Talk:Phantasm weapons

Why are we calling these "mesmer" weapons or "mist" weapons? Is this an official name? Aqua (talk) 16:55, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

They are listed like this under List_of_unique_weapons. I have no strong feelings about the name it is an unoffical set therfore we can call it how we want it. The violett glow really has a Mesmer apearance but we can call the Mist wepaons or weapon of the Mist or however... Since they are now categorized by the nav it doesn't take much effort to rename all of this. - Yandere 17:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not keen on slapping navs on all the "groups" picked out on "List of unique weapons". -Chieftain Alex 17:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I understand that. The point is these weapons were an unoffical group for quite a long time. I just wanted to get the mor organized even if the organization is more or less unoffical. I think the Weapons of the Mist or however you wanna call them are a bit more difficult, because they bascilly look similar and that is there connection. But the [[summoned weapons]] page I just put together are clearly backed up by an ingame connection these weapons have skins that are identical in apearance to certain class skills. So I have not strong opion on the Mesmer weapons, but the other set is perfectly valid imo. - Yandere 17:32, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

These are purple weapons, not "mesmer weapons." That's like calling something a "norn weapon" because it has ice in the name. Sure, the wiki can call stuff whatever it likes, but let's not try to impose a minority impression. 75.36.176.228 17:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

As I said no stong opinion about this. just call them weapons of the mist I think that was the name before I went with the name from the unique weapons list. So lets just move it? - Yandere 17:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

"weapons of the mists" might mislead some since the wiki already uses "mists" to refer to the pvp/wvw zones and these weapons have nothing specific to do with pvp/wvw. I do support the idea of grouping them together. As Yandere suggests, this group does have a common design. Perhaps we can discuss possible names before deciding on one.

I'll comment elsewhere on "summoned weapons" -- that has a very specific meaning in the game and on the wiki and we should confuse things by using to refer to weapons that look like summoned weapons. 75.36.176.228 18:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

If someone were to stumble upon this page, they would probably do so by searching for "Mesmer weapons" which, undoubtedly, would mean they were looking for a list of weapons available to the mesmer. A note could be made on the individual weapon pages that these weapons are similar to the ones used by summoned illusions. No overarching group should be superimposed. Aqua (talk) 18:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

It's still a weapon group with a similar theme, people may want other weapons in the same group. "Mist weapons" would work fine.--Relyk ~ talk < 19:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

To add my opinion to this: I think “Mesmer weapons” is a terrible name. From the article name, I would expect something like this. I don’t disagree with grouping similar themed weapon skins together but that should be done more explicitely than “<Something it looks like> weapons”, unless there’s an official name of course. Maybe just create a single article “weapon skin groups” or something like that instead. poke | talk 20:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh boy, I didn't thinks this would be such a controversial topic. I am by the way totally fine with: Purple etheral weapons or something like this. The 'of the mists' thing is because some of the weapons also have a similarity in them Reaver of the Mists, Wall of the Mists and Vision of the Mists which is a very obvious similarity. - Yandere 20:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@poke, what you describe for "weapon skin groups" is pretty much at List of unique weapons already - its just that article is terribly named -_- -Chieftain Alex 20:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) What about Phantasmal weapons? That suggestion came from a anon that made it on the Category Talk page. I like it is has no class assoziation and no assosiation with PvP and also has a nice ring to it. - Yandere 05:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Phantasm(al). It does have a class association. I'm also not too keen on the whole "let's start randomly naming things because they remind us of other things" idea; I agree with poke that a single article would suffice for that kind of stuff. If, however, we do decide to go with these named groups thing, I would say that the best pick would be "Weapons of the Mist" and put a disambig to PvP weaponry. I would still oppose that. Aqua (talk) 20:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"Mesmer weapons" is a very confusing name for these. Aside from looking "illusiony" and purple, there is nothing that associates these weapons with mesmers. Mesmers can't even wield some of them. talk 03:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Still in favor of "Mist weapons" :<--Relyk ~ talk < 03:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I found a good name all weapons require 250 Globs of Ectoplasms. These are the only exotic weapons that do that. So Ectoplasm weapons is hopefully a good name. Edit: Wasn't locked in. >_< - Yandere 20:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

What about Wall of the Mists? And yeah, "Weapons of the Mists" is kinda standard nowadays IMO. MalGalad 20:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Never heard anyone refer to these by any collective name. Is the wiki documenting the game and the community? Or is it now imposing a minority viewpoint? In fact, many high-end items use ectos in their mystic forge recipes, some 50, some 250. This includes ascended and infused back items and legendary weapons. (edit: added) One of the items doesn't even use ectos in the recipes (end addition) Several people have already posted their objection to inventing a name for them; why are we still brainstorming instead of leaving things well enough alone? 75.37.17.145 21:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I also don't agree with this name, especially after the IP points out that one doesn't require ectoplasm at all. I've never heard these weapons referred to as ectoplasm weapons, but I have heard them be referred to a mist weapons - it has something to do with all that mist they give off. /endsarcasm. It's clearly obvious that they are part of a set, however if no consensus can be reached then just scrap the page completely rather than tag on a name that no one uses and is not entirely accurate. --Wingsy (talk) 01:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Mesmer weapons

I find pretty obvious these are weapons from the mesmer's illusions, clones and phantasms. Ectoplasm weapons doesn't make any sense considering one of the weapons require no ectos at all, and that many weapons require ectos, making it a far too generic name.

Also, I'm not sure the Anomaly should be included here, just because it glows purple.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the elementalist and guardian weapons, it seems they were included in the ability pages: Conjure and Spirit weapon. I think this is the way to go with what should now be called "Phantasm weapons". Those which aren't phantasm weapons but look similar wouldn't be included.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

So we are deleting this article, list these weapons under Phantasm and create a nav with the titel Weapons wielded by Phantasms. This is actually a pretty clever solution for this problem. If you can say which weapons are actually used by phantasms (I never played a Mesmer so I don't know). I guess the Anomaly is not one of them.- Yandere 13:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

It still sounds like we're just making up a name for a weapon "set" that has no basis in either the game or the community. Is it really mission-critical that we have a page/category for these weapon groups at all? —Dr Ishmael 14:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, they have a connection, but I am currently at a point where I would say just delete page and category. - Yandere 14:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I would however say that it is a nice thing to know which weapons are wielded by Phantasms, because I know that when I first picked up a Fiery Greatsword I thought man this is a cool weapon, and than I realized much later that there is a weapon skill for this weapon. So I see the information how the weapons are called the the phantasms wield is a pretty usefull information and it would also make this page absolete. - Yandere 14:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I tested all phantasms in my mesmer, and unless I've missed any, the phantasm weapons are: Reaver of the Mists, Ilya, Lyss, Abyssal Scepter, Whisperblade, Wall of the Mists, Vision of the Mists and Ignus Fatuus (the icons of both spears are wrong, already reported the bug). Add also Urchin's Needles which wasn't included in any list. Excluded remain: Spirit Links, The Anomaly, Illusion and Mirage. We can mention the excluded ones in some kind of Trivia footnote.

You can see the new list here: Phantasm#Related weapons where it should be. I polished the other two skill weapon sets, too: Conjure#Related weapons and Spirit weapon#Related weapons, and made a new category for them.--Lon-ami (talk) 15:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

That is really illogical. The page is about the skill type, so the weapon info and gallery seems shoe-horned in. —Dr Ishmael 15:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, could we please call a moratorium on moving/editing related to this issue until we come to a consensus? —Dr Ishmael 15:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree with Ish. Personally I found mesmer weapons better for the time that this discussion is going IF a warning was placed to prevent users from getting confused. To give my 2 cents to the discussion. The problem here is that these are in my opinion clearly a set of weapons following a theme but is not named by arenanet. There is also no clear reference possible to a set in gw1 (tormented comes close for the purple glow, but some tormented gw1 weapons had no purple glow but a questionmark instead). This is resulting that people allready made labels in their head. I think whatever solution we come up with, the page should have a warning on top stating that it isn't an official name. If that requirement is ok I don't think this should be deleted and we just pick the best name.Ranique (talk) 13:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

We have a Category:Unofficial terms, but we don't normally place a big notice at the top of the page. —Dr Ishmael 15:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Fwiw I just arrived at this page after searching for "mesmer weapons", but I was looking for information on cooldowns and castimes of actual mesmer weapon skills. Turns out I was looking for the "mesmer skills" page, but it didn't occur to me at all that "mesmer weapons" might refer to these purple ethereal weapons instead. In case this little data point of anecdotal evidence is useful at all. Kurtosis (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Better late than never right? I think we need to be less prudish about "creating" names for things which don't really have an official name. Yeah, not everyone calls them phantasmal weapons (my nomenclature of preference), but so what? This is supposed to be a helpful and thorough documentation of this game to help players get the most out of it. So the simple question is: will players benefit from grouping these weapons together? Yes they will. Is it useful having the list confined to Phantasms? No that's not useful. Players going there will want to learn about the skills, not the weapons. Now, it doesn't really matter how they are grouped, and if we're smart about it, we can group them without giving them a name. The way I see it there are 3 options:

• Put them on a Phantasmal Weapon page and in a Phantasmal Weapon category just like they were a weapon set, even though they're not, because they share many characteristics of a weapon set: same method of obtaining, same level and quality, same aesthetic, same naming structure (for 4 of them at least). Then put redirects for everyone's pet name for these weapons because redirects are cheap.
• Give them nav template without a Phantasmal Weapon page or category, just so that players have a way to navigate this group of related weapons. The idea is that players would look up, I dunno, phantasmal whaler, and they would say "wow I didn't know you could get a weapon that looked just like this" and wind up at Usoku's Needles. Then they say "gee willickers, goshy george, there's a bunch of these that I can get!" This is my favorite option since it seems that it makes everyone the happiest.
• Similar to above, but instead of a nav template, just have a Related Weapons level 2 header that ensures navigation between these pages. Psycho Robot (talk) 01:15, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with all the goals that the previous poster mentions, but that doesn't mean that we should use just any word for the category. That's not squeamishness, that's ensuring that we aren't misleading players. "Ectoplasm weapons" is a poor choice because there are tons of other weapons that use ectos. "Mesmer weapons" is already used to mean something else. Phantasms use weapons with the same skins, but "phantasm weapons" is a term that suggests not only skins and effects, but particular skills -- "Lyss" looks the same as the weapon used by the iDuelist, but that phantasm uses different skills than those available to the mesmer who spawned the illusion. Even, "weapons wielded by phantasms" isn't strictly accurate -- we can only be sure that the skins are the same.

I think the most useful presentation would be a nav box that grouped together all weapons created in the mystic forge, and then separated by similarity of skins. Something like "named weapons created in the mystic forge" and divided into "skins used by phantasms" and "skins shared with conjured weapons" and so on.

I can imagine a lot of other, simpler navbox designs that would work. The only thing I ask is that they not be as misleading as the recent titles for the article, "ectoplasm weapons" or "mesmer weapons" 75.37.17.23 02:18, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

There's no question that of the many options presented, calling them ecto weapons is the worst. Phantasm weapons has sort of an ambiguity to it, but phantasmal weapons, I believe, does not. Or it has so little that its worth it in the long run. Weapons wielded by phantasms is, I believe, a poor choice, because it means that some of these weapons would be excluded, despite fitting thematically in the set, for an arbitrary reason. Making a giant navbox with all weapons made in the mystic forge is bad idea because it would be huge. You also mention that it would be separated by similarity of skins, but if you're going to do that, then why not just make separate navboxes. If giving them a name is something that absolutely cannot be stomached, then the final option of just listing "related weapons" is the best option. Psycho Robot (talk) 03:05, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

So the idea is to move the weapon section from Phantasm to a new page, like Phantasm weapons? I would use just "Phantasm", not "Phantasmal", to leave the source clear. Also, remember we have two other weapon groups with the same problem: Conjure weapons and Spirit weapons. We should search a solution that works for the three of them.

What about "Phantasm skill weapons"? Leaves pretty clear the source, and leaves no confusion with the originals since it has "skill" on the name. The new pages would be something like this:

• Phantasm weapons -> "Phantasm skill weapons" (Purple ones but not phantasm in the trivia, like now)
• Conjure weapons -> "Conjure skill weapons"
• Spirit weapons -> "Spirit weapon skill weapons"

Not sure about plural on "skill" (Phantasm skill(s) weapons). Maybe "item" instead of skill. Whatever is chosen, I think the name should have something identifying the page as not part of the gameplay of the original skill source.--Lon-ami (talk) 22:24, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Phantasm is the noun, phantasmal is the related adjective. Just like you would say phantasmal duelist to indicate duelist which is a phantasm, you would say phantasmal weapon to indicate a weapon which is (related to) a phantasm. Having a nav box without going to the trouble of creating a category or a weapon page is something that would work for all 3 of those cases. The only sticking point is that in a nav box there would probably have to be a name, and supposedly some people are unhappy with having name chosen, and if that's something that would gum up the works, we could just have an unnamed list of "related weapons" at the end of each of the phantasmal weapon articles. Psycho Robot (talk) 00:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

That's the problem, weapons themselves aren't phantasmal, they are "weapons wielded by phantasms". You wouldn't call spirit weapons "spiritual weapons", or weapons wielded by corrupt guys "corrupted weapons". Also, it can still lead to confusion, I think we need something in their name to differentiate them from the skill and the phantasms. Looking at the name you should know they are related to phantasms but not to phantasm abilities.--Lon-ami (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

"Weapons wielded by phantasms" sounds like they are the weapons wielded by the actual phantasms - it just sounds wrong to me. —Dr Ishmael 15:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this is too bogged down in semantics, but phantasmal as an adjective means that they possess qualities of phantasms, but not necessarily that they literally are phantasms. In this case the qualities refer to the translucency, the ethereal purple glow, etc. Spirit weapons are literally spirits of weapons, since that is, I assume, the canon. Likewise corrupt weapons are weapons which are corrupt. Ordinarily I would not care one way or the other, but like ishmael, I think the phrase weapons wielded by phantasms makes an arbitrary divide that has to be accommodated rather awkwardly. Psycho Robot (talk) 21:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) personally, I'd delete this page, delete the category, and just stick with a nav of weapons that look similar. the only issue is therefore the name of the nav and the name that appears above the nav - the name of the template does not matter imho, and I'd just put "Weapons with a similar appearance" as the title to the weapon nav. While this won't let us use the uber smw galleries on the "named weapons" or whatever-the-heck-its-called-now page, I don't see this as being a big issue. (I would, obviously, apply the same methodology to the current contents of Category:Spirit weapons and Conjure weapons#Related weapons, but perhaps with links in a "see also" section on those pages to the individual weapon pages.) -Chieftain Alex 21:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

That only makes the information harder to find. We can clearly organize these weapons into groups hence the pages being justified, there's no reason to delete the page or category because of semantics on the wiki. List of weapon sets already does the job of "Weapons with a similar appearance".--Relyk ~ talk < 12:02, 24 December 2013 (UTC)