User talk:Konig Des Todes/Archives6

Under the Jade Sea

→ moved from Talk:"Deep Sea dragon"

I think it possibe that the deep dragon could have been sleeping under Cantha's Sea and was later frozen by Shiro's cry. Then when Luxons ventured out on the hardened sea closer the where the dragon lay, one of them became corrupted by the dragons power and enventualy turned into Kanaxai simalerly as Sifhalla, Jora's brother, was transfored by Jormags champion. Just a thought. --Ian8766 19:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

It was Svanir. Sifhalla was a town, not a person, and named after Sif something-I-don't-know-'cause-it-was-translated, a Norn hunter. Anyway, the theory could make sense, I guess… Except for the part that I don't think Kanaxai was formerly human. The nightmare guys are purely demons, IIRC. -Alarielle- 20:11, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so, for multiple reasons. 1) Cantha is cut off from Tyria therefore no knowledge of it would exist on Tyria. 2) During a previous PAX, it was said that the krait and quaggan were forced out of the gw1:Unending Ocean. 3) The recent quaggan blogpost stated that this pushing out happened 50 years prior to the game - which is the approximate timeframe for the DSD's awakening - and also stated that the krait previously lived in the deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean (aka "the deepest waters of the sea").

Conclusion: I believe the DSD is from the deepest portions of the Unending Ocean - which is most likely halfway between Elona and Cantha (east by southeast of the Battle Isles). Konig/talk 22:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Chances are that Bubbles is exactly like Kralkatorrik (please excuse spelling if wrong) and Primordus. Something millions of years ago put them to sleep and now they are waking up. Bubbles fell asleep while he was swimming with the krait. Anet isn't even sure if they are taking us to Cantha yet, so thats 99% out of the question. And, if you want my theory, something in GW1 that the players experienced is waking them up. The discovery of that dwarven tome woke up Primordus, just like Ogden said. He was encase under a mountain, of course it took 250 years! After Primordus, the whole thing cascades. Bubbles is just like the rest, waking up in the aftermath of his destructive brother. Chance are we won't even see him in the original release of GW2. There is no use in speculating any further. He MAY have something to do with Cantha because he is out at sea and not landlocked like the rest (other than Zhaitan), but its probably not possible we will have any lengthy interactions with Bubbles after the initial release. Sorry for IP comment, I forgot my login :P 186.2.144.39 13:26, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The Deep Sea Dragon is like Kralk and Primordus in which that they are all Elder Dragons. And according to Glint (Kralkatorrik's former champion) they are waking up because of emptied bellies. Also, the tome was never read aloud which was supposed to call gw1:the Great Destroyer, not Primordus. And Primordus woke up 50 years post-EotN, not 250; likewise, he didn't wake up during EotN, merely stirred. I don't know what you mean by "the whole thing cascades" as the mountains over where Primordus was are still in tact, if you're talking about the body of water where EotN content was, that was Jormag's doing. And no ED is landlocked - Kralkatorrik flies and Jormag capsized icebergs, indicating being capable of swimming or flying - one of the two. Konig/talk 16:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

or walking.--The Holy Dragons 18:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you make a point about most of that. By the cascade comment I meant that one dragon helps wake up another. I remember a comment about that in Edge of Destiny, but I don't have the book with me right now so I can't verify. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 186.2.144.39 (talk).

Hmmmm, I don't recall EoD saying that the dragons help wake others up. In fact, it's been said that their friendliness to each other is completely unknown. Perhaps your misinterpretting the "signs of an awakening were everywhere" bit which tells of events in Tyria which are similar to when other Elder Dragons woke up (earthquakes, a flood, etc.). Konig/talk 20:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Re-ignition

I remember some developers saying that Glint and Kuunavang were as different from the Elder Dragons as night and day or something, and Glint turned out to be a champion of Kralkatorrik. I don't think it would be too far-fetched for Kuunavang to be one, too, but it's kind of like using the same Retcon[1] twice, which people typically don't like. 198.174.37.44 01:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I dont think it will be DSD under the Jade Sea but the recent Cantha things in GW with the Jade Sea slowly turning back to normal has deffintly got me speculating on what that could lead to. wether or not it is connected to an Elder Dragon i guess time will tell :) would be good to have somethin lurking under there though :) ArthasShadowsong 05:39, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

@198 ip: Rotscale is also put on par to Glint, and that was more recently. It would be quite silly if Kuunavang, Glint, and Rotscale will all turn out to be champions of the dragons. Glint worked out thanks to having the crystal relation previously, Rotscale could be made into Zhaitan's champion but that brings in the question of why he/she/it didn't try to go to Orr (rather than Kryta) in GW1, and Kuunavang shows no connection to the sea (the closest possible dragon being the DSD) but rather stars (the celestial skills). However, this said, I don't think that Glint was planned to be the champion of Kralkatorrik when the Movement of the World was written - in fact, a response from Jeff Grubb (later confirmed) indicates that was not the case (nor was it the case that any dragon but Primordus had champions at that time). So I'm thinking that while Rotscale may be turned into a champion of Zhaitan (or Jormag, considering the original location (Shiverpeaks), and it just died and was risen into an undead), but Kuunavang may not. Konig/talk 06:26, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

This is a little speculation heavy, but remember that Rotscale is guarding a tomb, believed to be a powerful weapon or artifact. Just because Glint is in the desert, as Kralkatorrik is related by being crystal, does not mean Rotscale would have to be in Orr. It is still with undead as Glint is with the sands. Both are still in their elements, separated from the EDs. Perhaps Zhaitan had Rotscale guard the tomb because of something he knew to be inside capable of destroying him, or his undeads, or something else equally powerful.

As for Kuunavang, the Luxons were linked to traveling the Unending Ocean. While her celestial ability may at first seem separate, remember how often the seas are linked to the stars. DSD may be in the Unending Ocean, and Kuunavang followed the Luxons into the Jade Sea before it solidified (possibly sailing right into the Jade Sea from the Unending Ocean, never leaving her home of the water), placing her around the Harvest Temple, then later corrupted by Shiro's corrupting Jade Wind (another raw element of nature, possibly changing her alliances when being so close - the power greatly twisted the seas around the temple, so why not her mind?). When freed, she was neutral, no longer tied to DSD (or Shiro, obviously), and so lacked the knowledge of such a tie before Shiro, or possibly purposely neglected it as it was not relevant.

I'm not saying this is it, or that it has to be like this to fit, but that it is possible to fit. Unmentioned lore can loop and tie without retcon'ing anything, making things work seamlessly. Don't shove it to the side just because it's not as crystal-clear as Glint. ~~ Kiomadoushi 13:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why people are so fond of Cantha. It's not going to be included in initial release. And it might not even return as an expansion or any kind of content. Might as well leave 'em Canthans down there, along with speculation. Mediggo 14:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

@Kio: The "powerful weapon" referred to by the Scribe was actually the green weapon. The tomb itself was the tomb of the Krytan monarchs. For Kuunavang, there's no connection between her and the Luxons other than location, tbh, and it's believed by in-game scholars to be the case, however it was gw1:Margonites who sailed the Unending Ocean (revealed in Nightfall, the following campaign which retcon'd a couple things) - though Luxons may have also done so in the past (to me, this shows a related history of the two people). @Med: I wonder the same thing. Konig/talk 18:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The bow is a drop - you don't specifically loot it from the chest. If it was a tomb of the Krytan monarchs, it would be an artifact from their era too, not a bow made from the boss you just killed. As for lore of the Luxons and Margonites, the two sailed the ocean together, causing mixes in their history of who did what where... But the Luxons formally seceded nearly 470 years before Abaddon gave magic to the Margonites, and the Margonites only ruled the ocean about 180 years or so before then. That's about 300 years that the Luxons were able to freely sail. Once the jade wind was released, the Luxons sailing life made way for living on a solid sea of jade, which is why they aren't out sailing anymore, so its hard to say they didn't sail thousands of years ago, before recorded Margonite history. Nightfall only retconned a small amount of the Luxon's lore. From what they said, there's still plenty of time for the Luxons to have sailed. An Empire Divided states that the Luxons may have come from the Crystal Sea LONG long ago, inhabiting Cantha roughly the same time as the first humans appeared in Tyria, and now land-locked (or jade-locked), cannot return to their home. Kuunavang could have followed them out of the ocean and into Cantha. This attachment to the isolationist continent COULD be why DSD isn't very revealed - it's not planned for release of information until more is told about Cantha. ~~ Kiomadoushi 23:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You seem to fail to realize that the Scribe - the source of the "lore" that Rotscale is protecting treasure - was a literary device used to combine mechanical updates into lore. In other words, whatever treasure is mentioned would be obtainable to players, and at the time greens were still "special." Regarding the Luxon bit - nice speculation. Keep in mind that knowledge of the Margonites was almost completely wiped out, and they became mythical creatures. Scoffed at by scholars. An Empire Divided, written by the devs before Factions was even finalized, would be taking into account this lack of knowledge (or rather, lack of determining the situation). What is stated is merely that scholars have found artifacts in the Crystal Desert believed to be of Luxon - the Margonites, who were also sea-faring people are known to have settled in the Crystal Desert and Elonian coast, yet this one sentence is the sole case of Luxons having been in the Crystal Desert. I find it unlikely that the Luxons were that far north, especially when humanity comes from the south. In fact, I'd argue that the Luxons are in fact the predecessors of the Margonites, and that the Margonites moved north from the Jade Sea while the Luxons did not. Konig/talk 00:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

You guys should really go talk about all this with the writing team or something. Mediggo 01:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The Rotscale bow will never make sense as the treasure in the tomb. How does the bow made from the enemy you just killed manage to make it inside the tomb of monarchs long past? There are years and years separating the events, so its not like the bow magically forms out of Rotscale and appears inside the tomb he was guarding - there HAS to be more than that.
That whole block about Luxon history isn't speculation. It's official lore of the Luxon's history dating back to pre-imperial era. AND I've actually thought of that luxon/margonite tie before! Perhaps they weren't different? It explains the loss of history of margonites. Perhaps the original run-in with Kuunavang corrupted some Luxons' minds, giving them power they never imagined. When kuunavang had forsaken them to chase the other Luxons south into the Jade Sea, the margonite luxons no longer had the powers to feed on and become corrupt manifestations of DSD's power; so they kept to their crystal sea home, and sought more power, eventually turning to the darker magics of Abaddon. Also, the Luxons were noted to have possibly been in the Crystal Sea before humans appeared in Cantha even, having come from an expanse of the Unending Ocean to the east of the world map that we know (sounds like Europe trying to get to India, pushing out the native "Forgotton" in their expanse from south to north, being sea-faring people until that point).
As for signs of an elder dragon's presence or influence, unlike Urgoz, Kanaxai's origins are unknown, and not related to the jade wind's corruption as Urgoz is. What are the chances he could have been a Luxon permanently corrupted by DSD through Kuunavang? Much like the icebrand and dragonbrand, he has strange markings across his skin, and can nearly celestially duplicate parts of his spirit to make clones (the aspects). That leave space for being tied to Kuunavang, who in turn could be tied to DSD...
And Mediggo, that would be nice talking with the story developers about all of these lore loops most don't care about or are too ignorant to even think about existing. There are all these possibilities that will remain speculation considering we'll probably never have a full library of lore of what happened throughout the world of Tyria... It's sad. ~~ Kiomadoushi 05:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"How does the bow made from the enemy you just killed manage to make it inside the tomb of monarchs long past?" Whoever said the "treasure" was inside the tomb? Take note of this - "[...] Rotscale has been seen lately amassing more forces around his tomb [...]" and "Many [...] claim that Rotscale is indeed protecting great treasures [...] the Dragon is protecting a weapon of some sort—potentially one of great value." specifically. Also take note of this and this, two posts of the Scribe calling unique ("green") weapons as "treasures."

Regarding the Luxons: What I meant by "nice speculation" was this: "the two sailed the ocean together, causing mixes in their history of who did what where" and "But the Luxons formally seceded nearly 470 years before Abaddon gave magic to the Margonites" - that is speculation as it states that 1) The Luxons were in the Unending Ocean prior to the Jade Sea, 2) that the two groups knew each others, 3) that the in-game speculation is accurate, and 4) it implies that the Luxons were a sub-group of the Margonites (otherwise there'd be no seceding).

And the rest of your post, outside of the whole "Luxons existed during the pre-Imperial era" is speculation. Yes, they existed as an independant people at that time, but we have no indication that they came from the north (in fact, we have more indication that they came from the south - same with all humans, especially since humans weren't in Elona or Tyria (thus the Crystal Sea) until 205 BE). "the Luxons were noted to have possibly been in the Crystal Sea before humans appeared in Cantha even" Uh... source? An Empire Divided says "more than a thousand years ago" - 1,000 years before 1072 AE is 72 AE, that's 278 years for the Luxons to supposedly be in the Crystal Desert before humans arrived on Tyria (let alone Cantha, which was over 500 years prior). Note that the 278 year time period is also the time in which the Margonites ruled those seas - specifically, they ruled those seas from 175 BE to 0 AE, furthering the support that it's merely a mis-connection, as there'd be some other kind of indication of the Luxons being there). I'd also like to note that Am Empire Divided never uses the words "Unending Ocean" - so the evidence doesn't point to the Luxons being there, but the Crystal Desert. Which also furthers that it's a mis-connection as there should be evidence around the Unending Ocean.

Regarding Kanaxai - there's nothing "celestial" about him. It is my theory that the aspects are just the next stage of corruption that's mentioned by gw1:Dauv Merishahl and gw1:Eurayle; that is, Outcasts become Oni, so I believe that eventually the Oni become aspects. Even if that's not the case, nothing I've seen says that the aspects are his spirit being cloned (if you have a source, please link!). Furthermore, Kanaxai is called a demon and appears to be such by mechanics, as such I'm intended to believe that he was spawned from the Mists like all other demons. Konig/talk 07:26, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

About Kanaxai, sure, that's possible. But the aspects of kanaxai (and then the shadows of kanaxai) are all shown as one with him (as a definition of aspect as "part or feature of"), having complete control over every other lesser shadow demon, directly under his control, and even share all appearances. His self and army of oni are also the only demons not associated with Abaddon, Menzies, or Dhuum, and was originally found in caves beneath the Jade Sea (as Kuunavang was also trapped, though much much closer, so suffered much corruption). Kanaxai makes oni minions by his maddening nightmares seeping into their minds, as the EDs (and their champions, and on) corrupt with their maddening thoughts, images, words, etc. His army of demons also does not follow Shiro's will (oni are not summoned by Shiro, though Shiro'ken are, and Shiro is found with his own brand of creatures), separating him from the dark powers that Kuunavang was corrupted. There's more than just mere coincidence that the things line up like that, even if that's not the hidden truth.

Green weapons are noted as mysteriously appearing from the monsters that hold them. Again, the tomb does not contain the bow made from his wing. It also drops from the dragons found with him (which means you can get the bow without killing Rotscale and getting to the tomb itself). The tomb is still separate, and he was there for a reason. And unless it's to guard this special treasure still unknown, it's that it is his own tomb, and his undead form has been corrupted. But know that even though he's "undead", he's immune to bonus holy damage, which fantasy-lore shows that he is an exceptionally powerful undead - not your everyday skeleton or bone dragon or spirit. Where does THAT power come from?

No, none of that was speculation about the Luxons - that is all-around official lore. The Luxons seceded FROM THE CANTHAN EMPIRE in 48CC, after having made a pact of peace and forming an empire with the others in parts of Cantha in 0CC - 510 years before the exodus of the gods. But humans appeared in Cantha long before then by 276 years (-786DR), settling the northern coast (having come from the seas between Tyria/Elona and Cantha, not from the south). The Luxons are said to have been in the Crystal Sea before arriving in Cantha, in 786 BE. The Margonites did not have control until 175 BE, meaning the Luxons were there first. The history also says more than 1000, meaning that it's hard to date exactly, but it shows that either the Luxons and Margonites have the same history/culture (to find artifacts of one civilization, when they really belong to another), the Margonites stole from the Luxons in the seas as pirates (obtaining valuables belonging to the Luxons), or that the Luxons were there at the same time as a separate nationality. As the Turtle Clan is the most offensive, and Crab Clan is wealthiest, and Serpent Clan is filled with engineers, the Margonites could easily have been a former clan of the Luxons, rulers of sailing prowess. Of course, if they were outcasted, Luxons would not keep a record of them being one-and-the-same and eventually forget there ever was a tie, or just bottle it in out of shame, not telling their descendants, so nobody ever learned. (That last bit about them being a clan is speculation, but their history above was not, its all lore.)

Sources -

An Empire Divided "Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever." their home before Cantha, along with various information on their lifestyles and how they changed.

GW1:Luxon multiple mentions to their pre-canthan history, including sailing the waters between Cantha and Crystal Sea, and even their pre-Canthan disputes with the Kurzicks (so they didn't just "show up" out of nowhere, they all migrated from their original location to Cantha, from somewhere else out in the Unending Ocean, away from Tyria, Elona, and Cantha)

GW1:Canthan Culture To back the Luxon official information

GW1:Timeline You should know most of this, having edited parts of it yourself. (And if it's wrong, it needs deleted as being a mainspace sub-lore article, and not being "official" then... and if it's not wrong, it's all there in plain sight)

~~ Kiomadoushi 16:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC) ps maybe this should be moved?

Regarding the Kanaxai paragraph: Actually, not all demons or demonic entities are tied to Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies - in the Fissure of Woe and Underworld, the enemies are not all related to the big bad three (Aatxes, for instance, are natural inhabitants; those in the Bone Pits are also unrelated to the bad three). Likewise, the only dragon who corrupts via words/thoughts is Jormag, and Jormag alone. To our knowledge at least. Kanaxai predates Shiro so obviously he wouldn't be linked to him, his origins are a complete mystery and there's currently nothing to indicate that he is nothing more than a powerful demon - not all demons will be tied to the three prime evils of GW.

Regarding greens: Again, nothing states that the "treasure" is in the tomb. I provided the very original and sole source talking about the treasure Rotscale guards, and nothing says it's within the tomb - it says that it's a weapon of value (not even a "powerful weapon" that you called it previously). And yes, greens are called treasures by the Scribe: "The Totem Axe: Treasures of the Jungle".

Regarding Rotscale: Yes, he's an exceptional undead - no one is denying this. No, that tomb is not his own - it's explicitly stated to be the tomb of Krytan monarchs. His story is still unknown, but the treasure is the green and it is not his tomb. Maybe he's just drawn there due to the abundant number of corpses.

Regarding the Luxon bit: The 276 years was humanity in Tyria/Elona, not humanity in Cantha. It is never stated that the Luxons were in the Crystal Sea prior to being in Cantha. What you're misinterpreting is speculation of Luxons having once been in the Crystal Sea (the only way this is possible is if a group of Luxons moved north sometime between 205 BE and 1070 AE), and that they come from somewhere "across the sea." You assume that these two separate lines refer to the same event, but it's impossible as humanity on Cantha predates humanity on Tyria.

Regarding your sources: gw1:Luxon's line of the Unending Ocean is incorrect - An Empire Divided only states Crystal Sea, the comment of the Unending Ocean was logical deduction (and a fallacy on my part). gw1:Canthan Culture holds no support for them being in the Unending Ocean, or anything of their past (prior to the Jade Wind). gw1:Timeline - again, nothing indicating the Luxon's origin. The only source you have that indicates anything on Luxons being in the Unending Ocean or Crystal Sea is An Empire Divided, which doesn't say much - just that it's believed in game, prior to the Margonite's return (and thus most knowledge of them returning), that the Luxons were in the Crystal Sea and that they come from across an ocean - this, for all we know, could be to the east, west, or south of Cantha. I think that if they came from the Crystal Sea, it wouldn't be "nameless" (since we know the name). Especially, and here's the kicker that I've stated multiple times, when humanity on Cantha predates humanity on Tyria (continent). In other words, it is literally and figuratively impossible for the Luxons to come from Tyria when they were on Cantha over 580 years prior to when humans were on Tyria.

TL;DR

It is impossible for Luxons to come from the Crystal Sea than go to the Jade Sea because this is the timeline:

205 BE: Humans arrive in Tyria and Elona (thus the Crystal Sea region).Source

462 BE: Luxons succeed from the empire.Source

510 BE-786 BE: Luxons arrive in Cantha (sometime after first human tribes in northern coast, prior to 510 BE). Source

786 BE: Humans arrive in Cantha. Source

The only time Luxons could of been in the Crystal Sea is from 205 BE onward. Konig/talk 20:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify: If the in-game scholars are correct, the only time for the artifacts to appear would be between 205 BE and 21 AE (1,001 years prior to 1022 AE, first printing of An Empire Divided) or 71 AE (1,001 years prior to Factions). Konig/talk 20:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The Luxons didn't necessarily have to have been in the Crystal Sea (though pre-dating human life in elona/tyria, the lands, this sea wouldn't necessarily have a name, and it wouldn't have needed to be the original home). Humans also settled on the northern coast, and some historians say Shing Jea Island first, though those same historians mention that this isn't completely agreed on. But settling from the north of Kaineng City's location, they can't have come from the south, especially if they came from the same place as the others (again, they knew the Kurzicks from before, having disputes from the moment they landed ashore). And the Unending Ocean is the expanse of water between the continents. They can't have traveled even from Continent D, E, F, G, whatever, to C (cantha) without passing through the waters in-between. Naturally, they sailed there if they were sailors, being the waters they used for travel. Where they originally came from doesn't completely matter - what matters is that they went through that area to get to Cantha, from wherever they were, and somehow their seafaring life became confused with the Margonites, known to be around at least similar areas at some point to cause such confusion.

Kanaxai uses the seeping nightmares entering the mind, taking advantage of mere presence, like we know about Elder Dragon(s) capable of doing. And yes, all demons are related to those big three. Aatxes are nightmares, and are in Dhuum's army of entities. Kanaxai, his oni, his aspects and shadows, are all demons, but are in their own separate army (Kanaxai's personal demons) as far as the game has shown us.

"Rumors persist that a powerful and valuable object, perhaps a weapon, lies within the tomb it now guards zealously." Again, the Rotwing bow is alluded to being made from Rotscale's wing, or his accompanying dragons, being obtained from killing them. The object inside the tomb would not be in their immediate possession. Being inside the tomb, it would be inside still after you killed them, until you went to open up the tomb, and take what is inside. He had also been mentioned as being a very old being, one of the oldest on Tyria, specific age unknown, having traveled around quite a bit over the many years - sounds like the sort of thing an ED's champion would do - amassing information on the budding species, growing minions/armies, guarding what its master fears or feels a need to protect. What did the Krytan monarchs request to be buried with? It wouldn't be a bow made from a powerfully undead dragon who did not come to guard the tomb until after the object was placed inside. Yes, that's deduction so technically speculation, but remember that when you eliminate what is clearly false, what remains is the truth (or among remaining options, one must be truth). Eliminate what is clearly false. Example: we know that Rotscale isn't there because of being driven back by the Sylvari. That does not line up (the Sylvari weren't born for a long, long time, and he was there before then), and neither does an object forged in the future being inside a tomb in the past. ~~ Kiomadoushi 05:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the origins of humans: "The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha." Statement by Jeff Grubb. Based on An Empire Divided, I'd argue that the humans came via boat to Cantha from the southeast, arriving on Shing Jea and the northeast coast first, then spreading into the mainland, and then sailing once more further north.

I really cannot see how you come to the conclusion that the Luxons, a human (then nomadic) nation, could humanity entire existence on Tyria/Elona. You're logic is not working out here.

Regarding the Kanaxai bit: again, only Jormag corrupts via the mind (and not via nightmares at that!) Kralkatorrik corrupts with his breath, we don't know how Zhaitan corrupts, and Primordus corrupts the land creating mimicry of creatures (never once shows corruption of a previously-living creature) and thus cannot corrupt minds (as inanimate objects have no minds). And the Aatxes were a mere example - demons are not naturally alligned to the big three, the manual calls them creatures who create chaos so naturally they'd work with the big three who are creating chaos. And Aatxes are natural inhabitans of the Underworld (source), they are only connected to Dhuum via mechanics in that elite areas have two affiliations - one for allied NPCs and one for hostile NPCs - Aatxes do not work for Dhuum (or rather, there's no indication that's the case).

Regarding Rotscale: Ignoring the weapon bit for now since the Scribe was talking of the bow (go through every Scribe article if you wish, it only talks about things players can encounter), where does it mention Rotscale being "very old" - Rotscale was raised by the Stone Summit near the Frost Gate in hopes of attacking Ascalon. Original lore on Rotscale, second lore on Rotscale. Nothing mentions him being very old. The closest thing I can find is "Rotscale is not a new presence on the continent of Tyria." Which is true, Rotscale is from the beta (or was it alpha?).

Finally, where is that quote from? because I cannot find it in the Scribe's post - the sole, to my knowledge, source of non-pre-release (aka potentially fallible) lore. Edit: Oh, I see, you took that from the fan-written words of the GW1 wiki. Originally written by Santax, who has mistyped (aka created potentially incorrect deductions) in the past (no offense to him, he's a great contributor nonetheless). Konig/talk 06:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll give you some credit in there. Since that mission was hidden with beta stuff only (which i wasn't in the beta, i joined around NF's release), I never had knowledge to the stone summit raising Rotscale (which shows his origin). Just the same, an edit that had been on the wiki for a LONG time without anybody pointing out that it was wrong just goes to show that it's important to keep official things official and not place stuff like that on mainspace if its not completely real. I would, if you don't mind, like to see the source that states the tomb is that of Krytan monarchs, to look more into this and see what it says first hand. (It's not that I don't believe you, I just want to see for those holes like it saying that Rotscale is camping that tomb and that he's protecting treasures.) I also think I remember reading something about at one time, that tomb opened to a dungeon, but I can't think of where I read that, if you know what I'm talking about... Anyways, that rules out the whole Zhaitan thing...

Demons. Again, aatxes and other such creatures you mentioned are not demons but nightmares, etc. That means grentches, Margonites and the torment creatures, the Stygians from the domain of anguish, and Kanaxai and his nightmare horde of shadows, aspects, and oni. The NIGHTFALL manuscript called demons spirits made from the mists themselves, but we know how the Margonites are a transformed people. But this was AFTER Kanaxai was already created. Clearly, the demon description isn't absolute, with the Margonites as proof. And Kanaxai corrupts by spreading his nightmares into peoples heads, corrupting them that way. This is similar to the Elder Dragons in that none of that had to do anything magical, just use their nearness. Those who hear Jormag's whispers of madness become branded, not needing to be directly targetted; Kralkatorrik simply flying corrupted everything near him to crystal, branding those beneath. Kanaxai's presence causes his nightmares to seep into their minds, becoming his own minions without needing to specifically do anything.

The Luxons came from the same home as everybody else, or at least very near or sailed near many times (like if they were originally seafaring merchants, and had disputes with the land-dwelling Kurzicks on the coast). I never said THEY populated Tyria/Elona, just that nobody was there at the time of Canthan immigration, so the Crystal Sea would not necessarily have a name. They could have easily sailed into there, then followed into Cantha to the south (remember much of Elona was water at this time, so they didn't necessarily encounter land and know where they were); they could have sailed too far north then sent southward, meeting in Cantha later than the original immigrants. (Or perhaps they saw land, and realized the coordinates were not the ones they were supposed to reach, then turned around. One way or another, it seems they were in the Crystal Sea, or at least knew the Margonites that their cultures could mix enough that the Margonites' presence seemed like the Luxons, which would place the Luxons in that expanse of water to the north of Cantha (possibly up near or in the Crystal sea, or on the waters over Elona). That doesn't mean they stayed there, just that at one point, they were around it. ~~ Kiomadoushi 00:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes things get misinterpreted or incorrectly altered by someone attempting to simplify a paraphrase - or paraphrase a paraphrase. Telephone game and all. When making speculation and debates, its best to try to find the original source of information and not fully rely on the wiki articles. In this, ShadowedSin has a good point in what he stated here. I wouldn't blame anyone, as we all make mistakes and telephone games are the worst of them. As for the Krytan monarchs - I linked it previously (easy to miss some things though, my repetition of things, even repetition of links, proves such). It's the 2010 Halloween quest gw1:Commandeering a Mortal Vessel's dialogue. We even enter the tomb during said quest (probably what you recall).

Nightmares are spirits (proven by gw1:Haunted and gw1:Nulfastu Earthbound); demons are creatures created directly from the Mists which sometimes resemble other creatures (e.g., gw1:Razah). I'd like to note that mechanics are not always the same as lore and that the list you were referring to, which includes Grentches (proof that demons don't all follow the big bad three), Margonites (not demons in a lore sense), and so forth, is the mechanical gw1:creature type rather than the gw1:species. The wiki's still being re-organized in this effect, but you cannot fully trust those lists as they focus more on the mechanical and observable side of things. Oh, and you listed something which outright proves that corruption isn't solely related to the Elder Dragons: gw1:Margonite. Former humans corrupted and transformed by Abaddon. Lorewise, Margonites are not demons - at least, not traditional demons (one could argue that they were transformed into demons thus are demons not born of the Mists, and likewise one can argue that icebrood are beings transformed into ice and thus are no longer what they once were).

We never see Jormag corrupting others, so we cannot say that "Those who hear Jormag's whispers of madness become branded, not needing to be directly targeted" - gw1:Svanir was directly targeted, and he's the best case we have. In Edge of Destiny, the group do seem to be directly targeted, but as we don't get into their minds when it happens we cannot be certain. With Kralkatorrik, they were directly targeted in a sense - they were in direct contact with its breath - it wasn't that Kralkatorrik was merely flying over.

As for no one being in the Crystal Sea... how can you be so certain? There are bones there, so something or another lived there in the past. It can be argued that the Forgotten did live there prior to their isolation. There's really nothing that says "no one was here." Humans are relatively new in the grand scale of things (Sylvari being newer, of course). Oh, and where's your source that "much of Elona was water at this time" - the Crystal Desert was a sea and the Desolation - the northern portion of Elona - was the coast. That's a lot of land left, and very little left alone. Also keep in mind that to the north of the Crystal Desert are mountains, Orr existed before the Exodus, and that according to the gw1:Ghostly Hero's dialogue in gw1:Thirsty River (outpost), dunes stuck out of the Crystal Sea's surface before it was dried up.

Besides all of that, the Luxons, being sea-faring people, would know how to navigate properly. They would not, if they even could due to resources, spend such lengths on (salt) water.

Honestly, there's no need for a mixing of cultures - the fact that both are sea-faring people would be enough to confuse things when they are over a thousand years old. And I'd like to note, it doesn't "seem like they were in the Crystal Sea" but that they were in the Crystal Desert. They could of easily been there post-Exodus. Though I maintain the idea that the two groups have a common ancestry (whether it be that the Margonites come directly from Luxons, or they both were two schisms of the same group prior to arriving in Cantha). Konig/talk 03:35, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Re-re-ignition

Didn't the White Mantle find the Scepter of Orr in the tombs?-- Necro Shea Mo 20:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Not the one Rotscale guards. Where they were is southeast of Rotscale, but still in Majesty's Rest. Konig/talk 20:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Maybe the scribe is mixed up... Or Rotscale didn't always guard the one he does....-- Necro Shea Mo 01:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that's the case. Rotscale was always in the central tomb, and we don't actually know what is in the building the Scepter was in, just that it had the same design. Also, the blog post was about Rotscale being added to the game, there'd be no reason to bring up the Scepter of Orr through such ambiguousness. This is especially so since the undead never had their hands on the Scepter (until Sanctum Cay). Konig/talk 02:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I thought Rotscale came from the Shiverpeaks. tbh I don't think there's any deeper meaning to it, at least not in the first place. ArenaNet just wanted to create epic boss, and put him little out of reach. They also gave him an epic weapon. It seems probable that the that the bow is more related to Rotscale, than the tomb or whatever it contains. That piece of lore about Krytan monarchis probably pseudo-retcon. I'm in favor of theory that Rotscale took residence in the tomb, claiming it his own, as well reanimating remains of whoever was put rest inside.

Scepter of Orr was probably used by one of the guilds during the Guild Wars. That'd make sense why it'd end up in Kryta, no? It is from Orr, where the city of gods is, after all. But it probably plays a role in GW2, because the end cinematic of EotN is supposed to hint at such (growing of the Pale Tree, slumbering Primordus, etc.). Mediggo 07:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

One thing I forgot to mention is that the Scepter of Orr is 100% irrelevant (to Rotscale) as the line of a "powerful weapon" came from Santax when he edited Rotscale's page years back and it just was never corrected (until I researched it during the original discussion above).

Rotscale did come from the Shiverpeaks originally - in the beta (or was it alpha? I wasn't at either so idk) Rotscale was raised by the Stone Summit in an attempt to destroy the destroyed Ascalon and was thwarted - this took place at the location of the mission that became The Frost Gate. The Scribe's lore supports this still being canon as it says that Rotscale came from the Shiverpeaks (or rather, it says that it killed Ascalonian refugees that were crossing the Shiverpeaks before it went to where it is now).

Regarding the monarch thing - that could of been the lore the entire time, considering the name Majesty's Rest - implying the final resting place of royalty. It was also said that the Scepter of Orr and Staff of the Mists were buried with the kings they were given too - but it was also said that the Scepter of Orr was lost in the Cataclysm (in-game rumors? devs forgetting something? retcon? You decide *dramaticness*). Konig/talk 16:28, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Out of topic here, but @Mediggo : Yes, the Scepter of Orr plays a part in the GW2 story. I remember a recent interview (was it the Lore panel at pax ? Don't remember) where one of the writers (I think it was Ree, but don't quote me on that one) refused to say what had happened to the Scepter of Orr, implying that it's a spoiler to the story. -Alarielle- 16:32, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I was tempted to say the same, but all I could remember/find was that they simply were not ready to talk about it - this could mean spoiler, this could also mean that they haven't decided. I recall this from PAX '10. Konig/talk 16:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought. Good information. Mediggo 17:11, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

template

thanks for the info --Life Infusion «T» 19:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Konig, thx for updating the character template by Shew. I like that a lot and I hope you will keep that style, because I don't like the new border you made for the template in your Sandbox. I prefer the "rough charcoal drawn outline" over your "smooth gold" variation. Is there a way to remove the tiled second layer that lies between the background image and the text boxes? I also made a new Sylvari background picture that is composed of two redesign Sylvari altered in Photoshop to fit the painterly style of the GW2 artwork. Copy & paste if you like it. Gorani 14:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

That border - a work in progress - will be for GW1 characters (there are other differences, particularly the profile (left text box) and the lack of a skill bar). Konig/talk 18:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi König. In case you have not noticed (well, I doubt it, but anyway), the new race & biography questions have been updated. Will you add those to the Character 2 template? Gorani 11:47, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I won't until I get on a computer with internet access. Atm I've been on my phone and its tedious to edit simple things.Konig/talk 17:07, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

You left this on my talk page: "If you prefer the current format, please copy-paste the code that's here to a new page under your user-page." Does that mean I have to create a User:Gorani/Template/Character page? *Feeling confused & dumb* --Gorani 20:13, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You can name it whatever you want, but go to my template's page and copy-paste the entire code (everything above <noinclude> on that page) onto a page in your userspace (e.g., a page that begins with User:Gorani). Then go to the page which uses the template and switch out User:Konig Des Todes/Template/Character with the full page name that you just create. For example, if you create the page at User:Gorani/Chartemplate you'd edit the page which uses the template to switch {{User:Konig Des Todes/Template/Character into {{User:Gorani/Chartemplate. If you have more questions, just shoot. Konig/talk 20:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)