User talk:Titus The Third/Tyrian Royalty family tree

Duplicate Rurik (fixed Feb 18th 2014)

dunno why I found it absolutely hilarious that you've used a real family tree tool to build the thing ;) I'm sure that you noticed, but Rurik is in twice - do you think the two adjacent heads can be combined? -Chieftain Alex 21:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! :) Using a real family tree tool opened up a bunch of opportunities. You wouldn't believe all the info I can add "behind the scenes", about all kinds of happenings; source references, family photos, linked locations (someone make a GW Google map please :P), etc. :P

And yupp, I noticed. For some odd reason, MyHeritage seem to create a duplicate when marrying (getting engaged) two persons from two existing branches. I might just need to remove their relationship, and add a line between them manually. Thank Dwayna they didn't have kids, then I'd be in real trouble! :D ---- Titus The Third 23:06, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I did think the portrait shapes were familiar, and then I recalled having done one of these for my own tree a long time ago :P (although mine used to bug out on the exporting the file bit.. >.>) Cracking work anyway. -Chieftain Alex 00:20, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

King Roderick (added Feb 24th 2014)

The family tree is FANTASTIC! But it is missing one often overlooked addition. King Roderick is said to have built The Upper City garden alongside Grand Wizard Garren in 1265 AE, as per a Divinity Guide tour. It is likely, due to the fact that King Baede died in 1256 AE, that King Roderick is his eldest son, and possibly the father or grandfather of Queen Jennah.-- Blackvale (talk) 18:18, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Wow, this is great! :) I knew I must have overlooked something!

Thanks for your kind words. I will add him to the tree tomorrow. I guess we should also open up a wiki page for King Roderick (even though it would consist only of 1 or 2 sentances), and I think it could be a good idea to tag all royalty with a new Category:Royalty (or separate categories for Tyrian Royalty, Canthan Royalty, Elonian Royalty). ---- Titus The Third 23:29, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Edits: King Roderick has been added to the family tree and now has his own page on the wiki, and I've also added [[:Category:Tyrian_royalty_(humans)]] to the wiki. ---- Titus The Third 16:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Mazdak the Accursed (corrected Mar 10th 2014)

I am a little bit confused about Mazdak, ref: Talk:Mazdak_the_Accursed. Clearly I've been wrong about his dates of birth and death, and I don't think he ever was king of Kryta. I will edit his profile on the Family Tree accordingly. If anyone knows anything more about him, please help me out by answering me on his talk page :) ---- Titus The Third 16:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Mazdak was from when humanity was still young on the continent of Tyria, so I'm not sure why you claim he was born around 310 AE. He is stated during Dead of Winter to be a "royal son of Orr, who came to these shores so that humans may raise a new nation: Kryta." In Sea of Sorrows novel, it's stated that Kryta was established at war with Orr and Lion's Arch (said in GW1 to be home to an estate of the Doric family) was one of the first settlements; in an interview with Guild Mag here, the devs explain that a prince of Orr had a falling out and established Kryta - one of the lines in relation to this was "There’s a story in another part of the game about, I believe he was the first king of Kryta. The son of Orr, the prince of Orr, who left Orr to settle that part of the mainland." - the only possible story in the game this could refer to would be Mazdak the Accursed, who brought settlers from Orr and was the first lord of the land. We also know from GW1 that King Doric is said to have been a king of Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. And as he says, Mazdak was around when humanity was young ("When the human race was as young as your own, I conquered these lands and named them Kryta!" - though this is an overstatement). Konig 01:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know that "Clearly I've been wrong about his dates of birth and death". I just haven't had time to update the tree yet. It was Soesbee's "I believe he was the first king of Kryta" which initally made me think he was born around 310 AE. Check out Mazdak's talk page to see me go into this in detail.

So, my conclusion is: Mazdak was never a king. He was most likely accursed by Doric himself, and fled to the west of Tyria and - as an outcast - established Kryta sometime before the Exodus. Lion's Arch was "The seat of power in Kryta, and housed the royal palace of King Doric". But how could Doric have a royal palace in Kryta during his lifetime, when it didn't become a kingdom before 358 AE? And yes; Mazdak's (or ArenaNet's) lack of knowledge of the human origins is quite disturbing tbh. Him being a prince, he should've known that humans have been present in Tyria since at least 786 BE. ---- Titus The Third 09:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that nothing said Kryta didn't exist prior to 300 AE. That is when Elona colonized it. It's easily possible they colonized already settled land. It's called conquest and diplomacy (like how the US bought the Louisianan Purchase from France). And it should be noted Tyrians and Canthans didn't know the other existed until 100 BE, so if he was before then - which is entirely possible as humans had been on the continent since 205 BE - then he couldn't have known that humans were around since 786 BE (besides, he's a Risen, Risen are known to be gods-be-damned liars).

I'm not seeing anything that really shows a contradictions in Mazdak, tbh, since there was a contradiction formed from the get go when Prophecies' very beta lore claimed King Doric was king of all three kingdoms but the very first timeline claimed Kryta was colonized in 300 AE. People seem to forget this, and claim that it is a contradiction formed now. In reality, they're fixing the contradiction and in this they show their knowledge of the lore well. Konig 13:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Kryta did for sure exist prior to 300 AE. The first settlements were established by Mazdak, before the Exodus. I am merely pointing out the fact that Kryta wasn't recognized as an independent Kingdom before 358 AE. Thus, I find it unlikely that Mazdak was titled 'king' during his reign (at least by "normal" standards). And, a tad bit strange that Doric had a royal palace there. These two points are of course only speculations from my side. To me it seems that GW1's LA text (Doric's royal palace) is a minor error inherited from the "beta lore", and Soesbee's "first king of Kryta" -statement seems like a minor miss-choice of words ("king" vs "lord") though his function would obviously have been the same as of a king.

Anyhow, apart from my speculations, we seem to agree regarding the overarching lines of lore. Am I right? Titus The Third 14:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Dynasty sectioning (boxes added Mar 10th 2014)

The Sea of Sorrows book mentions that the descendants of Queen Salma can be collectively referred to as the "Salmaic dynasty". Just thought that information might be of interest to you :) --Santax (talk · contribs) 20:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! :) Any type of info related to the Royal Family is of interest, and I totally forgot about this! Need to read all the books again.

I'll try to add this to the family tree. See if I can put the different dynasties in sections of some sort (Thorn dynasty, Salmaic dynasty). Is there any other dynasties we know of? Titus The Third 23:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC) Edit: I've now added boxes for the dynasties. It ain't pretty, but it is informative. Titus The Third 19:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Branches of the Krytan royalty (corrected Apr 26th 2014)

• Edrick would be the son killed in the castle talked about by Wynn, and I think his mother was beheaded on Oswald's birthday (it's ambiguous though, but the way he says it sounds like it's his, not Eddie's).
• Given the above mentioned interview, the Thorn line likely falls from Mazdak's line.
• Salma and Jadon would derive from Oswald's unknown cousin given Wynn's dialogue.

So the line should look like:

• Doric -> Mazdak -> ??? -> Father of Ewan and Oswald Thorn -> [...]
  • (from above ?? after Mazdak) -> Father of Oswald's cousin -> Oswald's Cousin, crowned in roughly 825 AE -> ??? -> King Jadon [...]

Konig 01:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting Konig! You're one of the most lore-knowledged players out there, so this really is an honour!

• Son killed during the castle attack: Yes, you seem to be right. I was misguided by Oswald's wiki page describing a "remaining son". I did a search now for any info on a second son, but couldn't find any, so I'll remove him from the tree.
  • On a side note, this was kinda disappointing to me. I liked the idea of him having a second son (possibly only an infant, born by his last wife) brutally slaughtered during the mob attack. It would certainly add some flavour to the rage and hatred towards Oswald. For me, it added a a very grim - but realistic - touch to the story.
• The beheading of Edrick's mother: Right again, it does appear to be Oswald's birthday, and not Edrick's (source).
  • But again, a little bit disappointing... Just imagine if it was Edrick's birthday. And not any regular birthday, but the actual day he was born. I could imagine a very grim scenario where Oswald grew tired of his wife, but let her live only because of her pregnancy. After all, he must have wanted his legacy to live on. At the very moment of Edricks birth, Oswald takes up his sword and brutally decapitates his wife (while she is literally laying on the bed and making her last push). Just out of the total blue, and in front of all his servants and midwifes. This would be a moment he had longed for over the last 6 months or so. Then he picks up his son, splattered and "forged" in his mothers blood, before he smiles with the same love and affection you can see in any newly-made parent, and whispers his son's name for the first time... "Edrick" (the bloody prince). I'm just saying, that seems extremely poetic in a very grim sort of way.
• Salma and Jadon: I agree that it is highly likely that Jadon derive from Oswald's unknown cousin. But I couldn't read this from Wynn's dialogue. Did I miss anything? Oswald himself does tell us that he and Salma are related (source), which does hints towards that Jadon directly derives from Oswald's cousin. But this would be true even if they were members of two separate branches (two different sons) of King Doric himself.

-- Titus The Third 08:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Just a side note on the scenario you give for Oswald killing Edrick's mother - doubtful. You seem to miss the most important aspect of Oswald's personality: If it isn't funny, you're doing it wrong. Unlike his son - and this is why Edrick's a disappointment to Ozzy - Oswald never kills unless he can make a joke out of it (a joke in his own demented view at least). He isn't some senseless murderer who kills simply for being bored. He'd make Edrick's mother go out with a smile on his face, regardless of how or the reason. So a simple longed-for decapitation just wouldn't do for him - it may for Edrick, but as said, this is why Ozzy views Eddie with disappointment.
• On Jadon derving from Oswald's cousin: "Then we beg Thorn's cousin for forgiveness when he takes the throne." - unless there's some split we simply don't know about, then Oz's cousin took the throne and continued the royal line, which would then lead to Jadon. 16:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• I must admit that you're right about Oswald's personality; my scenario wouldn't really fit in. But I still think it would have added some sort of twisted depth to his character, showing his worst and best sides back-to-back. Nothing would scare me more to see something like that, someone twist so easily from hatred (or rather indifference, I wouldn't think of him being capable of hatred) to love in a millisecond.
• I do agree with your presumption. But it is just a presumption. There's about 200 years between Oswald's cousin and King Jadon, and we really don't know for sure. After all, a split in the royal family branches doesn't seem to be extremely uncommon in Tyria (e.g. Barradin vs Adelbern and the end of the Thorn dynasty). This is also the reason why I haven't branched the Thorns and Jadon directly to Mazdak. This way I'm keeping it "open for all possibilities"; it is simply "unknown". Titus The Third 16:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

It's less of a presumption and more of a logical deduction. Like I said, unless there's another split that we don't know about - which would make Jadon stemming from a line further from royalty than Oswald's cousin at the time, which I might add is VERY rare and therefore unlikely (we don't know how distantly related Adelbern was, though I presume further than mere cousins given Rurik and Althea, but in the Thorn's case it was just to the ruler's cousin which isn't far, so unless it was shortly after said cousin, the likelihood is ever-diminishing) - then it has to be that Jadon stems from Oswald's cousin. Given all known knowledge, this is the case. Barradin vs Adelbern and the Thorn lineage bits are just two out of hundreds of Tyrian situations, both cases was the end of tyrants and rise of heroes/better royalty. Konig 17:07, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again for the input. I really appreciate it. For now though, I choose to keep the family tree as it is - since we do not know this for sure. But as you say, the logical interpretation would indeed be Mazdak > Oswald's cousin > Jadon: so I might change this later. Titus The Third 20:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Missing Orrian Princes (added Apr 27th 2014)

Just realized that you didn't include any of the named Orrian Prince risen we've met in the personal story (sadly, none of the Eyes of Zhaitan get named beyond Reza :/). No order to them or age, but there's Prince Ellasal, Prince Nekandezzar, and Prince Alhazred. Since they're still princes, it's unlikely that Zoran and Reza are descended from any (or them from each other). Konig 19:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't even know of these princes. So thanks for letting me know! :) But there is soooo little information about them :(. I don't even know where to start. I could of course add them as sons (mechanically speaking they would appear as brothers) of a new unknown Orrian branch. However, If I was to make a wild guess, I would best place them as possible brothers of King Reza - since the ghost of Reza seems to be too young to have any sons at this age. Then again, they could just as well have been heirs to the throne prior to 1070 AE, but been murdered before their time came.

Do we know if all the risen originates from the Catacalysm, or if it's possible that some of them lived and died prior to that event? Titus The Third 20:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

P.S. And why do some Orrian humans 'return' as Risen, while others return as Ghosts? I know of course that the Risen have been corrupted by Zhaitan, but why were some of the humans (e.g. Reza) spared from this doom? Titus The Third 21:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) There are a few risen that predate the Cataclysm. Each and every Eye of Zhaitan are kings and queens of Orr. Reza explained that Zhaitan raided the tombs - just like he did with Mazdak (across the sea of sorrows even in that case) to make minions. So you have Orrians who died during the Cataclysm being turned into Risen, and ancient Orrians as well. I believe Alhazred was one such ancient Orrian Prince I believe, given: "Whispers Agent: I saw the sigil of the Orrian royal house — I think they're coming from the tomb of Prince Alhazred." Alhazred was buried. We got nothing for Ellasal, and all we got on Nekandezzar is his weapon, as far as I know. Konig 21:09, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Edit: As for why some return as ghosts - Reza was not spared, as his soul was trapped in the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan (which was made from his body). It seems that the weaker corruption does not entrap souls (such as the case for Romke and crew), while the stronger corruption is capable of even bringing a soul back from the Mists (such as Reza and, specifically for the "back from the Mists" part, the Keeper of the Grenth's Temple as seen in Cathedral of Silence (story). Konig 21:09, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, completely missed the fact that Reza's ghost was set free from corruption.

Anyways; I have no idea on where to place them. So for now I'll let them rest in corrupted peace here on the talk page, if you don't have any other suggestions? Maybe we could go pay them a visit, and see what their ghosts have to say on the matter... :) Titus The Third 21:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)