Talk:List of thief skills

Off hand sword

Someone please point me to the article that confirms off hand swords? Chriskang 22:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Doh, you're true, nothing announed it... (my bad) Lytalm

Again, someone please show me where it was stated... Aqua (T|C) 02:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Shew changed it twice. I asked him for source. Chriskang 03:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see your discussion here. source-- Shew 03:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

If you are referring to the "Swords" video, I hope you realize that the off hand weapon there is a pistol, not a sword. Aqua (T|C) 03:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I realized that, but the article itself made it sound like swords could be dual-wielded. However, this article does confirm otherwise.-- Shew 03:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Skill icon

Can we post the skill icon even if there's the little number in the bottom of the image? Or we should wait for a clear image? Lytalm

We use the highest quality available. Therefore, even if it has the number, and its not replacing a higher quality image, feel free to upload it. Aqua (T|C) 22:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok! Thanks for the answer.Lytalm 23:30, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

From where are all this icons? I can't find them on the videos. Lokheit 00:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Try these videos. Chriskang 00:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! Lokheit 00:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are some icons in high resolution if somebody wants to cut them out and add them. | Corvus 22:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Third skills

We need to make an part for weapon combo third skills, as in the human thief video (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/03/arenanet-unveils-new-profession-and-norn-starting-area-for-guild/ , later in the second after the norn portion) they state that the third weapon skill depends on your weapon combination (ex-> pistol+pistol=unload) ~ Reez 01:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

and pistol main hand + dagger off hand = shadow shot-- Shew 02:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Makes presentation much more complicated. We should maybe use a 2-dimensions table? With main hand weapons for rows, off hand weapons for columns and the skill where they cross? Chriskang 02:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

<sarcasm> Who needs discussion these days? </sarcasm> But seriously, what do you think of my design? Aqua (T|C) 02:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks good, added Sword row, though. (Unless those aren't equippable in the off-hand, in which case: derp) --Sirrush 03:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

So just to clarify, the third weapon slot is determined by the combination of what weapon is held in each hand? And they don't have to be the same weapon?(Xu Davella 02:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC))

And is this unique to the thief profession? Or is that unconfirmed? (Xu Davella (02:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC))

Yes on both accounts. Concerning the latter it's obviously "as far as we know". Some unrevealed profession might utilize this mechanic as well (although I find that unlikely). --Sirrush 03:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

3rd healing skill

Anyone got a clue with what is the 3rd thief healing skill, which heals you and give you stealth (for few second?)? I saw it in Massively 2nd video ([1]), but the video quality is really bad, so I can't see what is the icon or the description when I stop the video where we see the pop up box of the skill. Maybe they say it but I didn't hear it, or is there a better quality video? [Edit : I must be tired, I forget to sign my post tonight :P] Lytalm

Well, we can always deduce the name. Since many Guild Wars 2 skills uses names from GW1, we can start here. It stealths your character, so it may be an assassin Shadow Art skill. Based on the screen, the looks like Shadow Refuge. This is based mainly because the second word looks like it has a 'g' toward the end. Lightblade 06:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

No chains?

It seems like the thief is replacing the ability to do chains with the first melee weapon with the ability to do dual skills depending on the combination of weapons. The dagger 1st slot skill doesn't change, neither do the sword 1st slot. Lokheit 10:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any slot 1 sword skills yet, so...? Also, daggers are known not to chain skill chain (afaik, it was stated somewhere). - Infinite - talk 10:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The video we had didn't give the information about every weapon skill, we can know what they do approximatly, but we don't have the description or the name. Lytalm 12:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

In the videos from where the icons have been taken, it's clearly shown how they use the first skills of the bars and this skills don't change after that. On a side note, this skills don't seem to comsume intiative. Lokheit 13:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Source with main hand sword skills being used? - Infinite - talk 13:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: NVM, found it. Indeed, no chains-skills. - Infinite - talk 13:50, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, in this video the guardian 1st sword skill doesn't change but the animation for the second attack is clearly different and we know that the guardian has chain attacks. Maybe I was wrong with my assumption and what happen is that they didn't implement the icons or animations for the other attacks of thief's chains. Lokheit 12:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The guardian skill could just be a 2 hit skill everytime. --hexal 15:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

A warrior in gw1 has at least 3 different attack animations on attacks, it doesn't really prove anything. - Infinite - talk 17:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

But it's the same down sweep and horizontal cut every single time he uses it. And from what we've seen each skill only has one animation. --hexal 18:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh I thought this was about thief skills. My bad. :P - Infinite - talk 18:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: By the way, we haven't seen this on auto-attack mode yet. It may change animations, but I can't recall footage of such changes. - Infinite - talk 18:45, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Remember

A main-hand weapon goes into the main hand, an off-hand weapon goes into the off hand and a two-handed weapon goes into both hands. - Infinite - talk 18:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The current color...

...Is rather ugly : P Couldn't we use something like a really dark gray as the darker color and a lighter copper red for the cells? Erasculio 19:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Gaaaah! I wanted to free up gray completely for the common colours... :< - Infinite - talk 19:10, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The thief feels more strongly linked to gray than to red, though... Maybe we could use a really dark gray for the thief and a lighter, softer gray for the common colors? Since we have seen ArenaNet using green for both rangers and necromancers, it wouldn't be completely uncalled for. Erasculio 19:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The issue with dark grey (and generally dark colours) is the fact that links become hard to read (which is why I went from rather dark to this kind of bright initially). - Infinite - talk 19:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The official site uses a dark purple. Chriskang 19:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Which is what I based the current colours on. That purple is much to dark. - Infinite - talk 19:23, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

All colors on the official site are meant to be used as background for white text. If you want to use them with black text, you have to make them lighter, of course. That's actually what we did for all the other professions. Chriskang 19:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

We aren't really following the website colors for any profession. #903B24 (the elementalist website color) isn't just a darker version of #D43 (the color we're using), it's a different color entirely. If anything, we are using colors more similar to the wallpapers, and the thief wallpaper is basically black and gray. Erasculio 19:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

That is simply not viable with the common colours. I think this is fine as it is now. - Infinite - talk 19:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

It's ugly... And not really that representative of thieves. I'm not that worried with common colors; couldn't we change them, instead? We are not going to have too many sources of common skills anyway - only downed skills (which are all red) and environmental weapons, which could have their own color. Erasculio 19:54, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Well ugly != practical. It's different enough from greyscale and different enough from elementalist colours. The common colours are red with black and grey. Since red is the elementalist, the greyscale should be reserved for common, no? The current profession colours (all of them) aren't actually based on the wallpapers either. - Infinite - talk 19:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

...It's LIVER coloured. Zolann The Irreverent 20:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the current color is far from appropriate. 1. It may conflict the possible Mesmer class, which the color violot is represented, if it exists. It'll lead to some confusions. 2. According to the official, it's more black/dark crimson rather than the current color. Glastium 20:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

What it was before, deemed to dark. - Infinite - talk 20:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I've got a question

Are these the ONLY skills? or will there be different one? For instance, can my dual attack be switched out for another dual attack? (may be a dumb question, but skillbar customization has always been my favorite part of guild wars, and i don't know if i'd buy gw2 if it doesnt have skillbar customization... I know that your weapons determine your skill bar, but will there be more than one dual attack, main hand attack etc. || DarkMugen 15:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The weapons in your hands determine your first five skills. I.E. if you're currently wielding a pair of daggers, you'll have Twisting Fang, Backstab, Leaping Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger, and Cloak and Dagger in yer first five slots, end of progression. Skillbar customization a'la GW1 applies only to the back half of the skillbar. What ArenaNet did instead of letting you swap weapon skills themselves out was give us the traits system, so that you can add different effects onto the skills and make the same five skills act in different ways. Example being that you could focus on your Backstab skill's power and heavily increase the damage you do when behind an enemy, or with the same trait slots you could equip Twisting Fang to deal more conditions more reliably instead. Whether that particular change is for better or worse...well, we'll figure it out when the game ships.

I agree. It seems the Thief has a very limited amount of skill compared to the other classes. Warrior has 39 skills, and elementalist has 60! Ranger has 29, Thief only has 21 (actually necro only has 20 too). I would love to change some of the weapon skills, although I love Death Blossum, I could see getting tired of that. All classes will have traits that change thier skills, so why don't they have the same variety of skills to choose from? VowNyx

I like the looks of the Theif in its current form, but I do agree that it could do with more skills or weapons to choose from. The same goes for some other classes. I think dual swords would be very nice and I don't see why the Theif cannot have sniping style Rifle skills, and as they are all about stealth a sniper would make sense. But if this is all we get then so be it, I will still have fun stealing weapons from other classes to make up for it :) - Rin Aki 15:29, 26 May 2011 (GMT)

The thief has access to the most skills of all professions thanks to its unique mechanic; Steal. - Infinite - talk 14:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Even aside from that, the game is not out yet, and not all skills have been announced (I assume). --ஸ Kyoshi 17:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Also remember cross-profession combos and how skills react differently in the environment as well. --Xu Davella 18:56, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Slot 1 Shortbow skill

Missing shortbow skill is Trick Shot : Bounce an arrow off multiple foes. Seen in this video around 39 minutes http://www.guildwars2live.com/?ondemand=pla_3a51c406-d914-4947-8d79-6c83e4a67cc6 24.238.113.218 18:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I personally still think that the Thief is lacking in weapon combos. Its seem the other "martial" classes have larger combos. Course, there is the steal mechanic, but I"m not sure I'm willing to rely on that yet. Throwing in another offhand (say maybe the sword XD) would hopefully fix this. (and yes, I also REALLY want to see Thieves dual-wield swords)--Will Greyhawk 07:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

No promises on dual swords, but from what is speculated is that there will be more skills. As for combos, the thief specifically, can essentially make their own combos. It all depends on the synergy and initiative of course. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] 20:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

No dual swords at all. --ஸ Kyoshi 21:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Knew I saw it somewhere. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] 21:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

So a light armor Mesmer can wield dual swords, but a medium armor thief cannot? so lame...24.8.249.129 23:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Underwater skills

1. These skills really don't use initiative? That's the "thief" gameplay style, why would they remove a thief's ability to fight that way?
2. Piercing Shot goes to the old warrior skill, not the new thief underwater skill. That's not its icon or anything, is it... Do we have the actual skill to go there?

~~ Kiomadoushi 18:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

According to this post initiative doesn't work underwater, hence the energy costs and cooldowns. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/skill-compendium-mk-ii-t7320.html?p=768428#post768428 --VowNyx 21:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Missing Skill

On June 10, 2011 in the Tap-Repeatedly Interview, Jon Peters said, "Thieves have a skill called smokewall that they can throw up and block arrows"--Enda - talk 00:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

It could be a utility skill, as they're talking about traps, Blinding Powder, and thief support in general. It's not very recent interview, though, as it predates recent demos. Mediggo 08:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Downed

Based off of some vids from TotalHalibut when he played Thief, smoke bomb is actually the second downed skill, with trail of knives moving to slot 3. Don't really have the technical skills to change it or anything :/ 192.122.237.11

Thanks for information, I made the change. It was just a matter of copypasting this time. :P Mediggo 13:18, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't mean I wouldn't have messed it up royally lol 192.122.237.11

Nothing extremely harmful nor irreversible, I'm sure. :p Mediggo 13:52, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Stealth skills

"The first skill for every weapon now has a skill that replaces it while the thief is in stealth." So they still have five usual weapon skills, and the first weapon skill is only replaced while in stealth. Not sure if that was clear, but the list looks a bit funny atm, stealth skills having replaced #1 weapon skills entirely... Mediggo 09:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

So you're looking more towards putting the stealth skill next to the first skill slot? --Xu Davella 09:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe more like warrior's skill list instead? Just like those rows with unknown' stealth skill. Mediggo 10:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Display Initiative

I think it would be a good idea to show the initiative cost next to each weapon skill, it's rather cumbersome to view each page and back and it's certainly relative information to a thief Konvay the Conveyer 23:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

See initiative. Aqua (T|C) 23:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Dual Skills

In order to show the information of this skills like we do with the others, what if instead of having them on a separate section we put them with the skills of the corresponding main hand weapon, adding "(with Dagger)", "(with Pistol)" or "(with no off-hand)")? Not only will it allow us to add the skill descriptions, but the UI in-game seems to follow a similar system. Dkgn 17:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow. This way is super confusing. I vote we change it back. I do see that now we have a unique skill if we only have the main hand weapon equipped. how about we do this, for example "Main Hand dagger: skill 1,2,3" like all the other pages, then have a section for duel skills like we used to? --Moto Saxon 04:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Confuzzled by new setup

The new setup for these skills is far more confussing than necessary. Teva 11:00, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree, I don't understand why the setup has been changed at all, it was alot easier to get an overview of the skills before (goes for all professions) Symphy 18:18, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion for the new tables is here. •••Mora 18:23, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Damage Listings

The damage amounts shown for each skill aren't very useful if we don't know the stats associated with them. Could we please quote the level, power, or weapon damage used? -Jorizen 15:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Please follow the question mark after "In-game description" on every skill. —Dr Ishmael 16:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Misleading Table names

The title of the tables for the weapon skills are misleading.

• First the "main hand only" implies that the theif can only main hand swords, which is not the case, since theives can "main hand only" daggers and pistols too.
• Second, the "dual wield" table implies that daggers and pistols are for dual wielding only, when in fact, a theif can "main hand only" daggers and pistol too.
• Third, the "with offhand pistol" and "with offhand dagger" for the sword does not display the rest of the skills for the off-hand weapon like the other table does, which does not makes sense since having an off-hand means the thief is dual wielding.
• Forth, the skill slot 4 and 5 for both dagger and pistol should be under "in off-hand" instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Vincent III (talk • contribs) at 13:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC).

The section headers use the same semantics as other profession skill tables. Dual wield does not refer to the dual wield skill mechanic available to thieves, but wielding two weapons of the same type.--Relyk ~ talk > 18:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That only answered one thing. If you look at the pistol weapon skills and scroll down to the thief section, it implies that the thief don't have access to skill 4 and 5 when wielding an off-hand dagger, but off-hand pistol does.--Sir Vincent III 18:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Skills 4 and 5 refer to wielding a pistol in off-hand, as it's the article for pistol skills. The first line break before listing dual wield skills for skill 3 must be throwing you off.--Relyk ~ talk > 19:14, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That, and the implication that only the skill 3 changes when wielding an off-hand rather than having access to skill 4 and 5 for that off-hand weapon. It seems that the thief skills doesn't fit with the template used for other professions. I believe that thieves should have a "main hand" (listing skill 3 with no off-hand), "off-hand" and "dual wield" (listing skills 3 for each weapon combo) tables instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Vincent III (talk • contribs).

The table on pistol only lists skills that you use with a pistol. Why would you expect it to list dagger skills? Of course you get skills 4 and 5 with the offhand weapon, but those will be listed on that weapon's page (since one of the available offhands happens to be pistol, the 4/5 skills for pistol are listed in the same table). —Dr Ishmael 19:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That's a lot of explanation when the table should be self-explanatory. Having "with off-hand" on the section rather than "in off-hand" for skills 4 and 5 is misleading since "with" only applies on skill 3, and not skills 4 and 5 --Sir Vincent III 20:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The table labels the skills for skill 3 as Dual wield skill type. You need only understand how the dual wield skill mechanic works for it to be self-explanatory. "with off-hand" is the correct wording when describing dual wield skills.--Relyk ~ talk > 20:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention that's the wording the game itself uses in the Hero panel. —Dr Ishmael 20:16, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

If we are to based it on the Hero panel, then it is a given that the off-hand weapon skills should be in their own separate table to match the in-game display and category. --Sir Vincent III 20:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Please remember that thief isn't the only profession in the game. Our table format for dual-wielded weapons matches the in-game format just fine for other professions. The thief's dual wield skills are a problem that we solved the best way we could at the time. I'm sorry that solution doesn't seem to be appropriate to you, but maybe you could propose a different format? —Dr Ishmael 20:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand that the thief is not the only profession and that it doesn't fit in the template with other professions, but I have mentioned my proposal above. I quote, "It seems that the thief skills doesn't fit with the template used for other professions. I believe that thieves should have a "main hand" (listing skill 3 with no off-hand), "off-hand" and "dual wield" (listing skills 3 for each weapon combo) tables instead."--Sir Vincent III 21:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That would split the dual skills too much from the main-hand skills. Our convention (and the game mostly) has been to tie the first three skills together, so we're trying to keep to that as well as we can. Is there any other way we can say "Hey, you have these two skills all the time as main-hand, this third skill is variable, and finally we have these last two skills when using the weapon as an offhand" that would help you better? --JonTheMon 21:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

But that's the thing, it had to be split since the skill 3 only changes in special circumstances (like equiping an off-hand) and the way it is now, I have to talk to you guys to understand the page, when it should be self-explanatory. --Sir Vincent III 21:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

This ultimately comes down to understanding the skill bar and applying that knowledge to this page with some extra prompts. We've tried to make it a bit more distinct (similar to the distinction for one-handed weapons in main-/off-hand) but that doesn't work for you. What would make it clearer for you that it's one slot that's conditional, but is still part of the first 3 skills? --JonTheMon 13:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Typically, I go to wiki (so as several players I know) to help me understand something from the game where I find in need of more clarification. But when I find the wiki information more confusing than the one in game, then what's the point? Are you then going to tell me that it ultimately comes down to understanding what the wiki is all about and applying that knowledge? I am under the impression that the wiki should be a source of clear information and help player understand the game and its mechanics. I think the problem is that we have placed a burden upon ourselves by forcing the dual skills to be part of the first 3 skills rather than making an exemption for the sake of providing clear information. If we can make an exemption for a "main-hand only" and "off-hand only" tables, why not an exemption for "dual skills only"? The confusion is the bias that "dual wield" meant is to have the same weapon in both hands, and that is the pitfall we fallen into right now. If we set aside the bias, we will find that ANET have a different definition of what "dual wield" means and what "dual skills" or "dual wield skills" are. All I'm asking is to show in a separate table, rather than in the Dual wield skill page, this information on the same page OR atleast provide a distinguishable link to Dual wield skill and only show the main-hand skill in the table and removing the dual skills since the link will handle that information. --Sir Vincent III 17:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

First off, all thief skills will need to be on this page, so they aren't going to be shuffled off to somewhere else with only a link. Second, I was hoping for thoughts on how to make the mechanic more clear in the context of "dual-wield skills are part of the first 3 skills". Third, the dual-wield mechanic is listed and described at the top of the page; is that not clear enough/distinct enough? --JonTheMon 19:08, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

First of, we broke that already by having a Dual wield skill page. Either we use the page thru a link from here or consolidate it into one page. Second, that is the unnecessary burden we have placed upon ourselves -- it doesn't need to be that way since there's another way. Third, you completely missed the point, not what I'm talking about. I was talking about either consolidating the Dual wield skill page with this page or link to it. But I already made my point and I'm just repeating myself now. Kindly review my posts above if you need more clarification. Thank you for your time. --Sir Vincent III 22:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

"Dual Wield" is a skill type, that's why we have a page for it - just like for Shout, Trap, Mantra, etc. (The pagename "Dual wield skills" should probably be fixed to be consistent, but that's a side issue.) There is nothing wrong with documenting skills in multiple locations - every skill type has a page listing all skills of that type, every weapon lists all the weapon skills for that weapon, every profession has a "List of X skills" page to list all skills for that profession. —Dr Ishmael 23:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand why the pages, but the information for the dual wield is in two locations -- this page and in Dual wield skill page. Like I have mentioned, the redundancy is unnecessary and the burden that we are putting on ourselves is by forcing all the skills into one table, when in fact, separating them is the best way -- just like how Dual wield skill is in its own page. Why the need to put the dual wield skill here when they are already in the Dual wield skill page? Having them here only adds to the confusion instead of helping to clarify things. --Sir Vincent III 02:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The skills are on both pages because they are both thief skills and dual-wield skills. That's it. --JonTheMon 15:46, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

So which one is it?

* "all thief skills will need to be on this page, so they aren't going to be shuffled off to somewhere else"

* "The skills are on both pages because they are both thief skills and dual-wield skills"

If both statements are true, then we have outselves a contradiction. --Sir Vincent III 16:54, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

You missed a part of statement one: "with only a link" aka, you can't just say "there are some dual wield skills, but you have to go to this other page." --JonTheMon 17:20, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I think one issue that you're coming across is that we have a certain assumption about your knowledge of main-/off-hand skills. Main-hand are skills 1-3, and off-hand are 4-5. So, with that knowledge, you'd figure out that 4&5 relate to using it as an off-hand. Ultimately, it seems that the issue you're having with the table is that we're using the heavier line dividers in 2 different capacities: one to differentiate between main-/off-hand and one to differentiate the skill 3 for dual skills. It seems pretty clear to me that there are different thoughts there, but it could be made more clear. --JonTheMon 20:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflict) Skills 4/5 are always "in off-hand", they don't need a special note; we use a dividing line between skills 3 and 4 in dual-wield tables to indicate the split between main- and off-hand skills (see List of warrior skills#Dual-wield or Axe). For thieves, skill 3 has to be handled with special notes because it's not a simple main- or off-hand skill, it's a dual wield skill that depends on both the main- and off-hand weapons. That's why it gets notes when nothing else does. —Dr Ishmael 20:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Annotating it as "Dual wield (<weapon>)" might be plausible, it would have the same effect as the "with off-hand <weapon>" label.--Relyk ~ talk > 20:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That Dual Wield table for warrior is misleading also. It implies that you have to dual-wield the same weapon in order to gain access to those skills, when it simply not true. Maybe instead of calling it "dual-wield", call it main hand skills and place all off-hand skills in the "off-hand only" table and remove the "only" instead. For the case of the thief, they will have a "main hand skills", "off-hand skills" like the other profession, but they will have a special table for Dual Wield, since they are the only profession that have access to dual-wield skills. --Sir Vincent III 21:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It might be simple to change our skill table terminology a bit, switching "Dual Wield" (like on warrior) to "Main-hand and off-hand". That would show that it's a combination table for a single weapon (as opposed to weapons with main-hand only and off-hand only or the actual dual wield skills for thief). --JonTheMon 21:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that would make the term "dual-wield" unique to the thieves, because it is unique to the thieves. But to be honest, the weapon skill should have been listed using the Skill bar format with headers which skills are main- and which are off-hand. --Sir Vincent III 22:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Ultimately, you're coming against the current convention of "weapon skills are derived from its weapon" which is ultimately how we organize it. That is why we keep all the pistol skills together and all the dagger skills together. --JonTheMon 13:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand the convention and I am simply informing that it can (or has) mislead people. Besides, the "weapon skills are derived from its weapon" does not apply with thieves since the skill 3 is from the main-hand weapon and the dual skills for skill 3 is triggered by the off-hand weapon. Therefore the dual skill in skill 3 is not directly derived from its weapon. From any other profession, skill 3 is 100% derived from the main-hand weapon, but for thieves the skill 3 is 50/50 derived from main-hand and off-hand -- it's an exemption. --Sir Vincent III 17:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposed change for the skill table

The easiest solution I come up with that provides a better clarification are these;

• Remove the sub-headers "with no offhand", "with offhand dagger", "with offhand pistol" from within the table - this way it will be consistent with other tables like the warrior banners and this also remove the misleading information.
• Under the column "Type", instead of simply stating "Dual Wield", we can state "Dual Wield: Light", "Dual Wield: Dagger", and "Dual Wield: Pistol" - keeping the link to point to Dual wield skill page.
• The "Main hand only" and "Dual-wield" header for the tables should be changed to "One-handed", then combine the tables - weapons that does not provide skill 4 and 5 is clear enough that they can't be place in the off-hand weapon slot. This is consistent with the "offhand only" weapon skills where they only show skill 4 and 5 implying that the weapons can only be placed in the off-hand slot.
• In general, tables with "main hand only" and "offhand only" headers are redundant. If the expectation is for the players to have the fundamental understanding of the skill bar and what skills belong to which hand, then we can combine the tables into one table with "one-handed" header. The skill slot number will take care of distinguishing the main hand, offhand, or both. Weapons with skill 1-3 are obviously main hand only, weapons with skills 4-5 are obviously offhand only, and weapons with skills 1-5 can be placed on either hands.

I strongly believe that this will clear things up. Thank you for your time. --Sir Vincent III 17:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The whole issue of how to arrange the weapon skills was discussed back when we reformatted these skill list pages. Please read that to learn why we chose the structure we did - it even touched on the dual wield skills specifically.

Also, any changes that we make here, unless they only affect the dual wield skills, will have to be made to the other professions' skill lists in order to maintain consistency. If you really want to combine all weapon skills into a single table, take a look at List of warrior skills and imagine what it would look like there. —Dr Ishmael 17:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Please review what I am proposing because I didn't say anything about combining ALL weapon skills. Thank you. --Sir Vincent III 17:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Your third bullet would definitely impact all weapon skills.--Relyk ~ talk > 18:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

How would it impact Two-handed and Aquatic? Using the warrior skills as an example, it's just combining the "dual-wield" and the "offhand only". --Sir Vincent III 18:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm against combining tables simply because it gets rid of one easy and intuitive way to organize the skills. Splitting the weapons based on handed-role gives us a way to space out skills instead of having a couple overwhelming tables. As for dual wield, your proposal seems to complicate the table rather than make it simpler, since you have to determine that you don't get 3 skills (ala chain skills) but instead it's a dual skill based on some other weapon somehow. --JonTheMon 14:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Please go to here to see what I'm proposing. Thank you. --Sir Vincent III 16:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with moving the offhand weapon into the Type field - so I've gone ahead and implemented that. However, I still don't like reorganizing the tables. Since that would affect all skill lists, that discussion should not continue here; we should probably take it to the CP. —Dr Ishmael 20:23, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for opening this to a discussion and I will continue this in the the CP. Thanks. --Sir Vincent III 21:12, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Slot 5 Short Bow Skill

This skill is absolutely useless. It won't shadowstep me to a location that I can clearly walk to without jumpimg. Fix it or replace it.24.8.249.129 23:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Posting bugs reports on the wiki is absolutely useless. No one from Anet reads the wiki. Make a bug report in-game. —Dr Ishmael 00:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Make sure to circle the position you were at and the position you are going to, good luck with the bug report!--Relyk ~ talk < 00:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Initiative as the 4th profession mechanic

Shouldn't that be listed at the top with the other profession mechanics? (steal, stealth attacks, and dual attacks). I would make sense wouldn't it?--216.36.152.178 04:38, 28 February 2014 (UTC)