Talk:Darkrime Delves (story)

Is it possible to enter this Area after you completed the Story? I want to go back there to get the achivements but after completing "Forging Steel", I only have the option to go back to the EoTN

After completing the entire story for the release, toggling Steel and Fire to active spawns a purple (achievement) mission start point near the Scrying Pool that puts you straight in Darkrime Delves. Nero9012 (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Story chapter number

The following query, searching for all Icebrood Saga story missions, shows that labelling this story step, Darkrime Delves (story) (in general all Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire but there's only one. Edit: forgot Forging Steel (story)), should not share the same chapter number as Shadow in the Ice does since it interferes with our sorting property chain.

	Has story chapter	Sort 1: Storyline	Sort 2: Chapter	Sort 3: Sortkey	Sort 4: Step
Coming Home	Prologue: Bound by Blood	8	0	0	1
Revels & Rivals	Prologue: Bound by Blood	8	0	0	2
Bad Blood (Bound by Blood)	Prologue: Bound by Blood	8	0	0	3
Deeper and Deeper	Prologue: Bound by Blood	8	0	0	4
A Race to Arms	Prologue: Bound by Blood	8	0	0	5
Silence (story)	Whisper in the Dark	8	1	0	1
What's Left Behind	Whisper in the Dark	8	1	0	2
The Wind and Nothing More	Whisper in the Dark	8	1	0	3
The Invitation	Whisper in the Dark	8	1	0	4
Chasing Ghosts	Shadow in the Ice	8	2	0	1
Still Waters Speaking (story)	Shadow in the Ice	8	2	0	2
Lost Spirits Found	Shadow in the Ice	8	2	0	3
The Hunt Begins	Shadow in the Ice	8	2	0	4
Voice in the Deep	Shadow in the Ice	8	2	0	5
Forging Steel (story)	Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire	8	2.5	0	1
Darkrime Delves (story)	Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire	8	2.5	0	2
Pointed Parley	No Quarter	8	3	0	1
Shoulder to Shoulder	No Quarter	8	3	0	2
Snapping Steel	No Quarter	8	3	0	3
Distract, Destroy, Distrust	No Quarter	8	3	0	4
Turnabout	No Quarter	8	3	0	5
Behind Enemy Lines	Jormag Rising	8	4	0	1
Wrench in the Works	Jormag Rising	8	4	0	2
A Simple Negotiation	Jormag Rising	8	4	0	3
Pantheon of the Wild	Jormag Rising	8	4	0	4
One Charr, One Dragon, One Champion	Jormag Rising	8	4	0	5
Primordus Rising	Champions	8	5	0	1
Tidings and Misgivings	Champions	8	5	0	2
Defending Tyria	Champions	8	5	0	3
Roaring Flames	Champions	8	5	0	4
Jormag's World	Champions	8	5	0	5
Jormag's Madness	Champions	8	5	0	6
Wildfire (story)	Champions	8	5	0	7
Frozen Tide	Champions	8	5	0	8
Flame vs. Frost	Champions	8	5	0	9
Calm in the Storm	Champions	8	5	0	9.5
Dragonstorm (story)	Champions	8	5	0	10
Champion's End	Champions	8	5	0	11

The question is: How should we label the intermediate episodes which have some prefix, e.g. Prologue or Visions of the Past. While the prologue is straight forward and can be set to chapter sort key 0, the intermediate episodes Visions of the Past, probably more to come, are a little bit tricky. Two solutions come into my mind:

• Give them an own chapter number, however this would shift the following episodes and their numbers. E.g. No Quarter would then be labelled internally as episode 4 while externally it is in fact episode 3.
• Give them a decimal number between the two episodes. E.g. Shadow in the Ice = 2, Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire = 2.5 and No Quarter = 3.

Both solutions require a manual adjustment when using it in a query, but I'm favouring the second one (setting Visions of the Past to intermediate decimal numbers) as it doesn't affect the normal episodes. Any thoughts? --Tolkyria (talk) 13:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course, there are two: Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story). I somehow missed the first one, everything mentioned above holds for both missions. --Tolkyria (talk) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Since they're manual additions to the infobox on each page, I'd go with

• 1 = Prologue: Bound by Blood
• 2 = Whisper in the Dark
• 3 = Shadow in the Ice
• 4 = Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire
• 5 = No Quarter

My main reason being that people usually create the next stories by copypasting the previous one and adding one. I don't see it as a particular issue that it shifts it versus the ingame "numbering" (prologue = 0...) -Chieftain Alex 15:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, that's exactly what I wanted to avoid, another LWS1 waterloo. Comparing the suggestion:

Chapter	Your suggestion	My suggestion	Displayed text in smw result format templates
Prologue: Bound by Blood	1	0	Prologue: Bound by Blood
Whisper in the Dark	2	1	Episode 1: Whisper in the Dark
Shadow in the Ice	3	2	Episode 2: Shadow in the Ice
Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire	4	2.5	Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire
No Quarter	5	3	Episode 3: No Quarter
<upcoming episode>	6	4	Episode 4: <Upcoming episode>
<upcoming vision>	7	4.5	<upcoming vision>

Compare also the implementation in a smw result format template:

• Your suggestion: full #switch that needs to be updated each release, depending when we get a normal episode or a vision episode.
• My suggestion: simple #switch that for 0 and any X.5 suppresses the prefix and others uses the prefix "Episode" and the chapter number.

I hope this somehow explains my reasoning. If you still disagree, well, then go for it (it probably can't get worse than LWS1). In the end it's more important to have a proper sorting and not mixing up chapters. --Tolkyria (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

What usage exactly are you wanting to have a switch on this parameter for anyway? You don't usually ask random questions so I'm sure there is a point. -Chieftain Alex 20:44, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

First, I edited (temporary fix!) the chapter number to 2.5 for Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story) to provide proper sorting in the meanwhile, e.g. required here: Scrap of Icebrood Saga Mastery#Rewarded by

I'm using the chapter number to add the prefix "Episode <number>" in front of the episode name, e.g. in the following template {{Rewarded by result format}}. There the following code (here simplified) is used:

{{#switch: {{{Has story storyline number|}}}
  <!-- Personal story    -->  | 1 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * Chapter {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
  <!-- LWS 1             -->  | 2 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | {{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
            <!-- Flame and Frost: The Razing       -->  |  6 = * Episode 3: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Flame and Frost: Retribution      -->  |  8 = * Episode 4: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Last Stand at Southsun            -->  | 10 = * Episode 6: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Dragon Bash 2013                  -->  | 11 = * Episode 7: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Sky Pirates of Tyria              -->  | 12 = * Episode 8: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Bazaar of the Four Winds          -->  | 13 = * Special Event: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Cutthroat Politics                -->  | 14 = * Episode 9: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Queen's Jubilee                   -->  | 15 = * Episode 10: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Clockwork Chaos                   -->  | 16 = * Episode 11: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- SAB: Back to School               -->  | 17 = * Episode 12: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Tower of Nightmares               -->  | 21 = * Episode 13: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Nightmares Within             -->  | 22 = * Episode 14: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Fractured                         -->  | 23 = * Episode 15: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Nightmare Is Over             -->  | 24 = * Special Event: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Origins of Madness            -->  | 25 = * Episode 16: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Edge of the Mists (release)   -->  | 26 = * Episode 17: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Escape from Lion's Arch           -->  | 27 = * Episode 18: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Battle for Lion's Arch            -->  | 28 = * Episode 19: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Battle for Lion's Arch: Aftermath -->  | 29 = * Episode 20: {{{Has story chapter|}}}}} }}
  <!-- LWS 2             -->  | 3 
  <!-- LWS 3             -->  | 5
  <!-- LWS 4             -->  | 7 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: 0 = {{{Has story chapter number|}}} |Special Event|Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}} }}
  <!-- The Icebrood Saga -->  | 8 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
                                                                         | 0 | 1.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 5.5 | 6.5 | 7.5 = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
                                                                         | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
                                                                        }} }}
  <!-- HoT               -->  | 4 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: (0 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 6)|Act I|{{#ifexpr: (7 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 10)|Act II|{{#ifexpr: (11 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 14)|Act III|{{#ifexpr: (15 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 16)|Act IV|}}}}}}}} }}
  <!-- PoF               -->  | 6 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: (0 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 4) |Act I|{{#ifexpr: (5 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 8) |Act II|{{#ifexpr: (9 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 13) |Act III|}}}}}} }} }} }}

Yes, this is a monstrosity, but since we already have this, it's pretty much copy-paste now.

So we let's look at the chapter number for the individual story lines:

1. 1 Personal story: straight forward
2. 0 Living world season 1: no idea, but I don't recommend to adapt this after all the years. Compare with Braham#Story involvement
3. 1 Living world season 2: straight forward
4. 1 HoT: a little bit tricky to get the individual acts
5. 1 Living world season 3: straight forward
6. 1 PoF: a little bit tricky to get the individual acts
7. 1 Living world season 4: straight forward
8. 0 Icebrood Saga: a little bit tricky with the Prologue and the Visions

Hence the Icebrood Saga #switch would look like the following based on your suggestion:

{{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
 | 1
 | 4
 | <unknown upcoming vision> = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
 | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
}}

and based on my suggestion:

{{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
 | 0 | 1.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 5.5 | 6.5 | 7.5 = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
 | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
}}

The underlying problem is that for personal stories and the LWS 2, 3, 4 the chapter number is a sort property and a display property, while for LWS1, HoT, PoF and now Icebrood Saga it's only a sort property and hence has to be adjusted with a #switch.

Ultimately, as I already said, it doesn't matter, as long as the chronological order is preserved. --Tolkyria (talk) 21:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Jeez wild ride, I can't believe we have a template that formats story results into things like Bag of Verdant Brink Supplies. If making it use 0.5's and other fractions makes it easier for you, go ahead.

Originally I conceived this set of properties as a nice way to sort the results of the personal story when I was verifying all of the dialogue. Yes I know LWS1 sequence is a mess, I had real trouble figuring out which steps followed each other when i manually numbered them to get the updates to appear in sequence later. -Chieftain Alex 23:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Glad you got my point, at least to some extent, I somehow failed to structure it properly.

It's brand new (see Gilded Strongbox#Rewarded by for a really impressive list), Doodle's story pages bot edits finally motivated me to push these changes to {{rewarded by}} (together with Adventure rewards, based on your type bot edits). However, the idea of sorting story steps originates to the template {{Personal story chart}}.

Regarding LWS1: I by no means questioned the chapter order, which you added ~4 years after their release, based on this time gap and the missing structure of the LWS1 it's definitely the best you could have done. Due my more or less copy-paste code I think we are totally fine, luckily nothing should change there ever again.

Conclusion: If noone else contradicts, I suggest to set the chapter number for Visions of the Past to decimal X.5 numbers. Here, for Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire, released between the episode 2 Shadow in the Ice and episode 3 No Quarter, I suggest to set it to 2.5 for the story steps Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story) (as I already did as an intermediate fix). I think it also mirrors the dev's intention of an intermediate episode that doesn't feature the player's character but other character's perspectives. --Tolkyria (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)