Talk:Zhaitan

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Hard to Kill

Just how are we going to kill this guy? It seems highly unlikely that he's a traditional undead (resurrected), and seems to be a lich. Liches are almost immortal, the chosens could only defeat the Undead Lich when fighting on a bloodstone, and this guy is an Elder Dragon to make it worse! How can a beast like that be killed? With a party of 9? EDIT: forgot to sign...Tuomir 17:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think he's undead at all. And the personal stories have parties of... 5! Dun dun dunnnnnn (but there will be at least a single order and a 50% chance of a single Destiny's Edge member coming from the northeast at five miles per hour). -- Konig/talk 18:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, instanced personal quest... I forgot that... Still, with the dragon being called "undead Dragon" and two of the three original main antagonists of Guild Wars campaigns were either undead (Vizier Khilbron, while he did not necessary die before ascending into lichhood, he certainly was undead) or otherwise returned from the dead (Shiro), they might keep it as a common theme.--Tuomir 20:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

He's called the undead dragon because he controls undead, and that is what is minions are, the way Kralkatorrik, the crystal dragon, has minions made of crystals, and Jormag the ice dragon has frozen minions. That doesn't mean that he won't be hard to defeat though...he's some sort of Eldrich Abomination or something (Think Cthulhu) Zolann The Irreverent 21:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Zhaitan is probably not dead no. You wouldn't call Grenth the God of Death dead yet he still has power over them. Yet he might be a lich of some sort but dragons have powers unknown to the people of Tyria so it's all pure speculation at this point. I believe him to be some sort of Alpha necromancer, way stronger than any other and he's gonna be very hard to put down. :P Sjacie 21:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

hmm, more continents?

i think its pretty fishy that the dragon who is the primary antagonist is the one blocking overseas travel, perhaps if they do more expansions/campaighns/updates (WiK style) then canthan travel will be unlocked?Danw 10:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

It went something along the lines of - "Cantha and Elona will not be accessible in the initial release of GW2". So it's open territory. --Xu Davella 11:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Ummm...

Zhaitan will be the only dragon that players physically encounter. Since we have already seen that we fight Kralkatorrik (Shatterer) face-to-face, shouldn't this be removed? Or maybe I totally missed something Yeah, ok I did totally miss it, my bad. Shatterer is a lieutenant or champion, well poohp I was hoping we could fight lots of them in large scale epic battles (the actual Elders) Nay the One and Only 10:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I was hoping for the same, a battle (to survive) with the other elder dragons. But still, it must be a pretty big dungeon to have something as big as an elder dragon inside of it :p. Damysticreaper 11:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, not all dungeons are underground. I suspect he will be on a mountain or something.--67.142.171.26 13:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't that note say "the only elder dragon"? - 17:29, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

It should and now does. Zhaitan is the only Elder Dragon fought, but the other dragons will have their influences seen in the game (mainly via the minions). -- Konig/talk 20:25, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd speculate that the other elder dragons are being saved for expansions. --Moto Saxon 13:57, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I hope that the ED won't be end targets in any expansion. That is, imo, just too boring in terms of story, and very little reason to spend a whole game on. Stuff the size of Sorrow's Furnace's update (had the Titan quests and SF itself) however, would be better. Konig/talk 14:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's pretty much a given that combating the Elder Dragons is going to be the end target of anything (expansion or otherwise) within GW2 since they have such a huge influence on the world. HOWEVER, considering all of the other races bobbing around with their own legends and "end of the world" myths one can speculate that there will be plenty more to look at (Dhuum, Dredge, Last of the Dwarves, Wardens in Echovald, Kanaxai and his "rogue demons"?, the Ossai line, Torment, Kodan northlands, threat from the north of Giant's Basin, hell, even the odd [Tyrannus] who has a higher level than the Fallen God of Secrets, take your pick). There'll be plenty secondary-primary missions abound, just probably not as important as the Elder Dragons. 199.126.37.144 16:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Notes

re: [1]

The game has not been released yet. It probably isn't common knowledge at the moment, and it probably won't be even when the game is released. Also, I don't like putting important info like that in notes, on either wiki. On GWW, info that should be put up in the main body or even in the introduction is often put under notes - at the bottom of the page and usually with other bullet points. I'd rather we didn't go that way here. It's definitely more important and relevant than background lore, though I doubt Konig would agree :P. pling 20:44, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

It's even worse here beneath a note that says we don't know anything about this note but here it is anyway. pling 20:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

My reasoning: As it stands, you're right in that it's not common knowledge. Despite knowing since 09 that Zhaitan was the primary antagonist, I see few people realizing this. However, I disagree in that it's more important. He's the end-boss. So? Why is that important? Because we'll be killing him in the end? The storyline doesn't focus solely on him nor does stating that he's the end-boss benefit anyone. If anything, I'd call that a spoiler; a predictable one mind you. The fact that he's the only Elder Dragon that'll be fought is just as important but it shows nothing, it gives nothing but "yeah, we won't be doing that." It's like putting that the Ring of Fire islands won't be explorable in the initial release on the top of the page. It'll then make people wonder why we have the page at all. Why would we have Primordus, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and "Deep Sea dragon" if at the top we're just going to say "this guy won't be seen in the initial release of the game" (or by making it pop out that Zhaitan's the only fought ED on this article) - it reduces the quality of those articles. Same goes for this - you say he's the primary antagonist... the story becomes predictable, and part of the game loses its flavor.

The final conflict isn't important at all in any story medium - game, book, movie, etc. It's the build up. And guess what's the beginning of the build up? The background lore. You can't have an epic clash without a reason for that epic clash - where's the motivation? The inspiration? Where's the point behind it? You can say "this is our final foe" and go into why, or you can go into why and then say "this will be our final foe" - imo, the later is much more entertaining.

Now, Pling, I know you don't care one way or another about making the wiki entertaining - in fact, you've stated that the wiki is for documentation and not entertainment. In a way, you're right, and in way, you're wrong. We can state all the information in the world, but if it sounds like a monotonous teacher than no one will read it. By giving it flavor, people will read it.

But even without that, what's the point of having it right up in front that this guy is the metaphorical "end"? Fact is, grouping up similar information together makes things easier to read. Group mechanical with mechanical, lore with lore. Notes often has some mechanical, so over on GWW, the rest of the mechanical information has been placed either in Notes or nearby. And a Notes section doesn't look good on top.

Regarding your edit: Huh? "beneath a note says we don't know anything about this note but here it is anyway" makes no sense. First note is about the cycle of awakening, second note is about whether the ED are allied to each other, third note is about those seen in the game. None are contradicting like you seem to say. -- Konig/talk 21:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The note I was referring to is "The Movement of the World mentions a "cycle" of awakening. Nothing more is known about this statement.", particularly the second sentence. But anyway. I do agree that lore has its place and I do find it interesting and entertaining too. However, Zhaitan being the main enemy in GW2 is a significant plot point, not a simple note, so, at the very least, it should be in the body, not in a notes section. It's important to explain why the epic clash will be an epic clash, but it's also important to say there will be an epic clash. If you want to integrate it into the lore, that'd be fine - "the immediate danger and threat posed by Zhaitan will unite the races of Tyria in attempting to get rid of the bugger once and for all", or something along those lines. pling 16:36, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Pling on this. I think too much interesting and important information gets put into the notes section instead of writing it into the article where it should be. I hate notes sections. :) -- aspectacle  00:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

And I hate lore getting mixed with non-lore where they become part of the same sentence. And when you try to separate them, it turns out worse. Notes to me has always been "relevant non-lore information" and the fact that table of contents exist is to reduce the scrolling to get to such information. Personally, I don't care where what is placed so long as 1) it doesn't metaphorically bleed eyes (which to me, any use of the word "background" - among others - as a use for a lore section does, even when above that section is lore) and 2) the lore and mechanics are not mixed. And for simplicity's sake (and clarification), I'm considering plot devices (e.g., "protagonist" and "antagonist") as mechanics - not game mechanics, but story mechanics.

And to avoid those two issues, of all the possible outcomes I have seen, how I've been doing it (lore as introduction, then mechanics) works best. If an alternative can be found, I'm open to alternatives.

And no, I don't think that something being a main antagonist is important, nor is the fact that Zhaitan's the only Elder Dragon fought (the latter mainly because we still are heavily influenced by 3 others) - they come to me as afterthoughts, especially at this stage and more-so when the first expansion is out. Khilbron was only important as the primary antagonist in the last few missions (few being from Sanctum Cay on - 12/26), but before that we had: Justiciar Hablion, Confessor Dorian, Markis, Dagnar, and Bonfaaz Burntfur. Sadly, only Hablion got the deserved specialty in the storyline outside Khilbron (this is a case of poor story to game transition). But they were all "primary antagonists" - Khilbron was just "the end boss." With being told that there's so many different storylines, with only one unified end-boss, there's going to be a large variety of "primary antagonists" just like Prophecies. Are we going to say "this guy is the main foe of x story possibility" on every single page? I understand we're a wiki and we document things, but such things shouldn't be placed at the top - especially without a spoiler tag. -- Konig/talk 01:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that lore and mechanics can live beside each other more comfortably than you make out. To me it is all information on the topic and it should be presented in the most unified, cohesive, coherent way which allows the reader to understand the topic without necessarily needing to go elsewhere to do so.

I don't really agree that stating over half of the game is devoted to ramping up battle with this elder dragon is a spoiler. That it happens in a dungeon I could be swayed to thinking as TMI/spoiler for intro stuff. Rather than exchanging walls of text on what constitutes spoilers I'll make a few changes to the page and see what we come out with working together on these aspects of the page? -- aspectacle  00:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with Pling's edit, actually. The only argument I could think up against his edit would be the combination of lore and gameplay in one paragraph that will easily be skipped by users who disregard lore completely. Even then I find this a minimal objection and should be disregarded. It's their loss not to read the entire article and the information is still documented exactly and fully. - Infinite - talk 17:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh... wait... 5 players against elder dragons?

Just read the part of the interview with Eric Flannum saying that you will fight this big fella as part of a dungeon... and according to the Dungeon page, you enter on a instanced area with a team composed by up to 5 players... The Shatterer can take on a lot of players and charr siege weapons, and he is just a champion. How strong are the players supposed to be at that point? Maybe this is to make the party the size of Destiny's Edge? I wonder if they (just him right now) will be fought as part of a chain of events trigering stuff to weaken him while avoiding his attacks... it can't be charging forward with a group of 5, that's sure. Lokheit 22:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

NPCs and environmental weapons. And just because you're in a dungeon doesn't mean you can't have siege weapons. Or there's always the chance that you'll get some senseless super magical item that let's you fight him. - 22:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

You mean that type of super magical item that is what you need to defeat the big boss and just by chance is exactly where the big boss uses to sleep right? Like the Lich fighting you near a Bloodstone? :P Well maybe during the story you have to find this artifacts instead of them being near Zhaitan. I'm starting to imagine this "dungeon" as a huge battlefield filled with people from the 3 orders and the 5 races instead of what's usually known as a dungeon... Zhaitan has an army in adittion to his huge size so it's probable. And it's interesting too that as a dungeon, it will have a later explorable version with multiple ramifications, I imagine his champions trying to take his position like Mallyx tried with Abaddon. Lokheit 00:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

with the elder dragons as big as we know them to be (kralkatorrik's back was an entire mountain range!!), i can barely imagine zhaitan fitting inside a cave underground... "dungeon" probably just is a term they use to refer to areas that can only be entered by instance... i'm imagining that the entire ruins of Arah, former home of the human gods, overrun by his undead army, and entering from an area just outside... possibly an NPC outside telling you that it's too dangerous to enter alone, that once you go through there, you're bound to be killed. and so you go through, starting the dungeon as parts of the massive city, until you get to Zhaitan, and you assault him from the cityscape, using the technologies of the city's defenses against him and his army, fighting alongside Destiny's Edge for a group size of 10, plus any other allies you may have. Then once it's cleared, the repeatable section of this "dungeon" lets you travel the city without having to worry about zhaitan, and having other challenges to clear in different sections of the massive city you never went before. (that fits with their model of replayable dungeons too) ~~ Kiomadoushi 01:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Based on what we're told about the orders, only Durmand Priory will be using the super weapon. Order of WHispers will likely be using some form of sleeping powder, which will likely become a stealth mission therefore fewer=better. It's the Vigil which will be an all-out-war based on appearances. We also know that Destiny's Edge can be taking part (I recall an interview saying that our actions during the personal story will determine who among the five will return, if any). And of course all the orders will likely have the orders' NPCs themselves.

All in all, I'm expecting something akin to Turai's BMP - we see miniature NPCs running and fighting in the distance while we pull some sort of side mission of utter importance that'll involve getting into position for a weapon (the spear from Edge of Destiny, for instance, may be used), sleeping powder-esque object/spell, or finding the ED's weakspot and using brute strength.

@Kio: Really, as far as I can tell dungeon doesn't mean "underground" - keep in mind one known dungeon is a mansion. Now, granted a mansion is not out in the wide open, but I can see said dungeon including the wide open lawn of the mansion. In turn, I can see the fight with Zhaitan being more of a instanced version of an explorable zone acting just like a dungeon (e.g., 5 team members). -- Konig/talk 01:46, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, from a gaming POV it would be a terrible idea to make the last parts of the storyline a dynamic event like the Shatterer. I can see way too much rage at missing out on that event just as they require it (and having to wait, say, half an hour or longer). No one likes to wait, which would explain the instanced part. The Shatterer is an optional event (afaik), but Zhaitan is not optional at all.

That said, who knows what temporary powers we obtain in this final battle. - Infinite - talk 10:15, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to try in being logic, When you fight the Shatterer, you are unprepared, you don't know his weak points, you don't know when he will strike (from a ilore-view at least). now with Zhaitan it is different, by then you will have found some weak points through the story, you will prepare yourself and you'll know what to do and not to do XD (again lore-view). So in fact Zhaitan should be easier to defeat than the Shatterer in this case, netherless if Zhaitan would come crushing in on Lion's arch at a random time, THEN would he be like insane-mode.--Sierra84.196.112.114 11:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Who's saying that we can actually defeat him? Ge4ce-Talk-Contribs 16:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Because we must. If we don't defeat him, he'll defeat us. Killing him, on the other hand, is another matter - though that's the goal of two of the orders. -- Konig/talk 16:06, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I personally imagine this fight as very similar to the Uruthemiel (or however you spell that) battle in Dragon Age. You start at the gates of his lair and call upon your chosen allies as necessary, fighting through hoards of minions til you eventually meet Zhaitan for a massive battle of him vs. you and whatever allies haven't died yet--Indigo121 00:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Physical Description

From this[2] page of the Making of Guild Wars 2 book [3]. If you read the top right paragraph it describes Zhaitan as being a dragon composed of other smaller dragons. I think this is the first time they mentioned this and since they also describe it as "taking forever to model", it sounds like this is likely the final production concept for the character. Auslander 19:58, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

When I first read it, it sounded like that was the original idea for Zhaitan which was changed. Not sure when I re-read it, what the case was. It's an interesting concept... Only seen it done for insect swarms with a shared consciousness, will be curious to see it on dragons. Edit: Actually, this would explain the File:Dragon 05 concept art (The Left Hand of the Dragon).jpg and File:Dragon 06 concept art (The Dragon Head).jpg concept art names - could they be the left hand and (part of) the head of Zhaitan? Konig/talk 20:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

:O you are onto something...-- shew|make 21:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

My main curiosity is the fact that we've seen concept art of Zhaitan which puts him as a single entity - including both File:"Zhaitan" concept art.jpg and File:"Last Shot" concept art.jpg, as well as the nice little eye seen in the first trailer. Konig/talk 22:17, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, that comment in the book didn't really sound solid enough to make it on to the main space, I say we remove it --Indigo121 00:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

While I agree with solidicity of the comment, I think having it in the notes section will be fine. Konig/talk 00:30, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Defeating Zhaitan(Monks: Comeback????)

Because of Zhaitans huge size and power(ANet sayd that dragons are stronger tha the gods) defeting him will be extremly dificult. Then I rememberd something... Zhaitan is a Necromancer. In Guild Wars 1 the necros hated the monks and the monks hated the necros because of they choises to become the other. And another thing... there are no monks in Guild Wars 2 so I think that the gods will grand the player special powers that only the monk can use, or the player will found the last monk ^-^. What i mean is that I think that the monks will play important role in defeting Zhaitan, not as healers, but as a person who uses the power of the gods because they are blessed by every god(or something like that). I whould really like if the monk gets a comeback not like a healer, but like a perosne using the powers of the gods(because they are blessed by every single god). Hope you like my idea.NOTE: I haven't read abouth monks in GW2 anywhere, this are only personal speculations.213.114.124.246 20:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The monks won't ever return as a playable profession because they are, by definition, dedicated healers and Anet wants to lose the "dedicated role" professions. The monks probably still exist for NPCs alone (in fact, I believe there are some Ascalonian ghosts who are monks), and for players there are the guardians which are, effectively, the love child of monks and paragons. So if you want to play a monk, go guardian because that'll likely be the closest you'll ever get. As for "blessed by the gods" - play a human, as they believe all professions are blessed by a certain god (btw, the profession blessed by all gods are elementalists and dervishes - more so the latter). There won't be a profession that in lore is always blessed by the gods because the Six Gods are only relevant to humanity. Konig/talk 20:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

They could return as they exist in every other lore ever - chi/ki powered melee fighters focusing on hand to hand combat :p -Auron 22:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

While an interesting idea, such talk is best left for forums, not wiki talk pages. These are for discussion of the contents of the page as they effect the wiki (such as "how much info do we put on the Zhaitan page and how much on the Elder Dragon page?" and "what is a reference and what's not?"). Thunderduck 02:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Way too easy? *Spoilers!!!!*

I won't release everything about the fight but let's just say fighting him you do not even get to hit him with your character and he never attacks the characters. There are videos available if you want to see, it's a rather pathetic fight. I know it's an all powerful dragon and all but we should be able to battle Him, maybe using some sort of ancient artifact to lower his power or something? I still want to fight him! It's what I've been looking forward to and from the looks of it this fight is extremely disappointing. The lead up to it is good until you actually face him. And SPOILERS it says that he is "no more" really Anet such a lame battle we have been told over and over how mighty these dragons are and looking forward to fighting them and this is what we get? A fight where you mash one button and cannot be hit? So stupid and should be changed. And he should enter another slumber or something. If he's so powerful how is he so easily killed?

The following is very spoilerific, beware... I agree. I beat the dungeon with my guildies and the fight up to him is very epic and eventful, eventually fighting off three Eyes of Zhaitan, until the big dragon himself became available to fire upon. You get on cannon and simply mash the 1 button to bring him down. No more minions, no confrontation from himself. He stays there, perched on whatever that thing was and waits to be killed. It's like he knew he was gonna die anyway, so instead of landing on our ship and giving it all he's got, he stays there, lazying around, while we drop his health to zero. I wish there was more to it, I really do. The dungeon was too short in my humble opinion: fight off three bosses, blimp ride, fight off three towers and a returning boss, blimp ride, a few dragons, then Zhaitan. I had a feeling it would take us hours, but we beat it under at least 1.5 hours. I don't feel disappointed, however, I just expected a bit more from ArenaNet's claims and promises... --MaximusLupus 17:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

my email to A-net

I'm a loyal fan of this series and I have been looking forward to this game for years. Me and my friends have been gaming hard on this incredible sequel to an incredible game. The whole world of MMO's is changing and GW2 is at the head of the curve! You guys have successfully integrated a whole new combat system and quest system without ruining the old feel of guild wars. This has potential to be the perfect game everyone was hoping for, and more. There's just one problem. ZHAITAN. My friends have been avidly playing since release and I must say we have been astounded by the attention to detail and the surreal landscape of this incredible game. All the boss fights leading up to this were top notch. But in one of the most important aspects of this game, Areanet dropped the ball. All around the community the few of us who have battled this "almighty undead all-powerful dragon" are extremely upset with this anticlimactic ending to an amazing game. Videos have been posted and the word is out. A-net has always been very good to its customers and has garnered a massive amount of loyal gamers for this. No subscription and no play 2 win aspect of this game is what everyone nowdays is searching for. But one of the most important aspects of these games is the climax, when the gamer feels all of his work is about to pay off in a big way. What happened was the complete opposite! We were told repeatedly that these dragons are not just a force to be reckoned with, but a force that is threatening to destroy the world of guild wars. We have been told that there will be an "ultimate encounter with zhaitan." as an avid fan of this game I can say without a doubt that this "encounter" was flat out pathetic. First off, as just a Minor thing, the dragon was smaller than expected. This could be solved by just having him be closer, not on the next mountain over. Sure, there could be point of view problems but we understood that when we heard of his size. A fight like that with the shattered but much harder would have been a great fight and an explosive finish to a great game. Maybe the use of an ancient artifact to lower his ungodly powers would be used. The dungeon battle building up to him was also very good and well constructed. We see a cutscene as this fearsome dragon flies dangerously close to the aircraft, and land on an adjacent mountain. We then get to shoot at him for 5 minutes as he does absolutely nothing to defend himself. This is really a feeble and just disappointing attempt at an "ultimate encounter." I would accept ANY encounter with him. This isn't an "encounter", it's a massacre. It's not a fight at all. Please, for the sake of this game and the company that made it, listen to your fans, as you always have! Change this disappointing battle altogether! Develop zhaitan into a cruel and evil dragon, a formidable foe with depth. Not a one sided enemy on a screen that have heard so much about, but seen nothing resembling intelligence from. Most of all, we need a good fight. Plain and simple. A fight that is memorable and intense. We, throughout the whole fight, don't receive a single scratch from him! Area net, as a loyal player, on behalf of my fellow gamers who share the same opinion as mine, change this fight! Thank you for your time and it would be greatly appreciated to have this changed. It would without a doubt increase the excitement of this game and ultimately lead to more sales. The players know what they want. Please listen to us and take this into consideration!!

Oh cry me a river. Not every single aspect of a story should conclude in the most spectacular fashion possible. This was a dragon who was threatening the very existence of Tyria, and it is refreshing that ArenaNet picked a more pragmatic ending. If this were the case of "slay the dragon in it's lair" like every other work of fantasy would makes us believe, they would have done so. Did you missed the epic cutscene in which Zhaitan is fatally wounded and plummets to that tower, as he clings to his very life? That is no different than say, the Lich King being hanged on the air like a loot pinata on the last portion of his encounter. So yeah. It was a fitting end for a force of nature. No fanfare, no fireworks. Just a sigh of relief as a great evil kicked the bucket. ~ Kailden, *random timestamp*

You know, i myself tend to disagree to such posts about complaigns of people of how bad things are in the game, but this time i totally agree.

Zhaitan is by far the most dull and boring final battle i have ever played, not to mention it is also ridiculously easy wich are all no-goes for any final battle of an RPG/adventure game. Not only is Zhaitan small comparing him to the liuetenant class dragons wich were supposed to be small dragons and the big ones absolutely massive compared to them while Zhaitan is about 3 times larger at most than the liuetenants. Second is that i am only seeing half a dragon, you can probably make him bigger by giving him a lower end of his body instead of a few tails that hang outside of his torso like a bunch of entrails.

Well i have no complaigns about the difficulity getting to the final battle but please redo that battle and rescale Zhaitan to a size matching your own so often made claims about the elder dragons.

A tip how to redo the battle is to make it an old-school RPG final boss battle, one that you fight in multiple phases. Zhaitan should have plenty of body to fight against being a dragon composed out of dragons, make use of that concept and let players fight against those dragons that are part of his body until they reach the core of the body. The aid of a weapon created trough combined technology to assist the players could also be added.

If you don't want to redo the mission and air battle completely than i suggest to let the battle continue after he goes down with the excuse that the players only defeated an extention of his body while the rest remains hidden underneath the mists. It also opens up the ability to rescale him properly, the design can remain the same, just a bigger version.

Well i'm sure that there are more people with ideas of how he should be fought and this is mine to improve it. Summing it up: continue the battle after you bring Zhaitan down with the airship cannons and let the players fight multiple sections of his "out of dragons composed" body. The last battle is against the core of his body, once that has been defeated you have defeated Zhaitan and finished the game.

Right now to awnser a question you guys made when making the game; Is it fun to play? awnser: NO! Da Mystic Reaper 17:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

"You know, i myself tend to disagree to such posts about complaigns of people of how bad things are in the game, but this time i totally agree." - Same. The dungeon is fun up to after killing the laser beam cuts Zhaitan in half.

However, I feel there's something really important that everyone's forgetting: Arenanet ALWAYS adds in post-end-game content meant to complete/further the story of the initial plot 3-4 months later. They did this with gw1:Sorrow's Furnace and again later with gw1:Domain of Anguish. I'm unsure if they did the same with Factions, though there was such content. GW2 is currently missing this content (unless you count Arah explorable - which I don't since we seemingly don't see Zhiatan's corpse, or for that matter, go through the eastern half of the dungeon's space). So I think that our qualms may be settled in the near future... Konig/talk 18:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't care about that even one bit at the moment, i'll rate it after it comes out. What the big complain here is is that the bbattle against Zhaitan is just terrible and needs to be redone, and no aditional end-game content can make up such a terrible battle. New content trough updates may seem important to you Konig but right now it's unimportant, what's important is that Zhaitan gets updated first (and other major cons), then new content gets the important stamp. Da Mystic Reaper 18:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Erm, my point was simply this: Zhaitan isn't the "final battle". That's all. People treat him like he's the end-all-supposed-to-be-the-best-there-ever-is boss battle... but he isn't meant to be. He's just the end of the first larger chapter of the MMO that is GW2. I do not disagree that the fight should be reworked - I have several ideas on how to improve it too - however, I think people are stretching the importance of the fight. Konig/talk 18:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

But Zhaitan is currently considered the last boss to beat to finish the first part of the game. Even if it will not be the last that does not make an excuse for the battle with Zhaitan to be such a big disapointment. People expect it to be epic and it should and that's final, if it is going to be the benchmark standard i fear the disapointments the future boss battles will bring us. I don't know if you have fought him yet but the way you talk about it makes me thing you still have to, if you already have just ignore this comment. Da Mystic Reaper 19:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I have - twice, in fact. The thing to keep in mind is that expectations are almost always going to be far exceeding actuality. This moreso with games, perhaps especially MMO or RPGs and in this situation, given the limitations of being able to show such an awesome fight. Imagining a fight with Zhaitan will always be far superior to watching one or even playing one - simply because our imaginations, and in turn expectations, do not have the bounds and limitations that depictions (regardless of mediums) have. I agree - as I have said twice now - that the fight with Zhaitan himself is disappointing, but it's not at all unreasonably disappointing nor should it, in my honest opinion, be considered a benchmark.

The main issue, I believe, was the overhyping super-overpoweredness the Elder Dragons are given - it's just outright unreasonable to expect a "proper" fight with a creature capable of lifting an entire nation from the depths of the ocean. And while I expected more than this, I never expected such. Just be glad we're not swinging swords at toenails. Konig/talk 19:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand your point very well as i was also thinking at first how the heck are you going to fight something ao big. Airships would be the most logical choise but Zhaitan ended up alot smaller than claimed nor as power as claimed and the latter bothers me the most. What probably gives me the biggest disapointment that makes it such a bad fight is that Anet could have done so much more with it, even within the reasonable limit. You also said people have their expectations too high, well that's because Anet managed to raise the expectations of people to such an "unreasonable" level. So please don't put that much of a blame on the high expectations of the players. Da Mystic Reaper 19:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If you read my response fully, you'd note that I do blame ArenaNet for overhyping the Elder Dragons. Konig/talk 19:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Let me correct fully to carefully, i tend to miss some parts of people's response and end up with flawed reactions like now. Well back to the original topic, let's hope Anet will come up with an update that will make Zhaitan meet up to the (reasonable) expectations of people Anet made them have. At this point you do have the feeling that Anet owes it to the community after raising the expectations so high. Even you should agree to that at some point. Da Mystic Reaper 20:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I just completed this, and maybe they changed some things but I had a different experience than some of your are describing. Through most of the fight with Zhaitan, the deck was being filled with these Wurm-like dragon head things that would attack people working the guns. If I didn't stop using the guns to fight them off, or if the rest of the team didn't do it, then they would have killed me. Honestly I don't know how else they could have managed it. Should my Asura Thief have been raining deathblossoms on a creature that was so large that I could have crawled into its pores? That would be stupid. Would you be afraid of a single amoeba with a pair of daggers? Of course the final battle would come down to some sort of siege weapon showdown. Your big epic melee battles are the ones against his minions that make that siege battle possible. This whole argument reminds me of all the ME3 whiners, where people actually complained that you couldn't snipe the Reapers to death with your handheld rifle. It's silly.Ohoni 00:53, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems like you had a harder time with Zhaitan than i did. Those "wurm-like dragon heads" as you call them were no trouble for my team at all at that time. 2 of us were plenty to deal with them while the rest fired the cannons at Zhaitan and occasionally the other 2 as well. It was ridiculously easy and Zhaitan when down in less than 5 minutes, wich is shamefully short for a final boss. It seems like you also have the same problem as anet when it comes to the fight, not knowing how to make an interresting fight with a creature of such size (wich is smaller than they claimed). Going the easy way and fire some cannons is a way but you should also concider this: for a dragon of such size and caliber of power it should be very easy to sink such a big airship, Zhaitan raised an entire continent, raised armies and armadas of undead, took out fotresses and has slain armies but cannot take down a simple airship? Anyone can tell it's just wrong, even you should agree that that is just "silly". As for the fight of how it could be done instead i think i mentioned it already; make use of the fact that his body is composed out of dragons and let the players fight a section of his body untill they reach the core of his body, if it's a body composed out of other dragons there should be something keeping them all together. How to fight those parts as little creatures i already gave an awnser to that; rather than an airship give the players a weapon to assist them instead. Use your imagination and be creative for the fight against Zhaitan i say. Also on a sidenote i haven't played any of the ME games. Da Mystic Reaper 12:30, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Zhaitan Image

I was having some issues with the picture. I uploaded what I think is an improved one, but it's kind of messed up. When you click the new image, it takes you back to the old one. I tried to fix it, but I couldn't.

Use the refresh tab at the top of the page to clear the wiki's cache, then use Ctrl+F5 (or maybe Ctrl+R depending on browser) to clear your browser's cache. —Dr Ishmael 17:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Does 'defeat' imply death?

According to Matthew Medina, Zhaitan has been defeated. Does this imply death, or are we going to assume defeat is somehow different than killing the Elder Dragon? - Yollm

I think it's a "left in the air intentionally so that the developers can do whatever they want with it in the future" - either say "he's dead" or, if they want him to return or not be killed, say "he was only beaten back" or "part of him was killed" or "he was put to sleep, only." Basically, it's a "we don't know what defeat means" in this case. Konig/talk 18:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Since Ruins of Arah explorable mode occurs after Zhaitan's defeat, and the dungeon contains mobs which still hail Zhaitan... players can draw their own conclusions based on that. ArenaNet were pretty definite on that when Abaddon was defeated, that he was truly slain for once and for all. Such has not been yet implied in Zhaitan's case. Mediggo 19:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Trusting Risen is a bad move. They *love* to use psychological warfare, and lie all the time. Konig/talk 20:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Just finished A Light in the Darkness, and it seems to imply that even the reverse isn't true. Zhaitan is just the largest visible aspect of a larger corruption... This at least explains why Risen numbers never fall even after Zhaitan is buried (more so than the mechanical impossibility of eradicating the endgame challenge a few months into the game's lifecycle), but it leaves a lot of questions about what's going on and what can really be done about it. SarielV 22:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

If you're referring to the "Source" - see The Source of Orr. SPOILERS All King Reza was meaning was that to cleanse the corruption we'd have to cleanse the Artesian Waters as they are the source of water in Orr - all rivers in the peninsula originate from that magical spring, which was corrupted by Zhaitan and will re-corrupt any uncorrupted areas. He also meant that killing Zhaitan doesn't end the corruption - as Trahearne picks up on at the end of Victory or Death where he states that the Pact continue to fight Risen forces though now they cannot (as easily) spread the corruption with Zhaitan's defeat. The real question comes in with Tequatl, since BobbyStein said there's a story behind his power boost. Konig 23:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Year of defeat

I don't think we can absolutely denote all the events of GW2's plot up to Zhaitan's defeat as happening in 1325. There's dialogue during Join Osborn as he hunts a giant frost wurm by one of the NPCs (when talking to them in dialogue boxes) that Osborn missed the Great Hunt due to a winter blizzard. That would mean The Great Hunt took place in winter - per the Mouvelian calendar, that puts it within the last 90 days of the year. We know that from Forging the Pact to The Source of Orr occurs over "several weeks" by Occam's dialogue, and Thorn likely occurred after Zhaitan's death - meaning that either the tutorial(s?) occurred in 1324 AE, or most of the game - including Claw Island and Zhaitan's defeat - occurred in 1326 AE. Konig 20:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

What I'm using for the basis of this year is the fact that that The Lost Shores occurred after Zhaitan's death, and Flame and Frost happens after the Lost Shores. An NPC in Flame and Frost refers to Wintersday in past tense, which marks the end of one year and the beginning of the next, which suggests that either Flame and Frost occurs in 1327, or Zhaitan was defeated in 1325 and Flame and Frost takes place in 1326. I think it's possible that either the Great Hunt occurring in winter was an oversight, or that it took place in the winter of 1324 and GW2 takes place a little later than that in 1325, which seems more likely. --Santax (talk · contribs) 20:43, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

My point exactly, actually. I suggest we look into it a bit more before creating definitives (before you rewrote it, I was going to remove the "in 1325" bit to have it read that Zhaitan was defeated in Arah - but now that doesn't really work). 20:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

last trivia addition

too trivial imo. -Chieftain Alex 11:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed, and it's even better than the original! —Dr Ishmael 12:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Zhaitan's Size

Okay, am I the only one more than a little awed by the fact that Zhaitan, a single freaking dragon, is larger than the USS Voyager, a freaking starship? 72.196.207.118 01:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Star Trek generally has very modest sized ships compared to more fantasy-oriented science fiction like Star Wars. For more information, I refer you to the best chart ever. 02:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That moment when I realized that the Executor, if hollowed out, could basically serve as a hangar for the entirety of Next Generation-era Starfleet... one of the few truly mind-blowing moments in my life. Gene Roddenberry did an admirable job of keeping Trek believably realistic. —Dr Ishmael 03:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

-=-=- It should also be noted that Zhaitan's size was perceived as 'three times larger' than that of the Lieutenant dragons... But this disregards the perception of scale - the second ship in that part of the story, 'The Glory of Tyria' was probably twice the size of the first.

IF Zhaitan appeared three times larger....Chances are that he was more likely to be six times larger, based on the scale of the vessel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.161.111.199 (talk).

I think that comparison comes not from in-game perspective but comparison of the models in an external space which were laid out in normal in-game scaling. Konig (talk) 21:48, 30 March 2018 (UTC)