Talk:Ministry of Purity

I strongly disagree with deletion for one simple reason: Although the Ministry of Purity began in the original Guild Wars, the story surrounding it was a part of Guild Wars Beyond, and was mentioned numerous times to be a direct link with Guild Wars 2. Yes, Cantha is inaccessible in the initial launch of Guild Wars 2, but there will be an expansion to include Cantha, and The Ministry. This page is based on factual information in the world of Tyria, and anyone seeking lore information could benefit from knowing of the Ministry of Purity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.47.29.63 (talk • contribs).

But it's not relevant unless/until we can visit Cantha in GW2 (or MoP NPCs appear in LA or something). Thus, there's no point in having the article here when we can just link to the GWW article. —Dr Ishmael 04:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the organisation even exist to this day. It's pretty unlikely, too, considering how they were in a position of power and that Cantha has been ruled by a tyrannical Emperor Usoku until contact was lost. Mediggo 10:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok then, if this page is really so irrelevant, maybe it should be deleted. But to me it seems a bit pointless when it'll just have to get re-made again in the future. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.192.112.185 (talk • contribs).

We don't know if it will ever be re-made. The information already exists in Guild Wars Wiki, and it's better linked and more relevant to the first game (especially if MoP never makes appearance in GW2), so it makes sense that we link from this wiki to the other when the subject is relevant in GW1 but not in GW2. Also, please sign your comments with four tildes. Mediggo 08:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with deletion. This article holds no additional content that gw1:Ministry of Purity wouldn't have. If this topic becomes relevant in the future then it can be remade in the style of GW2W articles that cover a GW1 topic - by having only the GW2-relevant information, with the GW1-relevant info as footnotes with a GWW link. So even if this article stays and becomes relevant, we'll need to completely overhaul it. And if this article gets deleted and then remade, it'll look nothing like it does now. There's nothing to gain from keeping it, and nothing to lose from deleting it. Konig/talk 03:39, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

So if all you guys want to delete my page so badly, Why is it still here months later? By the time you get around to it, Cantha will be added and you'll have to keep it in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.47.29.63 (talk • contribs) at 17:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC).

Deleted. —Dr Ishmael 17:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

recreation

Dear Santax, why are you creating pages about things that aren't in gw2/novels? -Chieftain Alex 11:37, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

We don't really have any policy on article retention, so the questions I try to ask when deciding what belongs on GW2W are as follows:

1. Is the subject important to the universe of Guild Wars? In this case, the answer is yes, of course.
2. Can the subject be documented on GWW? In this case, the answer is no, because its story continues to develop in a non-trivial way after the end of Guild Wars—we can't document it there because it hasn't "happened" yet. I don't see it as problematic that we document the parts we can't have on GWW (the things that happened "after" Guild Wars) on GW2W.
3. Is it likely to become important to Guild Wars 2 in the future? If we ever go to Cantha, the answer is, once again, yes. If we don't ever go to Cantha, this is still important because it is one of the reasons why.

By these criteria, the article on the Ministry of Purity is no less worthy of inclusion than, say, Emperor Usoku or Palawa Joko, both of whom are covered in far more detail on this wiki with no protest. Guild Wars Beyond was created with the explicit purpose of "setting up" Guild Wars 2, so anything from Beyond that could have a lasting impact should be considered for inclusion on GW2W, imo. —Santax (talk · contribs) 12:11, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I still don't see a requirement.

• "Ministry of Purity" - the events of gw2 happen 250 years after, no reference is made other than the Mark of the Imperial Guard, which just seems like a point for the trivia on that page and nothing else. If they release a Cantha expansion (lol) then recreate the article then if there are references to it ingame or on current ANet blogs.
• "Ashu Yuudachi" - We should have that content on GWW (copy over?), he never appears nor is referenced in gw2. Hes long dead by gw2 time.
• "Xun Rao" - Lol. He doesn't even appear in GW1, definitely not gw2w suitable. Documented on GWW.

Palawa Joko is, to our knowledge and expectations (being undead), still alive (ish). Usoku was referenced in the movement of the world so deserves an article, but hes probably been dead for >100 years too. -Chieftain Alex 12:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

In order, I guess:

• The Ministry of Purity is just as relevant to the post-Guild Wars politics of Cantha as Emperor Usoku. As you noted, Usoku has been probably dead for over a century, but for all we know the Ministry of Purity is still influential today.
• Ashu is far more important to Guild Wars 2 than he ever was to Guild Wars. His appearance in Guild Wars is akin to that of the Pale Tree—almost entirely stage-setting for Guild Wars 2. In Guild Wars he was a child with very little agency of his own. By the time Usoku ascended to the throne, Ashu would have been 60 years old, and for 47 of those years he would have been head of the most powerful group in Cantha. Given the foreshadowing-heavy dialogue in The Final Confrontation (particularly "I can make Cantha whole again"), whatever he ended up doing in those 47 years was extremely important. I wouldn't be surprised if he played a central role in Usoku's rise. And we can't document any of that on GWW.
• The reason that an article on Xun Rao is appropriate on GW2W is exactly because he doesn't appear in Guild Wars. A big deal was made of him, but then he never showed up, or was given any lore or backstory. If and when we ever do find out anything more about him, it'll be in Guild Wars 2. Besides, unlike Reiko he is still very much alive at the end of the Winds of Change storyline, which means he has great potential to influence the world of Guild Wars 2. Having an article on someone just because they were notable and happened to still be alive at the end of Guild Wars isn't unprecented—Jora, Pyre Fierceshot and Vekk are all examples of that. And I'd say that Xun Rao has as strong a case as Pyre (who actually seems to have done a fair bit after Eye of the North), and a stronger one than Vekk or Jora for inclusion.

But yeah, as you say, Usoku has probably been dead for over a century but we still keep an article on him. If we didn't, there'd be nowhere to put any titbits of information we found on him, and then if we ever returned to Cantha it would be a massive pain compiling all of those. That's why it's important we have these articles. But maybe we should be considering these separately—you could put delete tags on the pages, that would hopefully attract more discussion. –Santax (talk · contribs) 15:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Over 1 year ago consensus was reached that this page should be deleted and was deleted. This means that only if there is a good reason this decission should be reverted. The page you created is not of better quality then the the 2013 page. It also doesn't give new facts that would justify a recreation. The discussion was closed and there is no reason to start exchanging the same arguments again. The only valid argument is if content in cantha is annoucned or if a member of the ministry pops up in GW2. As both is not currently the case, the case should remain closed, even if you dissagree with the decission made over a year ago.195.240.63.18 16:01, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

"for all we know the Ministry of Purity is still influential today" That right there is my objection - we DON'T know what's going on in Cantha, thus we can't say whether this is relevant to GW2 or not. —Dr Ishmael 16:34, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

No, we don't. We can guess that the Ministry of Purity are still around, and imo it'd be a good guess, but that almost isn't the point. What we do know is that the Ministry of Purity were around in the interim period between Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, and were an influential force in that time. In fact, the bulk of the Ministry of Purity's existence and the bulk of their influence was in the interim period, and so they are worthy of documentation on GW2W. They are simply more relevant to Guild Wars 2 than they are or were to Guild Wars. We don't know if the Mordant Crescent are still around. The Order of the Sunspears almost certainly aren't. But we still retain articles on those. I think what we need to agree on are a set of actual guidelines for what is and isn't appropriate for inclusion on GW2W.

By contrast, we have an article on Abaddon, who although influential to the overall universe, is long dead and will never have any impact on any Guild Wars 2 storyline, current or future. There's nothing about Abaddon that we can't document on GWW, and everything that character has ever done took place before the end of Guild Wars. If Abaddon is worthy of an article on GW2W, then Ashu Yuudachi sure is. –Santax (talk · contribs) 22:02, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with Santax. Keeping the article for the possibility that it might be relevant later makes more sense than deleting it because it might not be relevant later. And we should document everything about the GW universe on either wiki; if we use GWW for things that are relevant during the original Guild Wars, then we just have GW2W for eveything that comes afterwards. So if we have lore bits that aren’t relevant to GW1, and are also not within GW2 (yet), then putting it on GW2W still makes more sense than putting it on GWW because it can still become relevant for GW2 at some point in the future. And of course, we don’t just want to throw the information away either. poke | talk 02:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any issue with allowing this article to stay, even though it's only slightly related to GW2. Santax's criteria for creating articles is pretty solid as far as preventing GWW from being copied over bit by bit, so it is unlikely that this will establish a pattern of unrelated articles. Psycho Robot (talk) 02:52, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

"if we have lore bits that aren’t relevant to GW1, and are also not within GW2 (yet), then putting it on GW2W still makes more sense" But what "lore bits" are there for this article? Only the assumption that the icon for Mark of the Imperial Guard is significant, which IMO is a pretty weak assumption. —Dr Ishmael 03:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) From what I can tell, the justification is simply have wiklinks to articles on GW2W as "if we ever returned to Cantha it would be a massive pain compiling all of those". There is no additional information we can provide on top of GWW; we aren't throwing any information away as poke aptly phrased it. Saying "Abaddon is worthy of an article on GW2W, then Ashu Yuudachi sure is" makes no sense because Abaddon is referenced directly or indirectly while Ashu is referenced solely by the fact that Cantha still exists. I'm not convinced creating the articles on the wiki provides any advantage to linking to GWW for Cantha-related articles because the amount of work is the same whether done now or when we head back to Cantha. You only give people more work keeping the articles updated on both sites.--Relyk ~ talk < 03:29, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I agree with the deletion of this page. For the "why", it's already been explained quite in detail by those above me. Titus The Third 18:10, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Can we bring it back, now that Cantha is relevant?

Yes, we are bringing it back, after, uh, almost 8 long years. ~Sime 04:01, 14 March 2022 (UTC)