should use the opportunity to assure PoC users that we will listen to and support them if they want to speak up on any failings they feel the wiki or its community have. —Idris 18:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

That all seems incredibly fair and I would agree with that sentiment. -- Salome 18:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

"We are not a poltiical forum" Yeah hi this is completely irrelevant. horrible | contribs 18:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

To add: if we were a political form, and we had waited 2+ weeks, things would be a lot more angry, and from a lot more people than just me. horrible | contribs 18:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I am, always was, and always will be in support of movements that move against bigotry like racism and sexism. However, I firmly believe that there is a time and place for such, and a fandom game wiki is no place for such. We are no company, there's no PR to gain from it (let's face it, that is why most companies partake in such stuff or don't); you will not find other game / fandom wikis making similar statements - not on their websites at least, maybe on their own social media outlets. If people want to support it, then 1) they already have been, and 2) they do so on their personal platforms or on public platforms established explicitly for such. They do not benefit from what is ultimately a random wiki maintained by random people with no influence in the wide world taking a belated stance.

Sometimes, speaking too much is just as detrimental as not speaking at all, and I think that using the GW wikis for such is speaking too much. Making a comment on the wiki twitter, while I'm not in support of, I'm not opposed to. But I think it's far more important to ensure that these two wikis are friendly to people regardless of their background, and that people shouldn't be "physically shaking while posting it because, thanks to past experiences in other gamer spaces, I was expecting a nasty response"; making public statements, especially apologies of or loudness due to lateness, is not at all important in the end and as I said, sometimes speaking too much is more detrimental than not speaking at all.

Rather than performing what is ultimately a PR tactic for non-political platforms and forgetting about it in a month, I'd rather see the wikis take steps to continue equality and fairness among the community. Put effort in where it matters, not where it makes us look good or feel more important for our deeds. Improve ourselves, not just tell others to improve themselves. Konig (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Your anger or lack there of Horrible, isnt really my concern; or the wikis. I'm not trying to be rude here Horrible, but the wiki isnt political. It simply isnt. It never had been. It keeps itself removed from world events and purely documents the game. The wiki twitter is more than welcome to follow suit with anet and make a clear statement. As a community however I agree with Idris and Konig, its up to us to make a community that embraces and encourages disparate voices to be heard and allows itself to grow in a way that can represent everyone, free from bias or judgment. That means listening to contributors from diverse backgrounds and ensuring that the wiki is a supportive and bias-free place for editors to contribute. Genuinley lets put in the substantive worthwhile work to show acceptance and equality within our wiki, rather than grandstanding for nonsense pretend PR pages for internet cool points. -- Salome 19:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Gonna echo Salome. It is not the wiki's role in any discourse to take political stances. Should it begin to take political stances, it should also be able to back up why it had been silent before, and once it has become a political entity, it also has to live up to that in the future. In general, this seems like a poor choice for a resource intended to provide objective documentation of a video game. Furthermore, I personally have limited patience for boilerplate Twitter activism that is intended more to earn praise than it is to actually affect meaningful change in the power structures that be (see also: lazy corporate How Do You Do Fellow Gays that comes up every Pride month). Seeing as I do not see any discussion about ways to provide substantive help, I cannot help but feel like this is a similarly empty gesture. Aqua_[talk] 21:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

"Seeing as I do not see any discussion about ways to provide substantive help, I cannot help but feel like this is a similarly empty gesture." — You make a good point here; saying "no need to grandstand on twitter; we just have to be cool and open-minded" is a pretty way of getting out of addressing the problem while still getting to pat ourselves on the back for addressing it. Horrible's examples included links to anti-racism resources; if we actually agree with BLM's message, and we actually want to commit to making the wiki a welcoming place for PoC, we should be encouraging each other to pursue these sources and learn from them, even if we think we don't need to. Especially if we think we don't need to. —Idris 22:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreeing with Konig, Salome, and Aqua here. I also think Idris makes a very good point that we should make sure the wiki is inclusive/open to everyone all year round. We are not politics or a PR machine, we are a group of people documenting the game, and we're all behind virtual identities that are unrelated to our biological traits or cultural backgrounds. We need to find out how we are doing in case of racism, sexism, etc. (from the people who actually know about it) and then work to become better. ~ Sanna 22:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

(Reset indent) (Edit conflict) I appreciate everyone discussing this so civilly. I think it might streamline the conversation more if we identified HOW we would implement changes/support declarations IF we decide to do so. We so far can all agree that superficial changes and messages of support can be see as rather trite. But as the saying goes: Silence is violence. Would showing passive support be harmful to the wiki's community or to the game's community? If Pride Month changes could be made easily, then I don't see why BLM changes can't be made. What does any action we take actually look like? Once we identify that, I believe it will be easier to decide whether we should or not. If no concrete changes can be conceived (besides addressing our lack of black human skin models), then I personally think we should simply educate ourselves and strive to be more inclusive.--Rain Spell (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I personally am open to us gorwing, but I think we need to actually hear from contributors who feel discriminated against or not represented. So that were led by lived experienced and can grow in a way thats fundamentally useful to people from disparate backgrounds. As a white contributor... i dont really feel comfortable voicing what needs to be done on the wiki, as ultimately its not lived experience for me and it can come across abit "white Saviour"-esque. I'm very happy however to listen and to contribute to how the wiki can grow and potentially be more encompassing in the future. Saying all of that however I will simply re-iterate that I dont think a pride statement or page or a BLM statement or page on the wiki itself, is apporpriate.... but i think we all mostly agree on that. -- Salome 23:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

In terms of concrete actions we can take right now:

1. There's technically no harm in retweeting the hashtag, or even in making a longer statement as per Horrible's suggestion, since we're treating it as it was intended -- as an opportunity to examine our own biases and become more inclusive. Knowing that we put it out there might also help us hold ourselves accountable, and commit to this instead of forgetting about it once the next Big Thing in the News comes along.
2. Another way of holding ourselves accountable might be to put it in writing on the wiki. I know that concrete policies aren't really a thing we do here, but perhaps we could consider adding a paragraph to Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Practices and processes outlining the atmosphere we're striving to create here? It doesn't have to be overtly political.
3. We could extend an invitation to the larger GW2 community for more PoC players to join the wiki. None of them would be obligated to take the lead in making changes or speaking out against racism they see here if they don't want to, of course. But we could always use more users, so why not?

—Idris 01:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I concur with what Salome, Konig, Aquadrizzt and Sanna said. The wiki is a place of knowledge, where many different individuals collaborate in a civil and respectful manner. Ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, political stances should have no impact on editing and the way we treat each other. We're all human beings here, with one goal: to document the game. Thus, the wiki should not be a political playground of any kind. We owe it to the community to foster a welcoming and peaceful environment for everyone, period.

Re Idris' suggestions:

I have no real opinion on option 1, but I think we might be a bit late to the party by now. Most companies already switched back to their regular logos and/or pride versions, too.

As for option 2, I can get behind that. Perhaps we could copy the bit about wiki etiquette from the Template:Welcome over there and elaborate a bit on it, if necessary.

Lastly, I find option 3 to be in incredibly poor taste, although it's well-meant. We do need more users and yes, we should advertise for people to join us, but it shouldn't solely address a certain group of people to fill an imaginary quota to appease our (guilty) consciences. Isn't that in itself racism, too? talk 09:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I find my own opinion well put into words by Aqua, Inc, Konig, Salome and Sanna. The point of this project/wiki is to create a resource of knowlege that reflects the state of the game.

The wiki should always strive to be open to anyone, everyone should be heared and taken seriously. The wiki could restate that it is open for anyone. Inviting a "minority" specifically or taking a stance on political matters (or any matter not concerning the wiki) is off grounds as I see the wiki. —Kvothe (talk) 10:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like consensus is leaning towards option 2, then? I like Inc's idea of using the Welcome bot's paragraph. On a related note, an idea I've had bouncing around in my head for a while now is to write up an in-depth guide to user conduct that could get its own article in the help/gw2w space; it's all well and good to tell people to be nice and assume good faith, but that's a skill not everyone is good at, so some folks might benefit from targeted tips like "don't get involved in discussions while you're angry" etc. —Idris 02:07, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

(Reset indent) No responses in over a week. In that same timespan, there were Ninety-nine edits on Tanetris's RFA and its talk page. This not only shows that the members of the wiki are far more interested in their own internal politics than in real world matters (unless you're a person of influence, nothing you do on an individual level can match the potential impact of the wiki, so please don't try to confuse the issue here), but also approval of the status quo both IRL and on the wiki. As Idris pointed out here, there are dozens of ways the wiki can be more inclusive, and the refusal to discuss them is a direct slap in the face to everyone impacted. horrible | contribs 17:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Horrible, welcome back. I understand why you're angry at the lack of activity, but it would be really helpful if you could comment on my related proposal in the section below so we can actually make some progress towards the changes we talked about here. :) —Idris 18:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks like I'll repeat what lots of others have said before. The wiki, from definition, is dedicated to finding and sharing information about the game. What we do, could be, in some way, considered 'science'. We are in no way related to politics of the real world, and thus I (and a lot of other editors, based on above discussion) believe we should not take a stance in this matter as a wiki.

(I'm not against BLM if that makes you think so, I wish they managed to change something for the better.)

I've got one more point to say. "... members of the wiki are far more interested in their own internal politics than in real world matters." You forgot something very important there: 'When it comes to wiki, ...' You have no idea who we are in real life and how much we are active/inactive in political manners.

TLDR: The wiki is not a political subject, and so shouldn't take a stance. DJemba (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

We have black editors. We have trans editors. We are a community that contains countless minority editors who are not treated fairly across the world, and this wiki has helped perpetuate that injustice. Making a statement in support of their right to exist is not something that should be seen as controversial. We also need to make an effort to improve the wiki, and ensure that everyone feels welcome on the wiki, regardless of who they are. If we actively choose to say nothing, we are giving approval to how things are.

Also, I suggest you re-read the italicized line directly after that quote; it directly addressees precisely what you're saying I forgot. horrible | contribs 20:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Folks, I think this discussion is starting to become unhelpful. Academic discussions of how political a wiki should be are less effective than making concrete changes towards the goal I feel safe in saying we all agree with -- that the wiki should be an inclusive space for all of our users that encourages us to be the best people we can be. We're making some good progress in the section below; please consider joining in. —Idris 20:40, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

These are two different discussions, though lower one is part of this. A policy change won't matter to anyone who isn't already a part of the wiki. horrible | contribs 20:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I guess I see it this way: there's a deluge of twitter grandstanding going on right now, much of which is unlikely to actually result in positive change. And people know that most of it is bullshit. On the other hand, there are groups that are using this as an opportunity to grow, and that growth is going to take place over many months and years from now, not just in the present moment of anger. Is there harm in taking our time to make sure we do this right before we start reaching out to people outside our community, instead of making promises today that nobody has any reason to trust us on following through with? For example, Tanetris suggested below that we could start a wiki project, and I think that's a really good idea -- once we have it up and running, we could advertise it on reddit and twitter. —Idris 21:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

“A policy change won't matter to anyone who isn't already a part of the wiki.” - But a public message of our support will also not matter to anyone really. It’s not like showing our support will have any actual benefit.

I agree with what others said in this section and also the one below on Idris’ proposal that we should try to actually do something. And when thinking about what we can do, we should keep in mind that we are a wiki about a game. So I think it makes sense to try to work on things we can actually improve as a community. Idris mentioned the character screenshots above and I think that’s a great example for something we can actually contribute to this topic. Instead of making a random statement without any action, let’s make a promise to improve on content where we, as a community, failed to be as inclusive as we could have in the past. Let’s collect issues with our content, openly asking people to look out for it, and work on improving the situation; making an impact in an area where we can actually have an impact.

I personally think that would be a lot more honest than posting a statement about how we support BLM without following action. And if we want, we can still tweet about what we are trying to do. poke | talk 19:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Why would we try to turn a "GAME DISCUSSION PAGE" into a "Political Statement"?? My STRONG suggestion is to keep the POLITICS out of THIS arena---------since THAT SUBJECT has NO relevance to THIS subject matter!!!! This is A GAME------------NOT a "real life" situation!!! KEEP IT THAT WAY!!! Undouble (talk) 01:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I know I'm late to the party but I agree 100% with leaving the politics outside of the wiki. Let people who want to make a statement do so on their individual pages. Drogo Boffin 21:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Proposal for a new GW2W namespace article: Guide to user conduct

The #BLM discussion above is getting pretty large, so I'm moving this thread to a new section: I've drafted up a proposal for a guide to user conduct, which ideally will be linked to via Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Practices and processes. The goal for this article is twofold: one, it gives newer users a feel for the environment here and reassures them that maintaining that environment is important to us; two, most disruptive users have the capacity to improve, but supporting them in that process is a huge amount of work that is unreasonable to ask of the average editor; this guide could help give regular users a tool for dealing with disruptive ones. —Idris 15:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

→ moved from User talk:Idris/Sandbox 2

While I agree with the intent behind such a proposal, I can see this being heavily misused and easily weaponized in the same manner as gw1:GWW:AGF and gw1:GWW:NPA were. Writing explicit policies such as this often cause people to get bogged down in the meta discussion around what is an acceptable way to say things, rather than the actual content of what was said. horrible | contribs 18:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've tried to make it clear in the intro that this guide is not intended as a policy -- do you think there's another way I could get that point across, or do you think the whole thing should be scrapped? I could add a tip to the list itself saying something along the lines of "remember to follow the spirit of the rules, not the letter"? —Idris 18:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The ping on the watchlist reminded me I completely forgot about this proposal, sorry Idris, got caught up in the rest of the goings on. I did read part of the proposal (I'm a terrible reader due to medical reasons and tiredness, sorry) when you first posted it and either way, I think it is a great initiative! The only problem I foresee is: the more copy you have, the less chance people are going to read it. So probably stick a TL;DR on top that comes down to "Don't be an ass, no sexism, racism, ableism, some-other-ism". I hope to get back to this once the wiki has calmed down a bit. ~ Sanna 19:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I tried to split the tips up into digestible sections, as well as keep the tips themselves short so they'll be easier to read/remember. You don't need to apologise for not managing to read all of it, though -- if you have issues that affect your reading then that just makes you the perfect person to give feedback on readability! :) I'll have a think on how to reword the TL;DR. —Idris 19:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The issue I have with such a proposal, i.e. be nice to people, is that it should be so blatantly obvious it doesn't need a policy at all. A long time ago the gw2w binned all of the policies.

Instead of a formal proposal, I think a lot of this could be reworked into one of/some of the Help namespace pages, or possibly a new Help page altogether (Help:Discussion?). -Chieftain Alex 20:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps my use of the word "proposal" was misleading, but it sounds like you and I are already on the same page, Alex. This not intended to be a policy; the idea is to give users some helpful tips on how not to have a bad time on the wiki. Sticking a tweaked version of it in the help namespace under Help:Discussion is an excellent idea! —Idris 20:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

As a thought, what about instead of a Guide, a Project page, to examine where the wiki is falling down in making a representative and welcoming experience for everyone and find solutions? Idris brought up our screenshots being primarily light-skinned characters, so perhaps the project could examine why that is and see if a change in the guidelines for the ideal screenshot makes more sense (as an example, maybe darker-colored weapons are best shot with light-skinned characters while lighter-colored weapons would be better shot with dark-skinned characters. Doesn't mean we need to automatically delete all screenshots that don't have black characters, but it can be a guideline moving forward). A discussion was just begun on Aid Worker Sya on how best to present her deadname in a way that is sensitive to transgender readers. A project page could centralize such discussions and also give editors somewhere to go if something isn't necessarily wrong but doesn't come off well. If such a project got up and running, we could tweet a link to the page along with a general message of support for those affected by systemic prejudices, both overt and unconscious. It would also mean it's not just laying down a single message of 'don't be racist guys' but making a hopefully meaningful ongoing effort going forward, which I think is more what you were looking for? - Tanetris (talk) 23:47, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

That's also a really good idea, and one I'll have a think about. I'm not sure I agree that this would be a replacement for a guide, though; I think it might be more effective to scatter multiple little indicators of our attitude in various places, so it really feels like this is how the wiki is and not this is what we wish the wiki was, you know? I'm undecided on what to do with this guide, though... I've been staring at it all evening trying to rewrite it as per feedback, and I keep thinking it just comes across as patronizing. I want our users to feel like their intelligence and intentions are respected... but I also think there are users who would benefit from a list of concrete tips to refer to when they're struggling to figure out what they're doing wrong. —Idris 20:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I think a Project Page for gathering ideas shows a commitment to inclusivity, acknowledgement of biases, and willingness to facilitate change (if change actually results from critiques). It would also localize all relevant conversations to one page for planning and discussion. While there is still the minor burdening of affected persons with explaining our own biases to us, I believe providing the page is a good first step. Idris, I do like your guide idea (and I've read a couple iterations), but I do think that there are good points being made that telling someone to be a good person doesn't necessarily encourage introspection. We're all protagonists in our own heads after all.--Rain Spell (talk) 18:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that's very true. Let's table the guide for now and focus on getting the project up and running. I've chucked a barebones article up in the project space; layout probably needs tweaking, but the basics are there. —Idris 19:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Mapping Tyria

Now that GW3 (Cantha) has been announced for next year, how about taking a little time to completely map out the Tyrian continent for exploration? No need for a storyline (beyond Jormag's finale), just territory and "population". For example, we "know" that their are at least 4 Charr "legions" (call them clans, states, etc), each of whom has their OWN "homeland". Define these areas and let them be explored. The same holds for the Elonian desert, islands, etc. Access TO all of these areas should be on a "discovery" basis--------no "serendipity" here. One such "starting point" is the (currently) inaccessible Asuran Gate in Brisban Wildlands---------(it can be seen, but not touched)-------------seemingly accessing the Woodlands Cascade region. The "quandary" here is simple----------How do WE get TO this gate?? Even with the 3rd GW game release, interest in completely seeing and exploring the territories we've been working in for the past 8 YEARS would be an intriguing denouement to this saga!! Naturally, only the MOST intrepid of explorers would dare venture into areas that proclaim "here be dragons".Undouble (talk) 14:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I can't say I understand what you're really asking for here. All geographical areas are described in detail as it is. SarielV 02:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)