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Dragon for each school of magic

→ moved from Talk:Elder Dragon#Dragon for each race

Following the above comments, I'd speculate that each of the Dragons are aspects or embodiments of the same magicks that the bloodstones represent. Think of this; Kralkatorrik: Denial, Primordus: Destruction, Zhaitan: Aggression, and Jormag: Preservation. What, you may ask, is the "Deep Sea Dragon"? Why is it still unnamed? I have a hunch that the DSD is a reference to the Canthan Empire, which is why Anet still haven't directly named it, and considering it is to the far south of the rest of Tyria, over the sea... meh, this has been said before by some other folks, you get the picture. But yes, the Canthan Empire, it's a "dragon" alright, it may or may not have to be "defeated" in some way, diplomatically or militarily. What I find tends to lend further credibility to the Four Schools of Magic theory is the fact the Gods of Tyria didn't simply wipe out the Dragons, being "...primordial forces of origins unknown, from a time before the Gods came to Tyria" (paraphrased of course). Given that we know Jormag rose in the northern seas/oceans, one could conclude that Jormag is in fact the one spawning tentacled critters from the deep, perhaps ancient creatures simply preserved in the northern icy seas. The awakening could be caused by the line of King Doric faltering/being under extreme threat (Queen Jennah's not that popular). The events of Eye of the North show that the (delayed) awakening could've been caused by the White Mantle's rising in 1070 AE, only 9 years Prior to EoTN's events, and the subsequent hiding of Kryta's monarchs, the death of Ruric, the madness of Adelbern, and the Cataclysm of Orr. Now Jennah's rule is threatened, and she's the only one left, perhaps actually the ONLY way to defeat the Dragons is to unite the races, and protect the bloodline of Doric, thus locking the four Dragons behind the power of the Bloodstone. No big boss fight, no actual dragonslaying, no summoning of super-god Ub3r weapons, just a rather clever piece of bloodstone ritual which puts the dragons asleep again, thus tying up the bloodstone mystery, the need for unity, the lack of interference from the Gods, why and how Abaddon sought the final destruction of Tyria, and many more details along the way. Of course, my speculation could be wildly out, I hope Anet have some huge story line twists that I haven't seen, and that I'm just making square pieces fit in round holes. These are just huge speculations I'm making on the evidence so far :) P.S If anyone'd like to discuss this particular theory, or question me for more details on my take on it, perhaps me good old talk page would be better than this patch of main space Darke 02:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

First and largest issue of your theory: there are four schools of magic and five Elder Dragons. It fails due to numbers just as the "one dragon for each god" does as there's one too many gods. The second is that there is nothing about Kralkatorrik that is related to Denial, nor Jormag with Preservation; less so, there is less that links Primordus to Destruction outside of fire being destructive. Fact of the matter is that all five Elder Dragons corrupt, and all five cause destruction. The closest you'd get to the four schools would be Jormag being Denial (in EoD, his minions hold mesmer-like abilities, and mesmer is the caster profession with the closest tie to Denial) and Kralkatorrik being Preservation (the crystalline bodies become extremely hard and the bodies enlarge - with the icebrood, they shatter easily due to being ice).

Third issue is the Deep Sea Dragon which is heavily implied to be related to why the krait were pushed from their homelands (the deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean). The Empire of the Dragon is not the Deep Sea Dragon - the empire did not awake from the deepest depths of the ocean, nor is it twisting waters into tentacle minions. The deep sea dragon is an entity - one shrouded in mystery for the purpose of being a mystery - whereas the empire of the dragon is a nation. Vastly different things.

Fourth, Jormag's minions are icebrood, not tentacled creatures; furthermore, he awoke in the mountains not ocean. Same goes with Zhaitan, who also awoke underwater, who does not twist waters or the environment, but only corrupts dead bodies. It should be noted that each Elder Dragon corrupts in a different way (this has been stated by Jeff Grubb himself via Eric Flannum on Guru2 - search the lore forum (Durmand Priory) with the keywords "Jormag corrupt," it'll be a post in the thread "Discussion on Jormag" or something of the sort) - Jormag via the mind, Primordus creates minions via fire and earth (never corrupting living beings), Kralkatorrik corrupts the physical being, Zhaitan corrupts dead bodies, and the DSD corrupts water.

Fifth, It was explicitly stated by Jeff Grubb in a short interview with GuildMag that the Cataclysm had absolutely no effect on Zhaitan (to paraphrase his words "wrinkles in the crust wouldn't even scratch the dragon"). Similarly, it was repeatedly stated that the Elder Dragons are awakening due to empty bellies - this was even stated by an dragon's champion in Edge of Destiny.

Sixth, Jeff Grubb also stated a while back in an interview with GuildMag, which is also stated on the bloodstone page, that the bloodstones don't have an importance to the main story of GW2.

tl;dr research more. Konig/talk 03:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

@Konig: Seems clear to me you either didn't fully read, or didn't fully understand, what I wrote. I did have a rather long-winded post detailing more, but I thought it'd be better for you to do the leg work, so I decided not to bother posting it, and will instead say this: Feel free to entertain some possibilities described above (without instant dismissal), ascertain you've understood them fully (without instant dismissal), then go back and check your sources for their various differences to your opinion (I.E Jormag's awakening as described on this page, the bloodstone's relevance to the INITIAL release of GW2), and then if anything really is outstanding after that, feel free to drop me a message on me talk page :) tl;dr research more Darke 17:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I did fully read, but it is possible I did not understand in which case you telling me to research more will not suffice in solving the error of communication. However, for debating pleasure, I will quote the original forms of my counter-points.

1. On first issue: I do not feel the need to source such, as it's obvious there are four schools and at least five proclaimed Elder Dragons.
2. On second issue: I remain by the point, which shows I did not immediately dismiss the possibility (in fact, the basis of your speculation was a previous line of thought I had a while back, which after pondering I dismissed), that Jormag is more related to Mesmers (via corruption of mind as shown in Edge of Destiny) and not Preservation as while ice does preserve (as does any lack of moisture, such as in a desert) the icebrood are shown to be prone to shattering (again, source is Edge of Destiny). Kralkatorrik's minions on the other hand, while also shatter with enough force, are far more resilient (once more, EoD is source - and I'm not interested enough to dig through pages of the book to quote where militia can fight back icebrood but trained militants get slaughtered by branded, when this point isn't in dismissal of your speculation but an alternative view).
3. On the third issue: "By “nearly” you mean “once every fifty years or so over the past 250 years”." (Source) This tells us that, beginning with Primordus (50 years post EN), Elder Dragons awoke every approx. 50 years. If the DSD were not a dragon, then there'd be a 100 year gap between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. "That changed 50 years ago, with the invasion of their territories by the krait. This slave-keeping, aquatic race had been denizens of deep trenches, but they suddenly erupted into traditionally quaggan lands, destroying their civilization." (Source) and "We learned more about the krait as well, and while we're familiar with them from EotN, this new version is a lot nastier, thanks to the underwater dragon." (Source) These two lines - first directly from Anet, second being a paraphrase from Anet - further the fact that the DSD is an actual dragon. Furthermore, the time when the krait left their homelands matches the approximated time of the DSD's rise, as well as the location (the "deep trenches" (quoted and linked above) which are in the gw1:Unending Ocean (Source) and "deepest depths of the sea" (Source)). While the existence of the DSD is questioned in-game, and unknown to most of the major races of Tyria due to its lack of influence (most likely due to distance), we as players know it exists. "And just to make things even more interesting, not all Elder Dragons and their champions have the same general powers. Jormag has definite mind-affecting powers – the others may not. The Great Destroyer did not seem to corrupt living creatures as opposed to create mockeries out of stone and magma, while Kralkatorrik definitely did. Each Elder Dragon is a unique form of destruction, and expecting them to have the same abilities is like expecting a typhoon to be an earthquake. Their similarity is in the destruction and pain they leave in their wake."
4. On the fourth issue: I shouldn't need to source this either. Jormag is ice, Zhaitan is undeath, Kralkatorrik is crystal, Primordus is fire (and earth), and the DSD is watery-tentacles (to the best of our knowledge). However, I will source the comment of corruption taking different forms and means based on the dragon (I was wrong earlier, it wasn't Eric but Stéphane Lo Presti).
5. On the fifth issue: "Zhaitan is unaffected by such small things as wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents." Source The Cataclysm had no effect on the Elder Dragons. "The dragons have woken up, and they’re hungry." Source "If the Elder Dragons rise and sate their hunger upon Tyria, they will destroy the world." Source "they've awoken hungry, they corrupt anything they touch, they devour anything that gets in their way and they destroy anything that opposes them." Source "The Elder Dragons do not eat in a traditional sense—they corrupt and consume. It is their nature. They will not be content until they have made the entire world like they are, and destroyed the rest." Source and many more... The Elder Dragons woke up hungry (another source would be Glint in Edge of Destiny). Even without the hunger bit, if the Cataclysm was small, how can political unrest or insanity of a person (or death of another) attribute to the awakening of the Elder Dragons. The best your argument holds to counter the over-used hunger bit is this: "Why exactly are they waking up now? Unrevealed, but they are waking up hungry." [www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/ Source]
6. On the sixth issue: The exact wording is "We are not revealing what has become of the Bloodstones yet, but they may have an influence in future expansions." (Source) This says that any plans as of the interview were nonexistent - expansion or not. It might mean that they'll be a focus in the future, and perhaps this interview sparked some ideas for Jeff for such, but to base a hypothesis off of something which is an elaborated way of saying "we have no plans at all as of this moment" is foolhardy.

Wow, what do you know, I didn't immediately dismiss the even more absurd (to me) parts of the hypothesis, such as Doric's lineage being related to the Elder Dragons. Which I don't see how you even get to such, considering the only connection between the royal bloodline (Doric's bloodline) with the bloodstones is that the gods charged them to protect the bloodstones, and that Doric's blood was used to seal magic. Furthermore, how the heck would political unrest (e.g., following the queen or not) affect the Elder Dragons, even though the though that the well-being of the royal bloodline is related to them waking up. Same goes for death as sooner or later, every human dies (and more are born). I suppose you can argue for the number of them - but considering at least one king had illegitimate children, and the idea is pretty commonplace in GW (Canthan emperors for instance have lots of concubines), and then there's the fact that Adelbern wasn't in a direct royal bloodline despite being linked to King Doric, he was a mere commoner - if there's two commoners-made-royalty (Adelbern and Salma), then there's got to be a lot more commoners-never-made-royalty that are related to King Doric... which then throws that possibility (number of Dorics) out of the possibilities.

I do not dismiss your hypothesis without reason. I do not need to look up sources simply because of how you presented it - it is either like random rambling (the last bit, about the tying stories and Doric's lineage) or it contradicts what is known (DSD). Konig/talk 20:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

At this point we reach a conclusion. I concede to the point of square pieces in round holes, and it's nice to see you do possess the ability to flesh out your dismissals rather than being one of those testy "blaaaaargh speculation is BAD! *speculate*" types. I might find something amiss later, but the sleeping pills kicked in around your third issue, so I'll pick it up from there tomorrow. Darke 21:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm more of a "speculation without evidence is bad" type. If you've been to the Guru1 or 2 lore forums you'd see that I theorize a lot, but I always try to base things off of something. And I try my best (though with failure) to only disagree with something greatly when I have counter-evidence. Konig/talk 00:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)