Talk:Dragon champion

Possible New Champion Of Kralkatorrik

Purely speculation, but The Shatterer strikes me as being the new Champion, if not then certainly a prime candidate of Kralkatorrik.Perhaps this could be added in the notes if it is the general consensus to do so? Darke 11:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Well not really. no.--Neil • 12:31, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I always believed the Shatterer was Glint. Reaper of Scythes** 14:33, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I say hold off on adding the Shatterer definitively for now, as we don't know if it was created simply for the demo. --Sage Talk 17:29, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The Shatterer is a mere leuitenant. -- Konig/talk 21:15, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, "Glint is apparently no longer under his control."? Someone didn't finish the book. :P Changing this to reflect Glint's current status, since we're spoiling. -- KazDoran 00:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The Shatterer is a dragon champion according to the demo. See screenshot. --Multippt 09:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Needed?

Is this page really needed? The category owuld be enough and this page hardly holds more information. And what's with the capitalization? The word is never capitalized in the book. And will the dragons even have champions in GW2? This seems like a hastily made article which may not be necessary one bit. -- Konig/talk 21:15, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion, just the name 'Champion' hints at what their role might be, but does not explain it completely. To make a vague analogy, it would be like if GW1W had only a category for bosses and not a page to explain what they are. I say leave it in, but we should probably leave this up to consensus. --~~Ѧrtѧxϵrxϵs~~ 21:25, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Should be a merge of Category + Information. - Infinite - talk 21:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

That could work. Info about what champions are at the top and then a category linking to each individual article, which is more detailed in itself. --~~Ѧrtѧxϵrxϵs~~ 21:29, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. (Xu Davella 10:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC))

Nornbear?

Where is stated that he is a champion of Jormag and not just a corrupted Norn? I'm just curious. Lokheit 12:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Page 221 of the GW: Edge of Destiny book. "Svanir remained to commune with his newfound lord"..."It stripped him of his human form and made him a champion" Ge4ce-Talk-Contribs 13:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Are the books any good?? I might get them..if they are..:)--Icyyy Blue 13:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a reader at all, but when I heard Ghosts of Ascalon came... I knew I just had to buy it. It is my first English book as well, and I had to say, I enjoyed every single page of it. Though both books have some similar outlines around a group of hero's, it is very interesting to read. It is somehow familiar and adventurous at the same time. You're just wondering where they end up, or if they can actually succeed. Both books will make you wonder at the end; 'What happened to them after?!' Have you read the free chapter of both books? Ge4ce-Talk-Contribs 13:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

No im worried ill get tooo into it xD!--Icyyy Blue 13:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

First one was good, second one made my jaw drop and saliva leak out unintentionally. Translation: it was good. (Xu Davella 15:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC))

Xu is understating, but I'm sure you all get the correct impression. Eive 07:42, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Move Tag

Discuss. Aqua (T|C) 22:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Needs to be singularized and it's not a proper term, thus lowercase (and it's never capitalized in the game). I still don't see a reason to have this but w/e. At least needs to be moved to a more proper page. -- Konig/talk 22:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree (203.46.11.172 22:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC))

Champions & Dragons

Just a mild curiosity, but apparently Kralkatorrik has a taste for creating (assuming he created Glint) based on his own image, as dragons. Primordus kind of did it for the Great Destroyer, but went with a new form for the Destroyer of Life. Both Zaithan and Jormag seem to prefer corrupting/transforming existing creatures (living and dead, respectively). Coincidence, or may we have some insights on their mindset (not using the word "personality" here, as they seem to think in a total inhumane way)? Ahh, lore. :) 95.136.65.35 00:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Kralkatorrik also corrupting living beings, but Zhaitan doesn't (Jormag corrupts both living and dead). I think it's too soon to call coincidence or not, but I don't think it's mindset/preference, rather I think it's the amount of energy they're putting into corrupting/creating things. -- Konig/talk 05:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The Undead Lich

Is it just me or does he not seem like a perfect candidate for the "first known champion of Zhaitan" or atleast better than Morgus Lethe given his "Orr-rigins" and "undead" personality, just my thoughts, or was this explained away in a different spot? -99.247.191.9 07:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

If it was an expansion pack I'd be unsure.

It's a new game, set 250 years into the future. If they rehash the same characters, people will not be amused A F K When Needed 08:47, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't the lich a person who started to follow Abaddon and Abaddon turned him into a lich. I know that he read the scroll that caused the cataclysm, which Abaddon wanted him to use. I think the story is somewhat complete, and the lich is dead. - Giant Nuker 11:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

"the [undead] Lich is dead"

...so? A F K When Needed 12:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

ArenaNet obviously wants to topple WoW's Lich King. Remaking our Lich is the perfect opportunity to do so. We so excited. - Infinite - talk 12:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

They will not likely be bringing back Khilbron - we killed his soul, remember? Either way, all those influenced/changed by the Elder Dragons have had an immense fanaticism for them (exception being Glint because she was passed her childhood phase), and Khilbron never exhibited such. He was always pure Abaddon (or self interest). While he be retcon'd into "his appearance was due to Zhaitan's proximity" but he wouldn't likely ever be credited with being a champion of Zhaitan. -- Konig/talk 15:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The point wasn't to bring him back just that the lore could be corrected, this has nothing to do with bringing him back but look at the champions, like glint for example was the first known champion of Kralkatorrik, would it not be fair to assume the undead Lich is a champion of Zhaitan, he's from Orr (which was raised from the sea by Zhaitan), he's undead and commands a large Army of undead(which we see attacking Kryta in prophecies) he fits the description perfectly for a champion of Zhaitan, and yes, later he was banished to serve abbandon, and subsequently killed, but that's merely after he was killed the first time, before that however it seems likely to me atleast that he was the first known champion of Zhaitan (just to clarify my obviously misinterpreted original post)-99.247.191.9 21:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have one point confused, mister IP. "later he was banished to serve abbandon" this is incorrect (also, it's Abaddon, he wasn't a fan of ABBA). Khilbron was a servant of Abaddon long before the Cataclysm, Khilbron wasn't banished "to serve" him but banished because he served Abaddon. I'm just going to point to my previous statement for why it's unlikely for Khilbron to have been a servant - let alone "champion" - of Zhaitan. -- Konig/talk 05:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

If you couldn't kill undead then those Kryta missions would have been a whole lot harder. (I'm thinking gw1:Unwanted Guests) --ஸ Kyoshi 13:55, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Just go for the source. Oh wait, we did. - Infinite - talk 14:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

You went to locate the source? I imagine you were more successful than myself; I went seeking a challenge. A F K When Needed 18:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Guild Wars 1 <> Challenge. Mutually exclusive, hell yes. - Infinite - talk 18:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Not quite. Some players attempted dungeons using guitars instead of keyboards. A F K When Needed 19:41, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Unnamed Champion under Drakkar Lake

Anyone mind telling me why my edit keeps getting deleted whenever I try to add this one to the list? I know it's a retcon, but its still canon. Professor Shaft 22:44, 9 May 2011 (GMT)

Because it's Jormag lieutenant, not champion. See here 87.97.122.95 21:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

The Shatterer has been referred to as a Champion and as a Lieutenant. The two titles are one in the same in terms of Dragon Servants. Professor Shaft 23:16, 9 May 2011 (GMT)

The creature in Drakkar Lake was *akin* to a lieutenant, which is not the same as it actually being one. - Infinite - talk 22:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Prof, they both seem to mean the same thing (second-in-command or the primary underling, essentially). pling 22:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a pretty weak argument there Infinite, why call it a Lieutenant if it isn't one? Why not just 'an underling'. Seems that ANet just dropped the ball a bit here, so I'm going to go ahead and add it until proven otherwise. Professor Shaft 23:28, 9 May 2011 (GMT)

I will just remain the only person in this conversation who actually reads the source as it stands, rather than going by assumptions. - Infinite - talk 22:36, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

The Shatterer analogy is much more explanatory than simply the word "akin". (And I did read the source. Don't assume! :P) pling 22:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Until we get explicit confirmation stating that the creature was a champion, putting it up is speculation and speculation is not welcomed on main pages. Svanir/the Nornbear was explicitly called Jormag's first champion in EoD, while the creature's merely called a lieutenant. Lieutenant and champion are, in fact, not explicitly the same thing. Champions, by all intents and purposes, appear to merely be the Elder Dragon's strongest general at a given time. You could have a champion without a rank and a champion with a higher rank than lieutenant leaving lieutenant(s) to be non-champions. Again, claiming the creature under Drakkar Lake is a champion is, at this point in time, speculation. Calling the Nornbear the first champion is not. -- Konig/talk 22:56, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

But the Shatterer is champion to Kralk, right? According to the link, the thing under Drakkar's Lake is Jormag's equivalent of the Shatterer. Wouldn't that make him a champion? (Also, there may not be an explicit revert rule, but when there's a revert war, the process is the same - discuss the issue and resolve it, don't keep reverting.) pling 23:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, Champion/General/Lieutenant all seem to refer to the same thing when it comes to the servants of the ED's, and when a creature has already been compared to another Dragon's Champion, most people can make the connection with a little bit of common sense. Professor Shaft 00:16, 9 May 2011 (GMT)

How I view it: Champions are the strongest minion; Lieutenants, Generals, etc. are merely non-dragon terms given to the hierarchy of the dragon's minions and merely represent the same situation as military ranks. That is, a champion will almost always be a ranked minion, but not all ranked minions need to be champions.

@Pling: I reverted it due to the fact that it was still technically speculation (no matter how likely something seems, until it is confirmed it is speculation). Speculation shouldn't be on the main page, especially when being discussed whether it's speculation or not.

Regarding the source: "He's to Jormag what the Shatterer is to Kralkatorrik, something akin to lieutenant." It doesn't really say chammpion. The Shatterer is both a lieutenant and champion. Based on this alone, you'd be pretty right to assume such (assuming=speculation), but there's another (unlinked) post one should take note of: [1] "Konig, the wording of my intervention wasn't meant (first part of the second sentence) to imply that the Drakkar Lake dragon IS a lieutenant, hence the second part of my sentence.

I used the word "lieutenant" because it's the one we (and I) used during the last gamescom for The Shatterer." Seems he is, in fact, not a lieutenant. The term was merely used because that's what was used to describe the Shatterer during Gamescom. The Shatterer's only called a champion through a single event box - keep in mind that the demo was out of date even at the time of Gamescom so that be out of date so we can't be certain that "Drakkar"=The Shatterer equivalent therefore=champion. I'm thinking that the comparison was more intended to be that this guy will be a dynamic event megaboss.

Personally though, I'm still not seeing a need for this page altogether though. All the information on here fits more than perfectly well on the individual Elder Dragons' pages - or, if desired, on the general minion page (Branded, Icebrood, etc.). -- Konig/talk 23:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

This

Is the any confirmation of this (or parts of it) from the developers. Even if there is, it badly needs to be rewritten; it currently reads like it is speculation. Aqua (T|C) 15:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of would be this post which is referenced on the article - specifically "The Drakkar Beast is one of a number of Jormag’s champions gathering power to bring about Jormag’s awakening." There's also a line in Edge of Destiny saying that the Sons of Svanir were feeding Jormag allowing it to awaken sooner, though that's from Eir's point of view. Best I can recall at this moment. Konig/talk 19:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

jormag's champion

looks like its called the claw of jormag and is a giant ice dragon, he lives in frostgorge sound - in this [2] video at 4:40 Getefix 19:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Innumerable champions

As stated during the personal story mission Magic Sucks, all minions of the dragons are imbued with their power. It's very likely that the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan are its champions, although it is never stated, so I added them to the list. Also included mentions of the heroes who slayed Svanir and GD, and also gave credit to Ogden because it's kind of relevant. Mediggo 14:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Feedback 2015/08/12

Isn't the Megadestroyer a dragon champion of Primordus? He certainly has the strength for it as a world boss and he has the ability to summon and command more destroyers. --BuddhaKeks 84.173.4.143 13:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it has been confirmed anywhere in the lore, unlike the others on the list. —Ventriloquist 18:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hard to say because during the event chain the attempts to stabilize the volcano is what makes it 'mega'. One could argue that at that moment it becomes champion level, but again hard to say. Konig 22:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Mouth of Mordremoth

I'm pretty sure that the Mouth of Mordremoth is supposed to be his physical body rather than a champion. Trying to get some clarification from a dev on the forums. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.220.211.124 (talk).

I wouldn't be so fast to call it "his physical body" so much as "a creation for his physical interactions with the world" but it's hard to say. If you can get a clarification that'd be awesome. Konig 03:13, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Several NPCs refer to fighting Mordremoth and "slaying an Elder Dragon" at the end. I'll go look again for specific mentions of this. As for the lore, the way I understand it Mordremoth does in fact have a physical body (the Mouth, which is most likely what we saw at the end of Living Story season 1), but he can keep regrowing it like all his other minions. --Mallas Elerviel (talk) 05:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I think it's supposed to be the same idea as the Mouth of Zhaitan. He was a champion, too, but not his actual body. If we've learned anything about elder dragons, they are gigantic. The Mouth of Mordremoth is huge, but not elder dragon huge.--Lustre Of Havoc 話 21:13, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. The Mouth of Zhaitan was a clearly independent minion while I've seen no indication of the Mouth of Mordremoth being such from what folks have reported. I haven't seen the Mouth of Mordremoth in game yet, but the NPCs do call it Mordremoth. Konig 04:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Faolin

I think this article is about the dragon's appointed champions, not champion level enemies. Faolin was not an appointed dragon champion, just a tool he was using. A pawn, if you will. --Lustre Of Havoc 話 21:13, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. She was obviously very powerful (capable of insta-killing the character during Prized Posession, able to slip past Destiny's Edge members multiple times), and led minions (during the chase). I think this makes her a dragon champion. Besides, Faolain isn't a champion rank once turned into a Mordrem but legendary (or standard in some cases). Konig 04:41, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Aurene

I think both the Commander and Caithe should be on this page. I disagree that being "corrupted" is a prerequisite to being a dragon champion; but even so, Caithe being Branded fulfills this criteria even if she retains her true self. It is similar to what happened to Faolain. As for the commander, they are specifically refered to as "Champion" by Aurene and Glint. --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 04:50, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Being changed by the magic of the ED is 100% a pre-req as is being able to spread it fast. That said, the Commander is called a champion in the sense of a king's champion - that is, a representative of another in battle. The traditional sense of champion, in other words. Different from a dragon champion aka dragon lieutenant that leads armies of minions and spreads corruption.

While I could see the argument for Caithe we only have her as an example so it's very hard to determine if she's akin to a lieutenant or how any minion of Sure he's will be.

On top of all that, the very fact that Aurene os fundamentally different in morality to the other ED is a strong reason to believe that she may not ever have a "dragon lieutenant/champion" in the same sense as the other ED thus any mention of her becomes irrelevant to this article.

TL;DR imo we lack info to properly document anything about Aurene's ED state or relation to roles other ED have or make. Konig (talk) 21:03, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't think you can say so definitively that the Commander is Aurene's champion in the sense of chapmion warfare without an in-game source explicitly backing you up - without that, we just don't know (although my suspicion is that the Commander *is* in some sense an Elder Dragon champion). Similarly, I feel like it is speculative to say that dragon champions *always* lead armies of minions and *always* spread corruption - the truth is we don't have that clear an understanding of the mechanics of Elder Dragons.

I think the best course is to simply note that the commander is repeatedly called Aurene's "champion" in a variety of contexts, but that it is not known whether that means that they are a champion in the same sense of say, the Great Destroyer. As for Caithe, is there any source explicitly calling her a champion? If not I think we're just guessing, so should keep her off the page. –Santax (talk · contribs) 14:23, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Lost Spirits

As Eagle, Ox and Wolverine seem to fit the criteria for being champions, should they be listed here or should we wait for confirmation? Sunlion (talk) 19:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think they're champions, although they do seem to be corrupted. Let's hold off and see if we ever go back to meet the spirits again before adding them in. --04:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)Rognik (talk)

Bangar's status

Just putting this here in case anyone is wondering, Bangar is not on same level as commander, Caithe, Ryland or Braham. He certainly remains as champion and Voice of Jormag, but is otherwise rejected as bonded champion, all but discarded in Pact's custody in an effort to manipulate them, completely overshadowed by strongest champions and fully dominated by Aurene while imprisoned. There is no indication of two-way "bonding" from what I can see, and the one-way connection seems unpleasant. Several characters including Bangar himself refer to his rejected or reduced status. 86.50.89.34 10:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Bangar is a somewhat unique case as is Braham as a champion when compared to the bonded champions Caithe, Ryland, and the Commander. Bangar was willing to become a champion albeit for "wrong" reasons and didn't expect to be turned into a Voice when Jormag didn't consider him as valuable as Ryland; yet, unlike typical Jormag-revering icebrood champions whose minds are altered, he not only retained his individuality but also had free will to criticize Jormag so he doesn't quite fit under the category of normal champions due to his differences. In some ways his case is similar to Honor's Voice but unlike her, he retains his mind and hasn't been reduced to one-track "Hail Jormag!" mode.

We've seen varying levels of champion strength (compare e.g. Tequatl to Labwan the Deceiver for the Risen), and we don't know how "weak" corrupted Bangar would really be if he was allowed to fight. His pre-corrupted self was already pretty strong despite his age, so theoretically Jormag's gift should've made him even stronger, thus likely making him to be on the level of the DRM champion bosses like Tribune Splitgold who had to be fought with a small army of adventurers and skilled heroes. Any champion could be dominated by an Elder Dragon if imprisoned as the dragons' power surpasses the champions by a great magnitude, so that doesn't really tell us much about Bangar's power level. Bangar served a specific purpose so Jormag could attempt to persuade Aurene through him, so Jormag saw some value in him as a tool.

Similarly, Braham's "bond" with Primordus, despite Aurene's insistence, wasn't as pure either as Primordus never cared to build such an intimate connection with a mortal and he was in fact trying to overpower Braham's mind and assimilate him into the destroyer hivemind throughout Braham's servitude, so much so that Braham was no longer fully in control of his actions and could barely speak coherently as opposed to the three bonded champions and Bangar, which made him only a slightly more individualistic minion than the corrupted Stone Summit. As such, categorizing Bangar and Braham is rather tricky as the pair fall somewhere in between bonded and "normal" champions lorewise; at least in Braham's case we have Aurene claiming him to have become a bonded champion despite his differences with the three true bonded champions. So, I can see both sides of the argument as the lore is a bit murky around Bangar and Braham as far as their connection to the Elder Dragons go. :) --Kossage (talk) 14:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)