Guild Wars 2 Wiki talk:Community portal/Archive 16

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Main page

It's time for the annual "let's delete/change/overhaul" the main page thread. I propose we review what's linked at the moment and consider whether (a) it's in the right section, and (b) whether we really need to link to it at all.

To try and stimulate some discussion, here's some suggestions I've pasted into discord. -Chieftain Alex 23:47, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I suggest bringing this up on reddit and the forums and collect ideas on what people want on a main page. I still believe this is not really a task for us wiki folks since hardly any of us use it anyway (at least that was the impression I got from the last discussion on the topic ages ago).

Generally speaking, less is more — less text, more pictures, more simplifications. Graphics would be sweet too.

talk 14:01, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I've had a go. -Chieftain Alex

15:29, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I much prefer the information-dense layout that previously existed. Perhaps I can recreate it on my talk page. Separ (talk) 00:58, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Separ. I like the previous layout better. The new one seems to have nearly as much information, just spatially spread out. I think it's trying too hard to look like the official news page. Less may be more, but sometimes that means fewer changes if what's already there is working. Just my thoughts. Depraved Ambience (talk) 23:24, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

So that I know you're both seeing the same layout that I'm seeing, here is what the new theme should look like at the moment on a relatively normal sized monitor: File:User Chieftain Alex main page new theme.jpg. (For reference the old theme was: File:User Chieftain Alex main page old theme.jpg)

In terms of why I've tried to redesign the main page:

We used the old layout for approximately 6 years since mid-2012. Before then we used tables similar to the gw1w.
I've gone for the flexbox approach this time instead of tables since this adapts better to the size of the screen, e.g. for a narrow mobile device it shows one column of 7 blocks instead of the 3x2+1 grid that is shown in my screenshot - previously it would crush the table as much as possible and then force the user to scroll left/right.
The old mainpage table looks nothing like any of the other tables on the wiki. Using traditional MW headers imo fits a lot better with the style of other pages.
Making things less compact should make it easier to click on links with a mobile device.

In terms of what content we show on the main page, that's always changing. Main Page/editcopy. -Chieftain Alex

10:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I used to use a single 1440 x 900 monitor to view the wiki and play the game alt-tabbing back and forth as required. Recently I installed a secondary screen (800 x 1920) for the browser items: wiki/GW2 Efficiency/Reddit and play the game on the big screen. In the new version on the large screen I see the July 5 entry at the bottom of the screen then have to scroll up an entire screen to see the rest; If I establish 70% zoom I can see the whole thing...the text is small, but readable. In the old version, I see the line containing the 'Map' header in the 'Exploring the World' section and have to scroll up about 2 inches to see the rest of the page (but can then see all of the 'Table of Contents' sections and only lose the tabs and the shortcut to my talk page) 90% zoom lets me see it all quite clearly. On the small screen I see about 1/3 of the new layout at a time and have to scroll a lot to find the entry I want. The reasonably static ToC sections of the front page (Basics, Gameplay, Gear & Equipment (Was Economy), Exploring the World, History & Lore, Wiki Community (except for the article count) allow quick jumps to sections of interest. I like being able to get to them and use them with a minimum of scrolling.

If your main intent is to redesign the interface for use on a cell phone/tablet then I understand why you chose to make the front page less information-dense. Does your site track user access as far as determining what device is being used to access it? Are most of them mobile devices? I can't believe any significant number of people play the game on a smartphone, and not too many play on a tablet, although . Is there a way to use style sheets to change the layout for PC and mobile access? As I said previously if the new layout is retained I will recreate the ToC entries on my talk page and use that as my shortcut to Guildwars2 Wiki, going only to the front page if I need to check recent news. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Separ (talk • contribs) at 05:02, 9 July 2018‎ (UTC).

I made a stylesheet with different media queries for several resolutions. What's yet missing is tablet/mobile layouts. Try this (Alex: this is the n-th time this is being mentioned...) https://gist.github.com/codemasher/c925d0211185eea64a6d04881bc841a5 --Smiley™ de: user | talk 09:41, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Changes have been made. Feel free to discuss: Main Page/editcopy --Smiley™ de: user | talk 21:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm a fan of the black transition we currently have below the featured article. Without it, the break looks visibly jarring. I also like having the three columns that the editcopy shows, rather than the two columns I currently get from the main page on my 1440 monitor, though I'm not sure if that's just due to the editcopy not being on the front page and somehow having more room. G R E E N E R 23:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

As the IP who commented on wiki for the first time, thinking something may have broken (see this section: Talk:Main_Page/editcopy#Main_page_broken.3F), I much prefer the old layout. Not sure if I can upload an image for you to see, but on my laptop Alex's first image would be significantly longer, as I only get two columns instead of three. Maybe it's just my choice of setup, but that means that all I can see on the main page by default is the top section down to the Event Timers / Server Reset line of the News & Updates section, and the Races / Professions / Biography of the Basics section. The Gameplay section has then wrapped onto the next "line" if you will. This version Main_Page/editcopy is slightly better (or at least, the version that was there when I wrote this - sorry, don't know how to link to a specific version :) ), in that it has three columns, but I can still really only see the top section without scrolling. So, overall, I still prefer the old layout. Thanks for your time :) 76.22.92.175 03:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree, the "featured article" thing is still far too large and i don't like it too. Someone just tried to resemble the GW2 website here, which i think is unnecessary. As for the rest and the displayed amount of columns: i've changed everything from fixed (px) to proportional sizes (em), so that the main page looks better on all devices - from tablets in portrait mode with only 600px width up to huge screens > 2560px - it may not be perfect for everyone but it should be for the majority. @Greener: i removed this thing because it steals more height and it's been used to cover up the pagination only (at least on the old forums and parts of the website). --Smiley™ de: user | talk 16:26, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Back again, possibly for the last time - the current version is a definite improvement. FA section is now back to a "reasonable" size (for want of a better term). Personally, still prefer the overall look of the table-like approach of the old one, being so similar to the GWW was, in my opinion, a good thing, not a bad thing, but if this wiki is definitely planning to move away from that style, then I believe the current version is a good compromise between the two. Thanks for all your time everyone :) 76.22.92.175 03:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The current revision of the edit copy is almost exactly the layout of the GWW main page, except without the style and there's one more box per row. Plus, it's responsive. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 04:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Main Page content

I've asked Reddit for input on what we should link from the Main Page. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8xgsbd/brainstorming_the_wikis_main_page/ If you guys want to pitch in there, you can too. Otherwise changing the Main Page/editcopy also works. -Chieftain Alex 22:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

*tumbleweed* --Smiley™ de: user | talk 07:41, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

There was a request for Guild missions to be included. I previewed a few things, but didn't like the spacing issues that it caused under PvE - it made the Gameplay section look way too long in narrower formats. It also didn't suit being beside Mounts, though I was tempted to put gliders there. As it stands, I like what we have atm. G R E E N E R 20:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Except there's exactly zero progress regarding the clutter, which was my initial complaint that got the whole redesign started in first place. Also, Main Page/editcopy. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 21:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

This version just seems choppy to me, and the (3+3+3+2) layout of the blocks means I'm scrolling down a lot for small pieces of info. I'm not a design expert, so I can't say what improvements should be made with confidence; I can just say what irks me. Perhaps combining some of the information in a different way so that two blocks are not 1/4 and 1/2 full? G R E E N E R 22:24, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the silly welcome bar steals about 10% of the overall height (plus the editcopy-notice) - if you remove that, you get almost exactly the same height as the gww main page - given you're viewing it in full width (which is currently about 1700px), that is 3 rows with 4 boxes each. The responsive manner of the layout makes it so that it shows less boxes in the width, the fewer the width of the browser's viewport is, so that everything stays readable. There's still a few adjustments to make to the responsiveness, aka mediaqueries for more screen/viewport sizes (currently it's just 2 or 3), like font size, which automagically scales the whole page. So feel free to open your browser's console (F12) and play with it until it looks good for you and tell us the results. Only feedback helps in the process. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 22:47, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Here's what it should look like https://imgur.com/a/LRIrYtS - i'm noot sure about the 3+3+3+2 view, that currently only appears in a very narrow range between 1600 - 1700 pixels, i only made it appear that way because people wanted the "more important" 3rd box in the topmost row. I don't like it, however. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 23:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm firmly with Greener on this one; there was a reason i didn't copy over all of the changes. I don't think removing the welcome message is an option, and if we go for 11 boxes then it increases the page length + the boxes end up pretty sparse. I think the header pattern was a test? -Chieftain Alex

05:59, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

What exactly was the reason? Which rule exactly says that the main page should be viewable without scrolling and which viewport size is defined there? The concept of scrolling is as old as computers, and i'm not here to argue about it with a handful people who are too lazy to do so (who are probaly also the least affected usergroup). The height difference between the current main page and the editcopy is +/-120px, while one is an ugly cluttered mess and the other has plenty of room for even more content. You did not come up with a screenshot yet of how it looks for you, nor did you try to change anything about it. My revision of the editcopy has been untouched since. Also, my further suggestions to invite the community over here for discussion via the sitenotice, as well as a dismissable welcome banner have been widely ignored. That's not how consent works. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 08:48, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the current editcopy version. The pattern used in the header section is too dark for the blue link and has too high of a contrast between it and the white box/text below. Maybe reduce the opacity or find a lighter pattern? The pictures in the first box also aren't aligned properly (less space on the right and excess space on the left), but that's probably an issue of the pictures used. Maybe have them align center? The 2nd box (News & updates) has weird spacing, or should I say, not enough. Long text, such as the current one (Festival of the Four Winds Begins Next Week!) is straight up almost hitting the border, so maybe have a look at increasing the width of the box? I like the colored lines and header text; they're not too strong or too faint, and they match the design of the wiki at the moment, so I approve of that.

I'm not going to list the semi-empty boxes as an issue, because that's not what this discussion is about (at the moment), but I do have trouble with how... boxy everything looks. I know you tried simulating some of the design from the GWW, but I just don't think it works here. The borders of the boxes create awkward space when looking at the central ones (for example, PvE, Competitive and Gear and equipment could be one long box, instead of 3?) and I'm just not a fan of how constricting everything looks, as opposed to the current setup we have. I do appreciate that everything is aligned with one another, something that is amiss with the current version (history/lore and the community are mostly to blame for this). I also don't think getting rid of the "welcome notice" would be a good thing; it's become a staple of the wiki and I'd like to see it remain. If your design suffers from it, I think the design should change, not suggest a removal of the notice, but then again, that's my opinion and maybe others have a problem with the notice as well.

So, to summarize. I'd remove the pattern on the header, or reduce its opacity significantly. Reduce the amount of 'boxes' and maybe even attempt a version without them altogether? Hopefully the spacing fixes itself with those tweaks. Thanks for the work you've put into this. Hopefully my criticism is constructive. —Ventriloquist 09:38, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback! Inc made several different images for the header backgrounds per my request - you can browse them in the edit history starting from here - i personally prefer the current dark version because it's the best readable - the lighter (or partial) backgrounds turned out problematic for the readability of the contained text (that doesn't mean they do look bad). Feel free to come up with your own samples - recommended size ~700x100.

I personally don't care about the main page banner as i can simply put a .mainpage-banner{display:none;} in my Stylebot rules (ur user style even). However, i've got reports from people with smaller screens, where this banner breaks to 2 lines and steals way more space than acceptable for zero productive use (it's currently completely hidden on small screens via mediaquery). That's why i say make it dismissable like the sitenotice - it wouldn't hurt anyone that way. If you like and care about it, just don't dismiss it then, while others don't have to suffer from it. Aside of that, the image with the "Guild Wars 2" text looks ugly, misplaced and pixel-y.

As for the boxes and their amount: i think the borders calm down the layout (reminder that you had a frickin' table before). I've added one more row to fill up the layout so that it always displays an even amount of boxes depending on available width: (2x6,) 3x4, 4x3, 6x2, 12x1 - missing boxes make it look messy, just like the current 8-box layout which only looks good at 2x4 or 4x2 but however is still cluttered because of too much content per box and missing box-y-ness that separates the content. I'm reluctant to making more of them double-size as it would only break the layout again and double-boxes in mid-layout with switching positions would probably look weird anyway. I wanted the featured article/conten box to be special and made an exception for it - i agree that it could use some changes still. Also, i'm pretty sure the game has to offer way more things the average wiki visitor would want to browse that could be put in this amount of boxes (or probably even more...). The content of the current editpage boxes could be sorted (i just did a rough draft) and more things can be added. I agree that the "News & Updates" box looks weird, but so does it on the current main page and it could be fixed with a bit more padding on the right side to force the text break to the next line - which in turn would make the box higher... (hint: just use shorter headlines).

btw. i've added several screens from smaller devices to the collection of the "intended layout looks" over here https://imgur.com/a/LRIrYtS --Smiley™ de: user | talk 13:20, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Optional 2-factor authentication for the wikis

A couple years ago i already made a request for adding a 2FA login extension to the wikis, so that users - especially the ones with widget, sysop and bureaucrat rights - could opt-in for additional account security. That request was mostly ignored and it was said that "we don't need that here". Ok. Although the risk may be low for the wikis, we know 2 things for sure:

1. there are databases with stolen username/password combinations available on the internet (yes, yours is in there too!) and

2. javascript is the root of all evil.

Now combine these two, add widget or syspop rights and BOOM, you could install your own bitcoin miner on the wiki without people knowing about it. Or any other kind of malicious javascript, like... imagine a script that downloads a porgram which is able to steal the credentials for your game account... all of this exists.

Maybe i'm paranoid. But maybe i just know how simple such things could be done. So, all i'd like to see is the extension OATHAuth or similar being installed on the GW2 wikis, and maybe even GWW, so that people could use it.

Since it's completely optional, it doesn't take away anything from anyone - ok, i'd go that far and would require it for sysop, widget and bcrat accounts. The only downside would be if a user who opted in for it and lost their authenticator would need to be manually opted out - a thing that shouldn't happen *that* often and may be managable. Oh, and once more for those in the back: i'm not talking about securing your "private" data on the wiki. I'm talking about how your account could be abused with already stolen credentials.

--Smiley™ de: user | talk 18:43, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't other sysops, bcrats, etc be able to see such a change and raise a red flag? I feel like if something like this is going to get pushed, then you'd need to also consider user pages with custom js. Sure that may be just one user, but the same thing could be run. And then what if that gets duplicated on a bunch of other accounts?

I mean if it's an easy thing to add for the wiki and it's opt-in I don't mind much, but if it's just to get an even more annoying login (and possibly user creation) then no. I also don't think forcing anyone of a specific role to have 2FA would be a good idea. It could be nice to have the option to have it, but forcing it is silly imo. -Darqam 18:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Of course others could see that an edit has been made - but would you be able to identify if that external javascript is a malicious one? (even if it's only there for a short duration - the damage is done) --Smiley™ de: user | talk 18:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I have no issue with adding security to my account. What I'm unfamiliar with is the additional overhead this addon may bring: enabling, maintaining, and fixing when something inevitably goes awry. G R E E N E R 17:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Enabling is a standard process which could be done with the next wiki/server maintenance. The point of fixing (aka. unlocking someone who lost their authenticator and all backup codes) is a manual process which would require someone on server side - at least for the Extension i linked - maybe there are others which may allow unlocking users from the admin panel so that noone at Anet would be required. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 17:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's say a wiki contributor has a issue with the 2FA. They would then need to contact either an Anet rep or a wiki admin. How would we properly verify who they are? We may not be able to go off of Check User info as they're likely on a different IP (where they would have encountered their problem), and that log is scrubbed rather frequently. G R E E N E R 00:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

They *should* have enough backup codes to unlock themselves in first place. So if someone really needs to be unlocked manually, they'd best need to contact you personally through a trusted channel, like e.g. discord or so. But again - this would only be necessary for accounts with extended rights mentioned above, as these are able to do damage - so the affected user group is very limited and it should be possible to get in touch with them. --Smiley™ de: user | talk 01:09, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Guild Chat transcript proof of concept

As per previous discussions, I present the following:

Guild Chat - Episode 65 (full transcript and images)
Guild Chat - Episode 60 (partially transcribed by ChieftainAlex and linked by him above)

Episode 65 does not yet have a proper infobox or introduction, but have a look over the content and see what you think. I invite comments. Due to the amount of discussion, transcribing a single episode takes several hours.

Also, there is not yet a disclaimer that it's not an official transcript. Would anyone like to suggest wording for this? -- Dashface 17:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

You've pretty much nailed the layout with #65, imo. The screenshots are a nice touch. Nice work, thank you for doing this! I reckon the intro box should be turned into a template; we can then stick the disclaimer into said template so future transcribers don't have to faff about with remembering to add one. Is it necessary to have an "external links" section? I think in this case, it might be more appropriate to simply link the official video somewhere in the intro box instead. —Idris

19:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Adding links to my dye web-app?

Hello. A while ago, I've programmed a web-app about dyes, and I think it'd be useful for many players: https://kulinda.github.io/dyes/

I'd like to see a link added to the Template:Dye infobox (or Template:Default item parameter, not sure which fits better), but I figured I'd ask for consensus before spamming widespread links to my stuff. Direct linking of dyes is possible by name, e.g. https://kulinda.github.io/dyes/#dye/Citrus_Breeze

I will never monetize the site (no ads, no donation links etc), nor will I spy on users (the only data collected are github's server logs, which I can't even see). The source code is also on github, and in the spirit of a collaborative wiki, I'm open to pull requests.

Opinions? Kulinda (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Could you further elaborate what exactly your app does? A quick look at the link tells me that it shows appearance of dyes on armor and similar dyes, which does seem useful. —Ventriloquist 17:48, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

the main feature seems to be showing dyes with similar colours. -Chieftain Alex

17:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

The goal for the tool is basically "visualize all the information the API provides", so the features ended up as listing, searching and correlating dyes. I guess the main use case is to help people find the best dyes for their characters, by making hidden stats like contrast visible, by suggesting similar dyes (which might fit better and/or be cheaper), by suggesting dyes that go well together (via the color wheel), or by browsing/searching in some ways the wiki can't provide.

When linked from a dye page, the main use case is indeed to provide alternative and matching dyes, which would be incredibly difficult to implement inside the wiki. Kulinda (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I support the idea. I doubt dye articles have a lot of traffic, but having such information in the infobox could only help the folks looking for similar dyes or other features. It might even completely eliminate the occasional "is there a similar dye to this" comment we get on dye articles. —Ventriloquist 19:07, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Seconded. Adding this resource would pose a vast improvement to our current dye articles. Very nice site, by the way — the mount license calculator is incredibly nifty. I appreciate your work! talk 13:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Wait. Does that mean you solved that nasty color shift/post processing problem that bugged us for ages and noone had a real idea what was going on? I mean, this one: https://github.com/arenanet/api-cdi/issues/65 and https://github.com/arenanet/api-cdi/pull/132 --Smiley™ de: user | talk 16:34, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I've added a link to your tool from Template:Default item parameter. Currently the link spans two lines, which is a bit ugly. If you want to rename the link, please feel free to do so. -Chieftain Alex

18:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@smiley: The colors I'm getting look right, and they precisely match the rgb values from the API. Our guild emblem looks pretty close to the original, but I haven't been able to validate actual armors because I don't have access to raw armor textures.

What I'm doing is explained in the FAQ in my webapp, and there's always the source code: matrix generation, rendering. If you see something wrong with that, or have further questions, my talk page is always open.

@Chieftain Alex: oh, thanks! The css rule for div.infobox dd has width: 125px, even though there's room for ~145px. Do you know if that's a bug or a deliberate design decision? If the former, we could fix the css and it'll fit on one line.

In the meantime, I've shortened it, and I've also fixed it to show up for non-tradeable dyes like Stream Dye and link correctly for multi-word dyes like Crimson Lion Dye. Thanks again! Kulinda (talk) 22:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Quick links

So the Quick links article is looking pretty dated. Ideas for changes in content/appearance? (e.g. add a list of the available mounts) -Chieftain Alex 17:19, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

For the appearance we could just make it like an extension to the Main Page. (3 columns) -Chieftain Alex

17:42, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Hm, lacks colours and fancy icons, in my opinion. Think we could separate the armour galleries from the profession classes and group them with the weapons (and add Bltc weapon gallery to the list). Other than that, maybe a link to the AR page and update the raid section and make them all a different colour.

talk 17:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree.

The other thing i wanted to ask "does anyone actually use it?" -Chieftain Alex

18:33, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Not even once. :D

talk 18:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Same. Starting with equipment, everything under it looks plain, grey, and too-texty. —Ventriloquist 20:12, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Apart from the following, everything else is a repeat of something we already link on the Main Page: (1) professions and their reference guides, (2) crafting disciplines, (3) armor/weapon galleries. The rest we have pretty well covered - I'm not convinced the individual raids/dungeons need listing. I think it should be possible to make something pretty from my 3 outlined points. -Chieftain Alex

23:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I've made some changes. -Chieftain Alex

19:56, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Needs links to the skill pages for each of the elite specializations. I personally don't like that the skills were moved off of pages like "List of thief skills" but the elite specs will need to be on the quick links article if it stays that way. --— Cronos 09:26, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Game Updates nav

Would anybody mind if I updated the navigation panel on the top right corner of the game updates to be nicer looking? I'd basically like to copy what the Spanish wiki is curently using. - Do_odleplex 02:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Do you mean by changing the {{STDT}} type for the main Game updates page (Game updates vs. es:Actualizaciones del juego) or the information on the month-by-month update page (Game updates/June 2018 vs. es:Actualizaciones del juego/junio 2017)? G R E E N E R 04:25, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Both. It looks prettier and it makes it easier to navigate from month to month imo. It would also remove all the game update monthly overviews from being Orphaned too. - Do_odleplex 04:31, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The month-to-month nav would be nice, though it may leave a red-link in the current month for the upcoming one. If no one else has an opinion, do what Alex does: a scream test. No, not an "ice cream test". G R E E N E R 04:43, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh yeah, forgot about the upcoming month, but that's not too terrible since it would be eliminating a ton of red links from talk pages. And what's a scream test? I already have ice cream. - Do_odleplex 04:51, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to circle back here. If people currently seem indifferent to the change, then be bold and change the navs. If it causes an actual problem, you'll hear the screaming ; ). G R E E N E R 04:49, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I removed the talkpage links since they're usually dead ends, and added a margin to make them slightly prettier. I'm not fussed about colours.

~~Do we want a link the next/previous month?~~ edit: I've now changed Game updates/June 2018 and Game updates as an example. -Chieftain Alex

20:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, can we just use a template for all of the Game update overview pages, i.e. the whole content of Game updates/June 2018 generated by one template. -Chieftain Alex

20:24, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

But, that will ruin my routine of how I make those pages. I don't think I could adapt! /s G R E E N E R 20:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Thank you Alex for doing pretty much everything except the colours. I'll have my bot sweep through rest of the page updates. <3 - Do_odleplex 00:29, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Extracting Account Keybinds

Is there any way to get a printable copy of my accounts key binds? I am looking for hardcopy backup in case I need to reinstall the game at some point. Separ (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that the API will be of help. Screen captures are the only way that I can think of atm. G R E E N E R 15:57, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Aren't keybinds stored server-side? ❄The F. Prince❄ (talk) 19:57, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Healing Formulas

All Healing skills in the game appear to follow the formula Healing = (Base Heal) + Level^2 * (Level Scaling Factor) + (Healing Power) * (Healing Power Coefficient)

You can find these values in the ArcDPS skilldefs file that deltaconnected provides on his site, or they can be calculated by recording tooltip values for a skill at different levels (while at 0 Healing Power) and then combining them:

(Level Scaling Factor) ~= ((Tooltip Healing Value)_A - (Tooltip Healing Value)_B) / (Level_A^2 - Level_B^2)

Where A and B denote different levels. Plugging the calculated Level Scaling Factor back into the main equation will then yield the Base Heal.

Example of calculating the values: Withdraw has a tooltip healing value of 4766 at level 80, and a tooltip healing value of 818 at level 31. Plugging those values into the equation yields: (4766 - 818) / (80^2 - 31^2) = 0.725868726 ~= 0.726 Plugging that value back into the main equation yields 4766 - 80^2 * 0.726 = 119.6 ~= 120

Some of the Base Heal and Level Scaling Factor numbers have already been added to their respective skill's notes sections. There are currently two different formats used for displaying this information:

The base healing done by this skill is equal to (Base Heal) + Level^2 * (Level Scaling Factor).

The healing done by this skill is equal to (Base Heal) + Level^2 * (Level Scaling Factor) + Healing Power * (Healing Power Coefficient).

The base healing format is easier to maintain in the event that a Healing Power Coefficient changes (no redundant information on page/only have to remember to edit one value). But the full healing formula doesn't obfuscate the contribution from Healing Power (more information is better). Either way we will need to pick a format.

Outside of updating every skill that provides healing's page, other pages that potentially could be updated include the Healing, and Template:Skill_fact pages.

DarkFire (talk) 20:54, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Basically you're asking us to depend on deltaConnected's skilldefs being correct? -Chieftain Alex

21:25, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

No.

I gave a way to calculate it without using the skilldefs file, as well as pointing out that the skilldefs file also contains the information.

From the values I calculated (all thief healing skills), the only value that didn't explicitly match the skilldefs file was the Base Heal value of Withdraw (and the correct base heal value was present just mislabeled).

DarkFire (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Copy gamelinks to clipboard when you click them?

I created a account just so I could implement this for myself. I edited my common.js with

 jQuery(".gamelink").on("click", function(){
   document.execCommand("copy")
 });

Thought that perhaps more people would appreciate the convenience.

For extra "pop" one could add jQuery UI to the site and use the tooltip function to display a small alert indicating that the text has been copied to the clipboard.

--RainForDays (talk) 11:19, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

That's not a terrible idea, thanks for the suggestion.

Browsers have moved on quite a bit since 2013 when the first version of Widget:Game link was written - at this time you couldn't always access the clipboard in every browser, and since the only universal option were flash plugin hacks, we didn't implement copy on click functionality. I have added the one line you've suggested to the widget, and therefore you can now copy text from a chatlink without doing CTRL+C.

Although I considered adding a popup notification (+ discussed it on discord), it looks really ugly without fadeIn/fadeOut - and to use those we'd need jquery, but that would involve waiting for the rest of the page to load (jquery is one of the last to load modules on any page). I like pages to load fully + fast so we'll go with this compromise for the moment. -Chieftain Alex

17:50, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

You certainly shouldn't need jQuery for a fade, you can either use setInterval() or CSS animations to animate it yourself. It's a bit more work, but it can be done.

21:58, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Where are all the FL players at from the USA????

Hey everyone I am a new player to this game. I love mmorpg games. I do wonder though where are players from Florida at in the USA??? If you are from Florida would like to start a Florida Guild please respond to my message. We can do meetups at public places to get to know each other before establishing further arrangements. Lets game and build a state community of Guild of wars2 players!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Guardianofrespect (talk) at 16:12, September 26, 2018‎ (UTC).

Hi there. I think you'll have more luck finding other players in your region on the guild recruitment subreddit and/or the official forums. The wiki and its community portal centers more around the documentation of the game, rather than providing a social networking platform.

talk 16:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Potential Acquisition Template?

Can we make a acquisition template that uses the {{gathered from}}, {{vendor list}}, {{dropped by}}, and {{contained in}} templates (along with some new code) to automatically put down a section header with the table if it can be acquired a certain way, and doesn't put any text if it's not acquired from that way. For example, I have a testing one at User:Trevor95251/Template:Acquisition template test, and while it doesn't add headers I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I could do that. Not only would this save time while editing, but it could also save time in the future as if an item gains another acquisition source it would automatically update as long it had the proper property. ~~Trevor95251 15:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Notifications - (10^n) th edit

Firstly congratulations to User:Incarnazeus for being the first user to report the existence of the automated notification for reaching an order of 10 contributions.

This has highlighted the existence of the system messages which we weren't previously aware of - at the moment the messages are pretty bland. Here's the list: list.

It might be fun if we customise the messages a bit. Here's some suggestions from Discord:

Suggestion maker	Edit count	Message
F Prince	1	Ahai outlander, {{GENDER:$2\|You}} just made {{GENDER:$2\|your}} first edit; thank {{GENDER:$2\|you}}, and welcome!
F Prince	1	{{GENDER:$2\|You}} just made {{GENDER:$2\|your}} first edit; wow, that's quality edit, take a look!
Konig	1	{{GENDER:$2\|You}} just made {{GENDER:$2\|your}} first edit; for Zhaitan!
F Prince	1	Commander, {{GENDER:$2\|you}} just made {{GENDER:$2\|your}} first edit; thank {{GENDER:$2\|you}}, and welcome!
F Prince	1,000,000	{{GENDER:$2\|You}} just made {{GENDER:$2\|your}} millionth edit; nerf please.

Evidently the discord suggestions are mostly troll suggestions that brand-new users may not get the references to, so I'm going to ignore them :P -Chieftain Alex 11:03, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

As mentioned on the discord, I think we should go from happy-go-lucky friendly to seasoned and bitter notifications. On a more serious note, messages in the lower numbers should be especially friendly and encouraging. I'd suggest adding something along the lines of "We hope to see you around!" or "We are looking forward to seeing you around more often" or "With your help we can make the wiki a great resource for the general playerbase" or "We appreciate the time you invest in editing the wiki; please know that you are a valuable individual and that your work matters."

There's usually a reason beyond having time/boredom that leads to an individual editing the wiki, so we should keep that in mind and act appropriately on it. Praise, along with gratitude, goes a long way.

talk 11:15, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I missed this section, and the Discord discussion. I'll see if I can write up some ideas tomorrow. G R E E N E R 06:34, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Halloween

I'd like to see some suggestions for a halloween theme for the wiki. We would need:

A logo for File:Logo.png
A header for File:Skin header (Path of Fire).png
A footer (optional) for File:Skin footer.png
Any other ideas would be appreciated, e.g. could make links orange or something.

-Chieftain Alex 06:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

This is super last minute as usual. :D

Anyhow, I'll think about it some more later (I need to head out now), but meanwhile, here's what the french wiki has. Maybe we can ask Irule if we can steal the footer?

talk 09:39, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Hey, this isn't last minute, the ingame events are always stupidly early for a one day RL event. -Chieftain Alex

17:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Just wanted to say I think it looks great, love some Halloween spirit. ~~Trevor95251 18:14, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Standalone, Sets - United

Long story short, I'd like to get rid of the standalone weapon pages in favor of listing ALL of the weapons/skins/etc on *one* page. It's putting all the information in one place instead of scattered all over the place and would make it much easier for your average player to know all shiny things that came from X thing. I have two mockup pages done already: User:Doodleplex/Sandbox 7 and User:Doodleplex/Sandbox 3(not linking cause might delete later...less cleanup). I'm curious to know what other people think. - Do_odleplex 23:17, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I propose: (1) we do it by campaign, (2) and we do not set the "set" parameter for any of them - use categories instead if you must. -Chieftain Alex

13:43, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the set parameter from a bunch of annoying Heart of Thorns ones -with two weapons in each of three sets- and deleted the set pages. I don't mind the current layout of List of standalone weapons. -Chieftain Alex

14:00, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree removing set in the infobox, since it sort of contradicts the point of being a unique/not set weapon. If by campaign you mean by how I set it up on Sandbox 3, then yay, if not, please explain. - Do_odleplex 15:00, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Doodle, I don't like the combination of tables and galleries on a long page, repeating sections of tables+galleries. Pick one, not both. -Chieftain Alex

15:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Galleries it is then. Picture's worth more anyway. - Do_odleplex 15:26, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Removing Sensitive & Public-Facing Data from Anet Employee Pages

Due to the recent Reddit witch hunt, which so far seems to have resulted in Chris Cleary deleting his reddit account, and past occurences (JP debacle), I would like to propose to remove all kinds of public-facing data from ArenaNet staff member pages. The wiki as a neutral place should not provide the means for an angry mob to look up vital information such as twitter, reddit and/or other social media accounts. Yes, social media accounts are mostly publicly accessible, but we should neither "serve it on a silver platter" nor enable people. Similarly, we need to ask ourselves whether it is morally acceptable to add profile pictures taken from streams or other sites to employee pages. Yes, taken from streams those screencaps would technically count as ArenaNet property, but without explicit permission of the staff members in question, we should not have these images on their pages, else it counts as violation of privacy. Thoughts? talk 20:12, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I support it. I'd hate to see the wiki became a way for (angry) users to track down developers' social media accounts. —Ventriloquist 20:23, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Assuming you're including LinkedIn on here, agreed b/c that data's just too close for comfort. -Chieftain Alex

20:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I support it as well. Some might argue, that angry users can track down developer/employee social media accounts even if they are not on the wiki, but removing them here makes it A) harder to get and B) avoids any kind of backlash the wiki might get for providing the info. As for images on the employee pages, at the moment i would generally remove them (if the image wasn't explicitly added/provided by the employee) and maybe create a form were employees can grant us the rights to use a picture/provide one them self. Same idea could be applied to the social media accounts. Almdudler (talk) 20:51, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good, Alm. And yeah, LinkedIn URLs should be removed as well. If there's no dissenting voices, I'll give the employee formatting style sheet a look and go through staff pages tomorrow.

talk 21:00, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Just tell me what exactly you want removed/deleted and I can crawl through them with a bot (assuming there's quite a few staff pages) -Chieftain Alex

21:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I support Inc's proposal as well; I've always been a bit hesitant listing LinkedIn information on devs' wiki pages for this very reason, and the pages are easily reachable from Google if someone needs to update relevant job title info. --Kossage (talk) 21:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I have no object, just a question: what if the staffer themselves put it on their own page? - Do_odleplex 22:27, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I would say in all cases, curate the information (i.e. look at the history) to see if the staff member appears comfortable with what's present. G R E E N E R 00:38, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) This is now done. The only thing left for discussion is whether we should be removing images as well. 80% looked fairly "private" to me. talk 08:36, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Although the removal of the links do make these pages less useful, I can understand the purpose of this. However, I object to the removal of screencaps of official videos. These are neither private nor sensitive, and they were provided while these employees represented the company in an official capacity. They also provide no benefit to witch-hunters. I agree that some review could be done on the licensing of existing images; some are listed as "Public Domain" when they are unlikely to truly be so. However, I would encourage this review to be done carefully without a guilty-unless-proven innocent approach. For example, the image of Stéphane appears to be a personal photo and not one provided by ArenaNet, but on closer investigation it was uploaded by Stéphane himself. Likewise, the image of Jon Peters doesn't have any obvious source, but a little research reveals that this is from the official Guild Wars 2 pre-launch blog. While some staff images may have been sourced inappropriately, many were not. -- Dashface

13:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Hey, can we slow our roll on this stuff? I didn't even see this topic until I got into the office this morning and already people are changing formatting guides and talking about bot edits. This is a major change to the way we document something, and it should not be done in a hurry. - Felix Omni 13:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

to be fair it was just my suggestion to use a bot and it wasn't followed up. -Chieftain Alex

18:08, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I object strongly to all of these changes (not least of which how quickly it was pushed through.) The wiki is not beholden to angry reddit mobs any more than ArenaNet itself is, and we should not be preemptively removing content based on speculation of what Joe Theoretical Angry Gamer could do with it. Many of the blogs and social medias Inc removed have been displayed for nearly a decade with no apparent issues. We don't preemptively protect articles to prevent vandalism, we only do it if they're actively being targeted (as we did with the "JP debacle," which took all of 10 minutes). Why would we remove information that's of real interest to users with zero evidence that it's somehow being misused? Frankly, I find it distasteful and entirely counter to our community values that some of you distrust our own user base to this extent. If we are to document ArenaNet employees at all, then it's entirely valid and valuable to provide additional background and context about them via their own chosen, personally curated platforms- which, by the way, are also often cited sources of lore and trivia on the wiki. Should we go through all our articles and delete every cited dev tweet and post as well? Of course not.

Now, I do think it's important that we accommodate ArenaNet employees and former employees if they personally request we remove their information, as several have done with their displayed photos recently. Stephane has communicated that to them, and they have plenty of ways of contact us if they want to. For anything beyond that, I do not see a need. - Felix Omni 19:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The wiki is here to document the game, not arenanet's staffers, so I don't think its a big deal imo. Employees choosing to post on their own personal LinkedIn pages doesn't qualify for reposting without their permission. Sure, if they've added links to their own pages, leave them, but I wholeheartedly agree with the early consensus reached last night, their backgrounds don't really have a place here.

Sure, angry man can track them down outside of the wiki, but that's not our problem if they know how to google. -Chieftain Alex

20:24, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

LinkedIn is a joke and nobody uses it except tech recruiters. I'm talking about the twitter links, reddit users, personal blogs. Stuff the devs actually use, which provides actual and ongoing insight into both the creators and the game itself. And again, I don't care what imaginary angry man does. It's not relevant to what content we do or do not display. - Felix Omni 20:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Twitter links and links to personal, not-game-related, blogs is something that should absolutely go. When developers put 'opinions expressed here are mine and do not reflect the views of my employer' in their bios, that's a sign that maybe we shouldn't link to that on their wiki, game-related, article.

"...I don't care what imaginary angry man does. It's not relevant to what content we do or do not display." Since an 'imaginary' person won't convince you, how about a real one? When the whole JP scandal happened, a lot of people were not aware of who she even was. Then other users would give them the wiki link, so they could see for themselves who she was exactly, and what work she did. Unsurprisingly, the link to her Twitter was right there. Did the majority of the tweets aimed at her come through the wiki? Of course not. But did it make the process easier? Absolutely.

Ultimately, we're discussing the removal of non-wiki-or-game-related content here. How does a link to a dev's LinkedIn benefit the wiki, or the dev's article? Sure, you have a more in-depth look into their work history, but is that something the wiki should foster? I don't believe so. We're not removing this information from the web, we're just removing it from an article about the dev on a wiki they worked on, which is not something I see as a bad thing. —Ventriloquist 13:01, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

JP's twitter handle was visible here for all of 3 hours. We didn't even have an article on her until the day after the tweets happened. You really think the wiki was a significant part of that? If anything, the JP situation shows that ArenaNet employees do represent the company and the game on social media, even if their bio includes a little disclaimer.

I'm seeing LinkedIn specifically come up a lot here. I'll concede that LinkedIn profiles are not useful information to include in articles, primarily because they are not useful information at all. We could remove those, along with any listed non-ArenaNet job history for employee articles, and I wouldn't object. - Felix Omni 14:29, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

And why was it up for such a short time? The revision literally states what has been said, it "only serves as an avenue for continued drama". Devs "represent" the game in the sense that they feature it on their dash, but their views do not reflect the job they work for as such. Why should we link to that? That's my main concern - putting LinkedIn aside, as you agreed - what benefit does linking to their Twitter have? You can argue that they post some lore tidbits here and there, as Peter Fries used to do, but it's far and few. Of the other links, I'd support leaving Reddit in, especially if it's a GW2-only account. —Ventriloquist 15:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

In that case one editor made a judgment call to remove it based on real and evident harassment toward the dev, and I think that was fine. But since the RMT fracas that spurred these proposed changes is already over, I'm glad this discussion can move away from knee jerk reactions and toward "what is actually useful for readers?" Reddit usernames and maybe official forum profiles (I think we've listed those on a few employee articles) are definitely useful for tracking dev responses that are specifically relevant to the game. I still would prefer to keep social media links (but not linkedin) because I think there's real value both in the occasional nuggets of game-related content they post, but also in providing a way to engage postively with devs. - Felix Omni 15:42, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) If we're talking about 'wiki-usefulness', what is the reason for including staffers previous jobs? It's not related to the wiki nor game at all — the same reason we don't want to include links to their social media platforms profiles. ❄The F. Prince❄ (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

I find the work history can be interesting if a dev was previously an intern and was then promoted to an actual dev/artist or some-such. It's also interesting to see if a dev has previously worked on other games or if a voice actor is particularly famous. I can see an argument for not including non-ANET history, but then there's weird blank spots. I do question on artist pages if linking to their deviant art/artspace/whatever page falls under the "too personal" umbrella? Because again, those are interesting and nice to have easy access to. --Rain Spell (talk) 01:04, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I think linking at least Art station should stay, as even ArenaNet themselves posted some links in the big PoF-related concept art article or what that was. ~Sime Talk 01:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree that art blogs should stay, I randomly clicked on one artist's blog the other day and found some GW2 cinematic concepts and gifs that I'd never seen before. That's definitely relevant to the game. As far as job history, I think showing what an employee's roles at ArenaNet have been is pretty uncontroversial and should be retained. Where they went to school and what they worked on before and after ArenaNet, maybe less so. For voice actors we can link to their Behind The Voice or IMDB pages rather than giving a history of their work here. - Felix Omni 15:42, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Summarizing our conversation, feel free to edit this list when decisions are made. Keep discussing below:

We have valid reason to limit access to or remove certain information from employee pages. We're a game wiki, not an internal business database. We have no good reason to store large amounts of personal data on non-public figures.
Some employees contribute certain bits of information themselves and that's fine. The issue arises when contributors go full on-stalker and find personal pages such as employee's personal non-work twitter or facebook, etc. Even if the contributor means well, this easy access to someone who is NOT a public figure is questionable and can very quickly turn to DOXing if someone is nasty enough.
To fix this we want to do the following:
Update guidelines, forms, and templates for the ANET dev pages. These guidelines should outline what pages and information are "expected" as a hazard of the work place and what pages and information is too personal.
- Artists with public facing Deviant Art/Art Station pages are fine. Public facing blogs should be fine. (I'm guessing exceptions made where necessary, if ever.)
- Voice Actors should link to their IMDB pages, etc.
- Developers and similar may have a work portfolio website. Unsure if this should be linked.
- Images are ok if taken from an official GW2 stream or if submitted by the Dev themselves. Use a place-holder otherwise.
General Work history while employed with ANET is acceptable. Before and after is a bit stalker-y, but in certain cases may have relevance. (easter eggs, references, etc.) Use discretion.
It was brought up that a custom form be created for Anet devs where they can volunteer certain bits of information themselves. (i.e. pictures.) Accessibility issues?
On the subject of information removal, the jury is still out.

--Rain Spell (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

"Developers and similar may have a work portfolio website. Unsure if this should be linked." - going to vote no on linking to that one. -Chieftain Alex

11:00, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

If we're talking about like, a front end developer's list of previous clients' websites then no, we don't need that. For a game designer or gameplay programmer... maybe? I'm not really sure what that would look like. I think we could judge it on a case by case basis if it ever came up. - Felix Omni 14:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking in the cases where a designer or programmer may have made their own "business card" website. I don't think it would be necessary or useful to list client websites.--Rain Spell (talk) 01:16, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Do you have any examples of those handy? - Felix Omni 15:42, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Now that I'm looking I can't find any. I've seen them a few times on reddit where a programmer or web developer has their own professional website. I think that's a reasonable equivalent to an artist's artspace, etc. I'm really just throwing it out there because we're trying to set new guidelines, and so we can get all our bases covered. --Rain Spell (talk) 20:42, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Wow. As just a fan of the game, and its creators, I am saddened by the proposed removals of information. It seems such a pessimistic view of the playerbase and users of the Wiki. It seems to me, anyway, if someone wanted to harass an employee, there are plenty of ways to do so without using the Wiki. Seems unfair to punish the majority just because someone _might_ use the Wiki unresponsibly. I am especially disappointed to hear pictures were/are to be removed. I think many enjoy putting a face to forum posts, etc. Just my two cents. Inculpatus cedo (talk) 17:14, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Removal of pictures is only related to pictures obtained from sources other than official ArenaNet videos/blog posts. ❄The F. Prince❄ (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

New guideline draft

Okay, after letting this percolate for a couple of weeks I've considered the above discussion and written a revised draft of the employee formatting guideline, which can be found here. Please offer any feedback here on the community portal. - Felix Omni 18:21, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it's pretty good. Do we want a section in the infobox that says if they're currently employed by anet? A simple yes/no question answer? Just so you don't have to scroll through to the work history.--Rain Spell (talk) 08:17, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Well upon checking, it turns out that the infobox does have a former parameter, which if set will auto-categorize the employee in Category:Former employees. However it's not actually displayed in the infobox, or in the template usage section for that matter. We can change that pretty easily. - Felix Omni 14:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think this is a nice compromise. Seems to show the most important information, and leaves room for additional content. —Ventriloquist 22:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay, it's been a month with no objections and given a couple of (well-intentioned) contributions today conflict with the draft I'm going to go ahead and move it up to "live." I'll go over existing employee articles and bring them in line with expectations over the next few weeks. - Felix Omni 15:04, 17 December 2018 (UTC)