Talk:Deep sea dragon

From Guild Wars 2 Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search


Remember, it's name is Bubbles. EiveTalk 04:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Bubbles is his name. There are many names like that but this one is his. RhoninUser Rhonin Soren sig.pngSoren 19:31, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
OK...bubbles? Really? Is this one of those black sheep of the family dragons? No wonder he's in the deep sea.( 23:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC))
That's a player given term which originated from Guru of all places. Did you expect more from the people who turn Colin Johanson and Martin Kerstein into memes? -- Konig/talk 03:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
if we ever get to fight this monster i think it should be either a giant goldfish with laser eyes or a GIGANITC Liopleurodon ([1])"A pliosaur was big enough to hold a medium-sized car in its jaws, and powerful enough to bite it in half!"wow imagine THAT with ub3r g0d p0w3r$ Getefix 23:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
A magic liopleurodon. EiveTalk 23:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
can we add a redirect from bubbles pls? Getefix 17:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Changes by[edit]

This isn't the Deep Sea Dragon, but the leviathan... Corvus 20:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

bubbles is totally awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs).

he's not the leviathan, thats a monster in a level 15/20 area i dont even think thats his champion, just a sea monster Getefix 21:17, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
EDIT nevermind it wasnt in a level 15-20 area :P, i still dont think its the deep sea dragon, if not it would have a proper name and not just 'behemoth leviathan', maybe we'll fight this guy in a later expansion Getefix 21:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


This name was spoken in the Edge of Destiny book from the Minions. However, it didn't clearly say it was the name of the DSD. The only evidence I can give you is that it is between the two names of, "Joormag, Borea-Ka-luki, Kral-throk-tik." it is in the battle when Eir, Snaff, and Zojja first encounter the DragonSpawn. -- 23:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, he says "Kal-throk-tok! Borea-kal-lu-ki Joor-maag." The first word being said in two different occasions. Secondly, Kalthroktok is not Kralkatorrik - it's not even all that similar except that it starts and ends with a k and has a "al" near the beggining. Thirdly, he was casting a spell, drawing upon Jormag's power. The "Kal-throk-tok! Borea-kal-lu-ki" were most likely an incantation to draw upon Jormag's power. This holds nothing to the dsd's name. -- Konig/talk 00:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Under the Jade Sea[edit]

moved to User talk:Konig Des Todes

the awkward moment...[edit]

when we find out that bubbles is scared of water/cant swim XD Getefix 14:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


Is Tequatl the Sunless, the Deep Sea Dragon? I believed that it was Zhaitan's Champion. If this is so, why is Tequatl even mentioned on this page?

Shouldn't have been. Fixed.-- Shew 01:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the point in Arenanet's withholding of DSD's real name. There just doesn't seem to be a point, other than to create more worthless meme's.--Will Greyhawk 20:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Why does anyone withhold any information on an unreleased story? Would you like to know how Zhaitan is killed and how Destiny's Edge reacts to Logan before finding out in the game too? IMO, they shouldn't have said that Zhaitan was the primary antagonist of GW2, tbh. They're telling you more than enough, maybe the DSD's name is still not decided or maybe that it's highly spoiler-ific (hint: it's Abaddon). Konig/talk 21:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I wasn't too happy when I heard about that massive spoiler... --Xu Davella 13:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
That's kinda comparing apples and oranges, Konig. How (effectively) the first dragon is supposed to be defeated isn't on the same level as knowing the name of DSD when we already know the other fours name. Unless Anet has a really big reason for it, I don't see it as being spoiler-ish. Also, how hard can it be to pick a good name? We all knew Primordus' name as far back as EotN (or at least shortly after it). --Will Greyhawk 20:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think they have more up their sleeves than just how Zhaitan is destroyed. We might just as well end up not defeating the dragon for good. Even if he is the main antagonist and/or the only Elder Dragon mainly fought against in the initial release, it doesn't have to mean Zhaitan is the final boss or Zhaitan dies. :) That's how I see it at least. Elder Dragons are so big stuff in the game that they simply couldn't go without mentioning that. Think about Factions, it was pretty clear from the start who'd be the end boss. Same for Nightfall, and mostly Eye of the North, too. I like it that way sometimes. Instead of some random guy popping out of nowhere to face against us as the final big boss, we're constantly working against those villains for the ultimate confrontation. In GW2, the threat is clear, but that's all we know. Mediggo 21:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

@Will: My point was that they may not want to reveal everything, and we have no clue why - it could be spoiler-related, it may just be unimportant). Overall, they've only told us things that are relevant - we know relatively zip when it comes to the non-important/in-your-face information of the game. We know a lot of the primary figures and groups, of the primary threats - but most of this comes from the books, which is an in-universe explanation. That which doesn't come from the books is merely an expansion for what we know from asking in interviews. We know of Jormag due to the norn, we know of Primordus due to the asura, we know of Zhaitan due to the blockage, and we know of Kralkatorrik due to the charr and Edge of Destiny.
We don't know of this guy because he doesn't influence the major races of Tyria - this was even said in an interview why he isn't mentioned yet. With this guy, it's probably no more than that and the fact that ANet doesn't want to give us more than we need (so that we can get new kibbles and bits to chew on when the game comes out). The spoiler reason was merely an example why Anet may not tell us things. Konig/talk 03:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Page move[edit]

I actually disagree with the move from "Deep Sea Dragon" to Deep Sea Dragon. It's an unofficial name, and that's what quotation marks stand for. Alfa-R User Alfa-R sig.png 09:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The article was given quotation marks because as Alfa-R said, it's an unofficial term. However, this and only one other article were given such. They're unnecessary, imo. HOWEVER, dragon - if not sea as well - should not be capitalized. The GW2W consistently lowercases articles of unofficial terms. Konig/talk 17:06, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
"Deep Sea Dragon" is not a name, but rather a term. Correct capitalisation would/should be; "deep sea dragon." Which means this article should be moved to deep sea dragon. - Infinite - talk 17:11, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
moved from Talk:Deep sea dragon

No agreement on moving the page has been reached afaik, so no, as of the time being this is a fully functional and useful redirect, and not an obstucle to any decided action. There was another proposed move on the current page, and no deletion pointed out there, therefore i see the speedy deletion as too forward on the part of the person who suggested the move. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Xhosant (talk).

You could have posted that on the actual thread of the page suggested to be moved instead of creating a new page, yknow? Also, please sign your comments (~~~~) --zeeZUser ZeeZ Sig.png (talk) 16:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Three comments for, none against - that's consensus even if not many comments. After over a month of no comments, it should be moved. I'm the one who added "Deep Sea Dragon" for move, and added it first, then under Infinite's suggestion I added the second. I realize that deep sea dragon will be searched over "Deep Sea Dragon" so I added the tag to the non-quotation one. Konig/talk 22:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Still in the game?[edit]

I'm not really sure what's happening with Bubbles, as there's been no new information on him, and the latest beta seems to indicate there's only four dragons. An in-game book (in the Durmand Priory library in Divinity's from memory) mentions only four dragons, with a page of information and a "domain" for each (Fire, Ice, Death, Crystal), but nothing on the deep sea dragon. Even if we havn't been given information on him as it's not relevant to the major races, you'd think the major races would have noticed a fifth dragon showing up... Either he didn't make the cut for some reason, or the information is still coming as it is only beta; you'd think the lore would be settled by now though. Anyone seen any other interviews or in-game references about the DSD, or about there definitely being 5 dragons still? Desdenova 16:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

the reason why theres no info is cause no one has noticed it except the quaggan, bubbles is the reason for them coming out of the deep sea, he was sleeping so far beneathe the sea that when he woke up, no one noticed. we wont fight him for a while as only zhaitan will be fought in the initial release just cause theres nothing new about him doesnt mean hes not there, unless they confirm hes not going to be in at all Getefix 16:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) It was said there wouldn't be much information from the beginning - and the DSD's existence seems debated by the Priory and that library in DR has been "hand picked" for its contents as things "safe" for the public. By not relevant to the major races, it's meant they pretty much don't know of it - and we pretty much only had focus on the major races and low level areas, so there's a lot of game left where it can show up. It most likely is in game, but not in beta content. Konig/talk 16:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

What if?[edit]

Wouldn't it be funny if we didn't defeat Zhaitan at all but instead bubbles pops up and grabs him dragging him into the depths leaving us happy and scared to death at the same time. ~Angel~ --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Please note the wiki isn't a forum or personal blog. - Infinite - talk 18:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Shh infinite. Let us conspire. What if Selbbub is Zhaitan's cousin? Both of them were found underwater at first, right? They could even be brothers! ~Mini Oh, and i've deciphered that Selbbub is going to be the next elder dragon we fight. I mean, why else would LA be dressed up like seaworld and they opened PVP water area for a short while? Selbbub. That's why.

Does he really exist?[edit]

The ingame book "The Elder Dragons" doesn't mention him, not even a reference of a possible aditional dragon. I know he's mentioned on the Movement of the World article, but if he really awoke before other known dragons, why the Durmand Priory doens't have it documented? Or it's simply that a-net doesn't want us to know yet? Maybe he will be mentioned during "Sea of Sorrows" and they don't want to take the surprise from us? Lokheit 07:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

''The Elder Dragons'' is an in-game book, some of the races may not have heard or seen the Deep Sea Dragon as of now. we know of the dragon's existence because of the The Movement of the World article as you said, yet it's written by the all-knowing Arenanat, not the Humans, Sylvari, Charr, Asura or Norn. In short, it has been confirmed it exists, but the races may not know it yet. Or it could've been a bug in the book's text. highly unlikely --you like that don't you..The Holy Dragons 07:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Quaggan and other underwater races sure know there's something there even if they don't know what it is. Mediggo 07:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Do we know when the book was written and when the Quaggan sought contact with the major races? --you like that don't you..The Holy Dragons 07:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Quaggan actually may not. The only race that is implied to have direct dealings with the DSD and its minions are the krait. Quaggan were pushed to Tyria either by Jormag or the krait.
@Lokheit: Anet stated that the major races do not know about the DSD, furthermore the Durmand Priory member in Durmand Hall which is where said in-game book can be found explicitly states that the library has books which the Priory has deemed safe for public knowledge - on top of this, Jeff Grubb once stated in an interview that Dougal Keane read The Movement of the World and that's why he says in Ghosts of Ascalon that there could be more out there (it is also why he left the Priory, because he disagreed with their methods of public knowledge).
@Holy: The Movement of the World is, while written by Anet (as all things are!), an in-universe document as well and was stated by Jeff to have had multiple revisions since its writings. But in short, the Priory may or may not know of the DSD, however if they do then they do not want the public to know which means given our knowledge the most likely means of learning about the DSD in-game will be via one of the following three: 1) An event chain, personal story arc, or NPC that deals with the krait and why they were pushed north; 2) joining the Durmand Priory; 3) An event, personal story arc, or NPC which is around one of the outer underwater areas surrounding Orr (as per the full map, the two northern maps of Orr hold the most water). I find number 3 least likely due to best water access being in the Sea of Sorrows and indications show the DSD being in the Unending Ocean.
A fourth possibility may come from the Order of Whispers who likewise gives information out on a "need-to-know" basis and has access to Elona.
Edit: The quaggan and krait both arrived in Tyria approximately 50 years prior to GW2, which is approximately when the DSD arose. We do not know when the book was written except that it was written after Kralkatorrik rose, which was 5 years prior to GW2. But again, Priory censors shit. Konig/talk 07:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) (Edit conflict) ! Krait have been in Tyria since Eye of the North, remember? It was only about 50 years ago they started invading quaggan. And that's five years after the dragon awoke according to Timeline. Mediggo 07:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
That seems to have been only a minor group of krait - the main population lived in the deep trenches of the Unending Ocean, per Shadows in the Water. And per The Mostly Harmless Quaggan, the krait that invaded them came from said deep trenches... and kept pushing to mainland Tyria. It should be noted that Anet loves to round dates, so the 50 years should be taken with a "give or take 10 years" addendum, and the DSD's rise is approximated to be 50 years prior to Kralk's rise since we were told that the ED awake approximately every 50 years - so that's really also a "give or take 10 years" scenario. Konig/talk 08:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm just saying that there was krait in Tyria before rising of any dragons. But it can't be a coincidence that krait became aggressive during the time of DSD's awakening. Mediggo 08:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Speculated photo[edit]

The photo of Eir as she looks into Bubble's eye is a speculated photo. But, the photo in Tyria_(world) is also a speculated photo. What holds more value? Should we be able to list this photo in this section?

Eir swimming concept art.jpg
J0el 11:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
The world image was taken from the dat, and parts of known Tyria can be seen; it's reasonable to argue that it is Tyria (although it might not be my first choice for the main image). However, there's not much to show that the Eir image shows the DSD - it's just that an eye has been the centre of some hype/speculation/conspiracy theory lately and this particular image was caught up in that. pling User Pling sig.png 11:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Clearly that isn't Bubbles eye. This is Bubbles eye --Mooseyfate 00:26, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

npcs know?[edit]

im sure that in one of the quests they mention that there are 4 left (this is after killing zhaitan) i wanna know how the npc's know he exists if we, the players dont Getefix 13:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

NPCs know of its existence, though it's not common place. The Durmand Priory and Inquest know of six Elder Dragons, there's a dialogue implying the Inquest has a single minion of the DSD but unlike the other minions have not yet experimented on it (no place to put it as Zone Blue is under construction). There's a hylek's dialogue talking about the dragon's influence reaching so far north in relation to the krait and quaggan having gone to the area (which gives little sense in relation to Zhaitan, truth be told, since they wouldn't be at Tyria without the DSD). Largos also make mention of horrors in their home - the ocean depths. The Order of Whispers know that five elder dragons exist - though the one mention of it never says which is the fifth (however, they should know of all six, since one of their members infiltrated the DP and is researching the six EDs). Konig/talk 13:54, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

As of the new living story, Taimi tries to recall it's name but can only remember it started with an S. The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs).

Which is proof she's seen the full name before, and her forgetfulness is just Anet devs teasing us even further. Konig (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Here be dragonnes[edit]

Anyone else notice the connection between the old cartographers' method of denoting uncharted/unknown seas and our mysterious, anonymous, aquatic critter? SarielV 20 x 20px 15:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Recent edit - orbs in the machine[edit]

I hope this gets seen, since this talk page is long and hasn't been edited in almost two years...anyway, Konig said in the edit history "Hidden Arcana reveals that the "black" orb (lime when lit up) is Mordremoth and the dark green is Zhaitan." Can you point to where this is revealed? All other signs, including the Infinite Coil Reactor where each zone is labeled with a color that matches one of the orbs and contains enemies/terrain related to a specific dragon, and the fact that it is the green orb that "takes over" and spreads plant stuff all over the screen at the end of that cinematic, would suggest that the black is Zhaitan and the green is Mordremoth, not the other way around. Unless you and I are seeing the orbs' colors slightly differently. I don't mean to be hostile, I'm just confused and whatever evidence you have might help. 20:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The ceiling diagram with the depiction of The All in the main library. when you go into the room with the circular stacks, look up and you'll see that diagram. There is a Priory Historian in the room that explains it, which is documented here (important part: "No. I have a question about the ceiling. What is that image?" "That's a map of the All. I like to think of them as spirit realms. That's Tyria in the middle. All those other circles are spheres of influence and powerful magic." "What about the letters? Are those..." "Yeah. First letter of each dragon's name."). It gives the first letter of the Elder Dragons in relation to the orbs seen in the cinematic. Where the 'black' (lime) orb was, was M; while where the dark green orb was, was Z. This was a *HUGE* discussion during the trailer for E5 in the lore community because it basically flipped the entire understanding of the cinematic - as with those two flipped, sans the DSD, the order of orb lighting to ED waking matched 100%; and the DSD was never fully confirmed in the first place (just super heavily implied).
And a correction: The green orb does not spread "plant stuff" - it spread darkness (blackness) while turning the central orb (the world of Tyria) green. By looking at what's spread, that actually fits the Infinite Coil Reactor more with Zone Black.
Arguably, in that cinematic, there is no black orb. Because it lights up lime. Which matches certain Mordrem effects like the Vine Chamber and Mordrem Lurcher's lime glow. While dark green has always been linked to death-based groups (Grenth, necromancers) rather than plants/nature-based groups (rangers, melandru) which were always a more lighter green. Konig 20:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Clarification of "lime green" vs "dark green" (the 2nd bullet point under Notes)[edit]

I've been watching the Omadd's Machine Cinematic again, and it seems to me that Zhaitan's orb (the 4th to light up) is of a lighter shade of green than Mordremoth's orb (the 6th and last one to light up). Does that mean that the terms "lime" green and "dark" green should be swapped?
Also, the cinematic concludes with Zhaitan's orb crashing back into the middle and causing a small "explosion" of its color. What does that signify? I think it's most probably Zhaitan's death. -- 11:35, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The sixth orb is most definitely lime in color. It's a yellow-green. The fourth one is just green. Konig 19:24, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Image in The Way Forward story part[edit]

I hightly doubt if that dragon image is realy DSD. Like if you watch it carefuly (and don’t let your fantasy act like crazy durning that time) you can clearly see that the image is from dark green triangle (usually conected to Zhaitan). However the dragon isn’t probably Zhaitan. If you compare all already seen Elder Dragons you will notice that the most similar looking dragon is Kralkatorrik (which makes sense; the image is from PoF expansion and the dragon seems to be purple - like the crystal dragon). It could be Jormag too, however Kralk is probably more closer looking + we have never seen Jormag) If you count the fact that the dragon isn’t much underwater looking you can very easily figure out that chances this is the Deep Sea Dragon are drasticaly low. According to this I require deep inspection to identify the dragon in the image. If you won’t be able to submit direct evidence from the game itself or at least some trustworthy official source confirming it, it will be nothing but a very wild speculation. In that case I (or someone else looking for trustworthiness of the wiki) will be forced to hide the image from DSD page until it will be clear what dragon it is. We can’t allow misleading or untrue informations appear on the wiki. I think two weeks should be enought to find the proof. Anomalous (talk) 00:41, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I actually studied the cinematic quite a bit before putting that image up.
  1. While The Machine and Elder Druid Protection depicts the All with the colors of yellow-green (Mordremoth), dark green (Zhaitan), red-orange (Primordus), white (Jormag), purple (Kralkatorrik), and dark blue (DSD), The Way Forward's colors are (respectively) yellow, light green, orange, white, purple, and light blue.
  2. The shot just before the dragon depiction zooms in on the green triangle. This is true. However, when it pulls out, it is from the **blue** triangle.
  3. The shot itself shows various bubbles and soot, similar to being underwater with dirt kicked up in the water.
  4. The image may begin purple-ish as it fades in, but once the fade in effect ends it's clearly blue, before becoming said blue triangle.
  5. The dragon depicted is unlike any dragon we see, as it has tusks on its right side of the mouth (visually our left). It is not a hammerhead shark shape like Kralkatorrik, nor does it lack a jaw like Zhaitan, lacks the nose and jaw that is iconic to Mordremoth, and certainly not a massive underjaw like Primordus. It also does not have the silhouette of Jormag, seen in the norn intro, on emblems depicting Jormag or on his totems. This leaves just the DSD.
While there is a chance they won't model the Jormag after those three depictions just as Zhaitan was decently different from the various pre-Arah used in the PS, Zhaitan still retained the rough silhouette of that art (particularly the horns and nose). And while there's a chance they won't model the DSD after this in the end, all evidence points to this being of the DSD, IMHO.
I'm also doubtful that it's Kralkatorrik - nothing really shows it to be Kralkatorrik, from the triangles to the contents of the image.
The main thing being the blue hue of the image, and it zooming out to depict the blue triangle. Konig (talk) 01:06, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
For the sake of argument and clarity, I reworded the caption of the image. Konig (talk) 01:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
I must admit that building a evidence on blue exiting triangle or blue background is a bit... elusive. Like you could now say that Aurene is champion of DSD because she is blue (I must praise myself for such a good joke). However the fact the dragon looks like nothing we have ever seen gives DSD some chances, but I still don’t see any bubbles there nor any water itself. It is just a blank blue background for me. However the text you added is evasive enough to be absolutely clear that noone knows if this is DSD or not. And that is enough for me now. I don’t know about others but I am fine with this solution. Also, I noticed that the image is more clear looking in some parts of that cinematic, so I will probably try to update it. Anomalous (talk) 10:25, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry but how is "tying it to blue is elusive" when the DSD is explicitly tied to the blue portion of The All? Like you said about Zhaitan being tied to the dark green. Then you create a strawman argument along the lines "anything blue and draconic is therefore tied to the DSD" but that's nothing even remotely close to what I said.
As for the water... honestly, it's everything that's not the dragon itself which looks like underwater details to me. Konig (talk) 13:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
It was ment more like a joke than an argument. However I still think this doesn’t have to be DSD. As for the blue colour, yes, DSD has usually the blue spectrum, but the dragon itself is purple and it could be just a random background or something else which is usually blue too (like Ley energy, for example - you have seen that blue magic comming from Balthazar durning PoF ending, didn’t you?). So I think the blue doesn’t need to be refering to DSD all the time. And I noticed that later the blue triangle was acting as the top of some pyramid. And tell me, what would do a triangle of a water dragon at the top of a pyramid in the desert? Anomalous (talk) 15:40, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


Zhaitan's name is similar to 'Shaitan' or Satan, and Mordremoth is Mordre-, which, in Latin, is death, and -moth. One example of using the affix -moth is in 'behemoth'. A behemoth is a large gigantic monster. So Mordre-moth would mean 'gigantic monster of death'. Following that logic, I looked up a Latin dictionary and came up with a name for this sea dragon - Maretimor, which means 'sea terror'. It would require that the known first letter 'S' is wrong, but lots of people think that's wrong anyway. What do you think? The preceding unsigned comment was added by TiffanySmith.8216 (talk) at 19:08, 13 July 2018‎ (UTC).

I mean, it's speculation and the wiki doesn't list speculation under normal circumstances. Also, I don't think that they'd reuse the "mor" particle. They'd probably come up with a new name, kinda like how Jormag and Primordus don't have much in common with their names.
Regardless, Maretimor is a cool name ^^ --Imry 21:56, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
If Mordremoth and Zhaitan were switched with their respective powers (which would mean a change in story involvement too as a result) I would agree with you, as "giant death monster" works great for a dragon who's domain is death. However, Mordremoth's domain is the mind and plants(which I associate more with life then death), so it doesn't fit. As a result of that, I think looking up Latin for possible hints to the deep sea dragon's name is a bit too easy, people probably would have figured it out by now. I also agree with Imry, reusing letter combinations in the name would make it too digimon-like, and neither Kralkatorrik or Zhaitan use the letters "mor" in any way. I think that there is no set name yet, and I'm pretty content calling him Steve. - Doodleplex 22:26, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
While you could be right about the -moth affix in Mordremoth's name, the Mordre- part most likely comes from the character Mordred from Arthurian Legends. This seems more likely considering the general Sylvari association with Arthur and Mordred's theme of betrayal. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doctor Refrence (talkcontribs).
Kralkatorrik seems likely inspired by either the volcano Krakatoa, or the common "text sound effect" for thunder used in comics (krak-a-thoom). Jormag is 100% based off the nordic mythological world serpent, Jormungandr. Shaitan is Islamic. Even though Primordus has roots in Latin and Mordremoth can be argued to be Latin (I agree with the Mordred relation, given both Mordrem being one letter off and the heavy Arthurian influence and British accenting in sylvari), to assume the sixth is as well seems silly since every other seems to not be. A reference to Scylla is most likely for the DSD's name, tying it to a sixth origin than the others. Konig (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Order of awakening[edit]

This article was recently edited to state definitively that the DSD was the second dragon to awaken. From looking at the provided references, it appears that this edit combined material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. On the other hand, The Art of Guild Wars 2 explicitly states that, "A hundred and fifty years ago, the second of the great dragons awakened in the far north, driving the norn into the southern Shiverpeaks. Some creatures - and norn - were not lucky enough to escape the dragon, and became corrupted by its icy power. We foreshadowed this in Guild Wars: Eye of the North, but it got better and better in concept art for Guild Wars 2." For this reason, I have reverted this paragraph back to its original wording. Santax (talk · contribs) 12:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Having taken a look at the sources supporting DSD as the second dragon to wake, I think it actually supports the conclusion quite well. The diagram of The All on the Priory's ceiling tells us the dragons' locations within it, and this cutscene from The Machine again shows us the dragons positions within the All (confirmed via dialogue in which the Commander says she "saw a dragon"). I don't think it was explicitly stated anywhere that the order in which the orbs light up is the same order that the dragons awoke, but it's a reasonable assumption to make imo, since Primordus is first and Mordremoth is last. In which case, DSD was second, and Jormag third. This is of course contradictory with The Art of Guild Wars 2, but this wouldn't be the first time ANet contradicted themselves.
My opinion is that in-game sources trump external sources that predate release, though both are valuable. I also think that our duty as a wiki is to help readers easily access information that allows them to draw their own conclusions. Therefore I think we should mention both. One way of doing it would be to say "DSD was the second to awaken, though the effects of this were not felt until after Jormag awoke." (A nice read, but relies on assumptions again, which is less than ideal.) Another is to just say "It's believed that DSD woke second because of sources A+B, though source C suggests it woke later." (Uglier, but true.) —Idris User Idris signature.png 17:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I actually found an in-game source this morning which explicitly states that Jormag was the second Elder Dragon to awaken: this Jormag exposition fairy in Hoelbrak. I think that is more compelling than the colour of some orbs, although I do agree that the assumption that the order in which the orbs light up is the same order that the dragons wake up is a reasonable and noteworthy one. The article actually discusses the orbs in the notes section already, which is fine - what I object to is the article confidently stating that these two sources say that DSD was the second dragon to awaken, when they say no such thing. I think it's fine to make simple and uncontroversial inferences from sources, but for more complicated matters the wiki isn't really an appropriate place for theorycrafting (this is a lesson I have learned the hard way over many years). And I also think that for the wiki to be considered reliable, if a reference is placed next to a statement, the reference better support that statement.
I strongly believe that the article shouldn't make a definitive statement of "the deep sea dragon was second to awaken this cycle", as while it is possible that this is the case, there are also multiple reliable sources explicitly saying otherwise. But perhaps I could expand the note about the order of the orbs lighting up, or move it into the main body of the article? Santax (talk · contribs) 19:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with everything you say here. Nice find on that ingame source, btw! I think that makes a much stronger case for a line like "DSD was the second to awaken, though the effects of this were not felt until after Jormag awoke" -- Thyrie even admits that the norn aren't certain Jormag was second, just that it looks like he was according to their knowledge. —Idris User Idris signature.png 20:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I've edited the article in an attempt to make sure that both perspectives are fairly represented. In explaining the theory that the DSD was the second dragon to awaken, I've broken my own rule of not having extended discussions of evidence and sources (as opposed to a "just the facts" approach) as I felt that it was important to do so in order to give that perspective a fair shake. Santax (talk · contribs) 21:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)