Talk:Jormag

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Source[edit]

Why is everybody so sure, that Jormag the ice dragon is the dragon in the drakar lake? Especially if Jormag is often reffered as a living lizard, as it is stated in the last sentence. This guy fits the describtion just much better. A big lizard sitting on a pillar of ice, surrounded by many ice elementals, sounds much more like the ice dragon. The dragon in the lake doesn't look like the describtion, he looks alot more like some aquatic creature(Deep Sea Dragon?). Frostasche 16:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Page 220,221 of the book; Edge of Destiny. Nuff said. Ge4ce-Talk-Contribs 16:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
It's been confirmed multiple times that the creature came from Drakkar Lake - Edge of Destiny is one of many sources. Not all of the sources always state he came from Drakkar Lake, but they all state he awoke from a lake. Oh, and a dragon, no matter the shape, looks reptilian - hence the lizard references. And wouldn't you think that ice pillar guy to push norn north, since he's south of the main population of the race? -- Konig/talk 21:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Further proof (I know its only beta still)... There's an NPC in Hoelbrak that talks about Jormag, Aesgir, and Hoelbrak. I will attach a screenshot of her dialog stating that Jormag is indeed the Drakkar Lake dragon.
Jormag DialogMagi 00:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Well that's one hell of a blunder because Jeff Grubb explicitly stated that the creature under Drakkar Lake is not Jormag. There was a huge controversy over it and Stephane Lo Presti and Jeff had to step in about it. Konig/talk 18:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Pronounciation[edit]

The videos say it with a J like that in jacket, I feel like it should be pronounced like Yormag, especially as it comes from the Scandinavian themed area. Anyone else think the same? --smøniShield! 19:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, sylvari comes from Latin, but it's not pronounced sylwari. ;)-- 98.83.201.16 19:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I can pretty much guarantee that most things in GW will have an AE pronunciation. EiveTalk 20:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Hoelbrak comes to mind. - Infinite - talk 21:38, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Ho.. hee.. heeellbrrr... ... ... Damnit.--NeilUser Neil2250 sig icon5 Anti.png 20:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
HEALING BREEZE! --you like that don't you..The Holy Dragons 20:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Lore Conflicts[edit]

I'm confused, if the Dragon in Drakker's Lake was Jormag's champion, as The Shatterer is to the Crystal Dragon, then why does it say that The Nornbear was the first Jormag champion if that Dragon has been under the lake for centuries? -- Professor Shaft 19:45, 14 April 2011 (GMT)

Svanir was the first champion, the creature under the ice become Jormag's champion later and probably we can fight with it in GW2. 91.82.183.229 19:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Not really, IP. We're actually unsure of the whole situation. The creature is said to be Jormag's champion but if so it should of either been one before Svanir or after Jormag's rise - in which case the Dragonspawn is dead. It's a retcon that makes little sense. If any, in fact. -- Konig/talk 19:29, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Wait, I thought that Jormag was the Drakkar Lake dragon? Zolann The IrreverentUser Zolann The Irreverent Mysterious Summoning Stone.png 19:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Read the reference given on the page. - Giant Nuker 19:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a champion frozen in a lake was not nearly as effective as Jormag would have hoped, and thus went searching for another. Until the champion in the lake could break free, that is. - Infinite - talk 20:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Any champion stupid enough to get himself frozen in a lake should be fired, imo. :) --Xu Davella 03:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Don't think he was frozen - but more likely in a state similar to the Great Destroyer before it woke up, merely waiting for the time to herald its master into the world. Or dead. Still, that creature should be Jormag imo, makes it more interesting since it would mean we interacted with it and its effects far more than the other ED (okay well, sure Primordus we interacted with his minions more, but still). -- Konig/talk 04:46, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
^ This. Also, "In 1078 AE, Jormag whispered promises of power to Svanir and turned him into the dragon's first champion, a half-norn half-bear covered in ice known as the Nornbear, and also robbed his sister, Jora, of her ability to "become the bear."" implies that it was awake or conscious enough to perform a magical event x miles away. I guess this makes him "awake" before Primordus. Eh, what the hell, I blame the Commandos and their time travel for making this plot hole. :P --Riddle 05:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
We know that the dragons can have multiple Dragon champions(Jormag has two, Primordus has two, and Kralkatorrik has two). I wouldn't be surprised if Svanir was the first champion, Deathspawn was his second, and then a third champion is the dragon under the lake. Jormag awoke in 1165AE, Svanir was around during EoTN in ~1170AE, Deathspawn was around and killed years later when EoD was together which was after Kralkatorrik awoke in 1320AE. So I guess we really have no idea what happened to the Drakker's Lake dragon, can only assume that he slept in for a few years :P Cirdan User cirdan signature.png 06:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Wait, the Dragons on have one champion each, so what are you talking about when you say two champions? -- Professor Shaft 18:58, 15 April 2011 (GMT)
Dragons are able to have multiple champions. --you like that don't you..The Holy Dragons 14:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Do you mind giving some examples of this in the case of the other Elder Dragons? So far there's only been one Champion/General/Lieutenant at a time for each of the EDs --Professor Shaft 17:49, 15 April 2011 (GMT)

(indent reset) Wasn't the rise of the Great Destroyer the "stirring", but not Awakening of Primordus? We could infer that Jormag was stirring at the same time--and it's possible the other dragons were as well. This could be how Jormag "whispered" to Svanir--I mean, who's to say dragons don't talk in their sleep? The preceding unsigned comment was added by Syreas (talkcontribs).

Dragons talk in their sleep (trust me, my girlfriend almost dumped me because of it). and I'll search for an example Shaft. --you like that don't you..The Holy Dragons 16:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
@Shaft - According to the Dragon champion article: Kralkatorrik has Glint and the Shatterer. Jormag has Svanir and Deathspawn. Primordus has the Great Destroyer and Destroyer of Life. Cirdan User cirdan signature.png 17:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I could have sworn each of those replaced the previous rather than being a simultaneous champion, unless I'm misinterpreting you on that point.
If it wasn't Jormag under the ice, then its champion was more likely the one that transformed Svanir, seeing as it did so for everyone else. So if that's true, then Svanir wasn't technically a champion but rather just a prototype icebrood, or maybe at best a champion for the champion. He always seemed kind of small-fry for a champion anyway. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 18:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
To be honest, Svanir has been looking like a regular Icebrood since we first heard of the Icebrood. - Infinite - talk 18:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I never really considered the distinction between whether they are concurrent or replacements. It does make more sense that Svanir is an Icebrood instead of an actual champion. Anyone have a source where it says that Nornbear was his first champion? Cirdan User cirdan signature.png 18:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, this threw everything out of whack... Zolann The IrreverentUser Zolann The Irreverent Mysterious Summoning Stone.png 19:35, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
It actually started making sense to me. - Infinite - talk 20:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
What separates Svanir from regular icebrood is his ability to dimensional step--not shadow step--which seems to be a higher power or gift from the dragon. Nowhere in the lore has it come up that regular icebrood are granted magical abilities they would not retain in human form. --Sy 21:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC):::::::
The Edge of Destiny book stated that Svanir was the first Champion of Jormag, so the creature beneath the ice can only be Jormag. It's even been stated that the Dragon beneath the lake IS Jormag by ANet themselves. It just seems that ANet wants to retcon Jormag's appearance. They could've just said that he changes when awakening, i.e. getting bigger, instead of coming up with this lazy and poorly thought out cover-up. ----Professor Shaft 01:07, 16 April 2011 (GMT)
I've asked on Twitter, though they don't seem to like answering me so far, as I've also asked about aquatic weapons and whether Cluster Bomb and the like have a special skill type, with no response. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 00:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
"It's even been stated that the Dragon beneath the lake IS Jormag by ANet themselves." ArenaNet specifically stated Jormag ISN'T the creature in Drakkar Lake. - Infinite - talk 00:20, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
"This could be how Jormag "whispered" to Svanir--I mean, who's to say dragons don't talk in their sleep?" How this article is phrased implies that the "whispering" was pretty deliberate—i.e. he sought out Svanir to corrupt him, rather than, "Oh, hey, look, a random, exploitable native!" say, unwittingly broadcast a message to the native population (which Svanir picked up). --Riddle 00:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) @Cirdan: There's a huge difference between having multiple champions in total and having 1 champion at the time. The situation is the later. Even for the Shatterer, which is in fact a rank and not a name to an individual.
@Infinite: Yes, this was recent however. In the past, we had heavy implications of it being Jormag under the ice - the description given to the concept art of Drakkar Lake was that they wanted it to seem like the primordial creature has been sleeping so long that the area froze around it, for instance - and I'm sure we've had explicit statements saying that Jormag was sleeping in a lake (never said "Drakkar Lake" but a lake). EoD furthers the heavy implications. It's a point blank retcon which was done because they disliked Jormag's appearance and turned him into a traditional fantasy/European dragon (which they said in the Art of Guild Wars 2 they weren't going to have, btw), and because of this the situation now makes no sense. -- Konig/talk 01:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Was the Dragonspawn also not under a lake, according to Edge of Destiny? That would be a consistency amongst the chaos, that all champions and Jormag himself rose from a frozen-in-a-lake state. If not, they probably retcon'd his appearance to be of similar size class, like the other Elder Dragons. Which doesn't help solve the confusion, I know. - Infinite - talk 01:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
The Dragonspawn was in an underground cave - supposedly Jormag was too, or at least the Dragonspawn was able to call upon Jormag's power which made it seem like there was a presence akin to Jormag. Or some such. The novel made it seem (to me at least) that Jormag was deeper into the cave's system... which means that the size in GW1 was pretty accurate to how big he could be.
And TBH, Anet had no need to retcon Jormag to not be under Drakkar Lake - Kralkatorrik is capable of turning into literal sand, and is said to be more magical than physical, implying that the Elder Dragons are capable of changing their size, shape, and so forth. What we saw in the lake could of been Jormag's "true" form or just a smaller form it likes to take when it goes swimming - but instead they retcon'd it. -- Konig/talk 01:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but don't the dragons control their hordes of minions via some sort of hive mind (the dragon being the hub of the hive)? If Jormag controlled the Dragonspawn via the hive mind into creating further icebrood that are in turn controlled by the dragon's shared consciousness, couldn't Jormag (who I assume was further north at the time, hence disturbances of the northern ocean) whisper to Svanir through his existing champion/lieutenant under Drakkar Lake? It would not be the first time shared consciousnesses have existed within the GW universe (see The Great Dwarf/Great Destroyer). Perhaps it'd be more apt to compare the shared consciousness with that of a server/client network; Jormag's the master server, his lieutenants are routers, the icebrood are the clients; thus when you kill one of the lieutenants, all of the icebrood (clients) created (connected) by that lieutenant (router) become disconnected from Jormag (master server), much like how the destroyers lost their coordination with the destruction of the Great Destroyer. Does this seem correct? Did Anet incorporate their networking knowledge into the storyline? Am I still sane? Darke 09:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
"What separates Svanir from regular icebrood is his ability to dimensional step--not shadow step--which seems to be a higher power or gift from the dragon. Nowhere in the lore has it come up that regular icebrood are granted magical abilities they would not retain in human form. --Sy 21:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)" I'm not so sure it was a gift; I'd be more inclined to say it's the Norn's inherent shamanic powers were amplified, he transcended the "simple" invoke-the-spirit-of-Bear stage and gained the ability to walk in the Spirit plane (maybe somewhere within the Mists) similar to (but not the same) as Shadow Stepping, perhaps that power which Jora lost was given to Svanir? It wouldn't make sense for the benevolent spirits of the wild to take Jora's ability to become the bear for rejecting a power so evil as Jormag, it would however make sense to have Jormag steal those powers and give them to his new Champion, rather than expend some of his own power (A mistake Primordus made, the expenditure of power when the Great Destroyer was lost cost him some extra time asleep) Darke 10:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
First analogy betweeen dragons and networks I've ever seen, but it makes sense. On gww it says "Frozen within the lake itself is a large creature. It is a lieutenant of Jormag, one of the Elder Dragons to be featured in GW2." I always thought Lieutenant and champion where different, so I don't see why Svanir can't be Jormags first champion, just because he has a lieutenant.Jnew 10:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I do know Svanir i said to be the first champion but since anet said that the creature underneath drakkar lake is a champion of Jormag and predates Svanir I would suggest to change the tex of Svanir being the first champion of Jormag to the first known champion of Jormag, that would make a bit more sense lore-wise and does not conflict with the current knowledge we have about them right now. Da Mystic Reaper 21:09, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

sometimes called "Dragon" by the Sons of Svanir[edit]

That cannot possibly be worth mentioning on an article, surely. Any objection to me removing it?

This just in: Dragon called 'dragon' by some. News at 11. User A F K When Needed Signature Icon.png A F K When Needed 06:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Not 'dragon' but 'Dragon' (similar to Bear, Wolf, and so forth - also, it should have been "a dragon is called 'dragon' by some." for your joke). It's worth mentioning because 1) I believe it's used fairly often by norn (from what I recall from the demo videos of Hoelbrak, most used Dragon and not Jormag), 2) it furthers the case of Jormag being treated akin to a Spirit of the Wild, and 3) it clarifies to readers which one of the 5 Elder Dragons and who knows how many lesser dragons the proper noun Dragon refers to. If we didn't note who is Dragon, perhaps one would think it refers to Zhaitan, or Primordus, or heck, even Glint.
What I think should be changed is the removal of "sometimes." Perhaps switch with "often" or just simply "is called" and add on an addendum for why it's called Dragon (or rather, move the two related notes next to each other). In fact, I'll go and do such now. Konig/talk 08:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Much better. :D Thanks! User A F K When Needed Signature Icon.png A F K When Needed 13:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


Female Icebrood[edit]

Are there any objections to removing the section that states that only men come back as Icebrood? We see female icebrood in the game so this line is misleading, as it suggests they don't exist. We also see forcibly converted icebrood, so the second half of this paragraph could be edited to reflect that while Jormag normally seduces rather than enslaves the latter can happen under certain circumstances.--Incrediblezagzag (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Jormag's gender[edit]

There's been some disagreement on what we should do with the note on Jormag's gender on Discord, and I'd like to summarise it here:

  1. The voice as heard in the trailer sounds ambiguous: some people think it's definitely female, others think definitely male.
  2. We have some tweets from Tom Abernathy's personal twitter stating that Jormag is non-binary and has a female voice actress. Some people are hesitant to use non-official channels such as dev twitter accounts as sources.
  3. It's unclear if, when Tom called Jormag "non-binary", he was referring to sex or gender identity. Typically that term is used to refer to gender identity, though.
  4. It's unclear whether Elder Dragons even have sex or gender identity at all. We know their scions do -- Glint produced eggs (sex), and Aurene telepathically told the Commander her name and pronouns minutes after birth (implying gender identity) -- but we don't know for sure if one or both of these traits are scrubbed away upon ascension to Elder Dragonhood. (I'd like to remind everyone that our job is to document the game. ANet are the sort of company that would (and did) treat sex and gender identity as separate, so let's be adults and assume the concept of "dragon gender identity" is a plausible thing ANet might put in the game, even if we don't agree with it.)
  5. We don't know whether the Sons of Svanir are aware that Jormag is non-binary. All we know is that they sometimes refer to it with male pronouns.

My opinion is that for now it might be a good idea to just leave the gender note as "Jormag's gender is unknown, and its voice sounds ambiguous. The Sons of Svanir sometimes refer to it as male." —Idris User Idris signature.png 19:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

My view is that we should take a "just the facts" approach and list everything relevant that is supported by a reliable source. We could include a discussion of the sources and try to come to a conclusion from them, but it would be simpler just state the facts, confusing warts 'n all, and let readers come to a conclusion for themselves.
Having said that, whether or not it is coming through an official channel, the fact that ArenaNet's Narrative Director refers to Jormag as "non-binary" is clearly relevant and should be noted (as should the fact that the voice actor is a woman). It's word of god and I don't think it's our place to decide that readers don't need to know about it.
One tricky bit is the question of which pronouns should we use throughout the page - "They/Them/Theirs" or "It/It/Its"? I think the answer to that depends on whether "non-binary" refers to Jormag's gender identity (which I guess is a thing that eldritch beings from the dawn of time have now?), as it is usually understood to mean, or whether it refers to hermaphroditism, environmental sex determination, gynandromorphism, or something else entirely. But if the article is pointedly not going to take a position on what the term "non-binary" is referring to, how do we decide which pronouns to use? Santax (talk · contribs) 20:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
We could always simply not use pronouns, and instead say Jormag, Elder Dragon, Ice Dragon, this dragon, the dragon revered by the Sons of Svanir, etc. Warming Hearth (talk) 20:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree that Tom's tweets seem reliable, but I wanted to make it known that there is disagreement there. Apparently there have been issues with using personal tweets as sources in the past, though I'm not aware of the details. I think any mention of the voice actress belongs in the trivia section rather than the notes section. With regards to pronouns, my opinion is that "it" is acceptable in this context. "It" is inappropriate to use when referring to people because it's dehumanizing, but for all the recent storylines that give us insight into the minds of Elder Dragons, they're still pretty alien and monstrous, so I see no harm in continuing to refer to Jormag as "it". —Idris User Idris signature.png 20:31, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Interestingly, Suspicious Travelers refer to Jormag as "he". They were only added to the game a few weeks ago. —Idris User Idris signature.png 23:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider the Sons of Svanir nor the Suspicious Travelers as reliable narrators. They offer us their personal view of Jormag, but that view is likely tainted by Jormag themself brainwashing them into servitude. Using "it" in the article sounds perfectly fine to me. Warming Hearth (talk) 23:47, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
My proposal:
  • Although it is arguable that Elder Dragons do not fit into gender binarism, Jormag is expressly stated to be non-binary (ref).
    • The Sons of Svanir and Suspicious Travelers sometimes refer to Jormag using male pronouns.
    • Jormag is voiced by an unknown female voice actor (ref).
The tweets, albeit from a personal account, are a perfectly reliable source. Besides, I'm yet to see anyone pledging against their use in this particular context. "Jormag does not fit into a gender binary,[21] but its voice actor is female" is just awful, the gender identity of the voice actor is irrelevant to the gender identity of the character. Jormag's gender identity should not be held against the gender identity of its voice actor. Warming Hearth (talk) 17:53, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Agreed about the voice actress, though ultimately it's up to the reader to come to their own conclusion. Like I mentioned before, I think the actor part should be moved to trivia. I don't think we should bother with saying "Although it can be argued that Elder Dragons don't fit into whatever"; let's just stick to the plain facts and say "Jormag is non-binary [source]; SoS and ST sometimes refer to it as male". —Idris User Idris signature.png 18:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Looks like we have our answer. See note 4 of Elder Dragons: Notes from the Field. Santax (talk · contribs) 16:51, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Lol wow, they actually went there. That's really useful. "They" pronouns confirmed; "non-binary" confirmed as Jormag's gender identity; gender identity in general confirmed as a thing Elder Dragons have. —Idris User Idris signature.png 17:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
This is not confirmation that Jormag is nonbinary, and claiming it is misses the entire point Gorrik was making. We don't know Jormag's gender identity, nor do we know the gender identity of any non-crystal dragon. We only know the gender identities of Glint, Vlast, Aurene, and Kralkatorrik because they told us themselves. BenLubar (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Non-binary is still confirmed as Jormag's thing because we have a dev tweet confirming it. You're right though, I was missing the point in my eagerness to put this topic to bed. I've tweaked the trivia line on the article describing Jormag's gender such that it's hopefully more accurate. —Idris User Idris signature.png 20:19, 22 November 2019 (UTC)