Guild Chat - Episode 59
Guild Chat - Episode 59
- Title
- Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire Story
- Host
- Rubi Bayer
- Guests
- Mike Zadorojny
Tom Abernathy
Connie Griffith
Scott McGough
Bobby Stein
Connor Fallon
Matthew Medina - Date
- February 2, 2018
- Official video
- YouTube
The 59th episode of Guild Chat aired on February 2, 2018. Rubi sits down with guests from the Guild Wars 2 Narrative Team to learn more about the story of Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire.
Transcription[edit]
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Guild Chat studio [6:54][edit]
Rubi Bayer: Hi guys, and welcome to Guild Chat. I'm your host Rubi and we're gonna talk about the Path of Fire story today. I'm really excited to share this with you and our dev guests. But there's something else I want to talk about with you first. Some of you have heard us talking here and there about how we're going to celebrating you, our community, throughout February, and I want to start the show by telling you how we're going to do that. The community, you guys, are one of the highlights of Guild Wars 2. And we're going to spend February celebrating that. The way we're gonna do that: we're asking you to share your stories of relationships that you've made in Guild Wars 2, platonic or romantic, by sharing those with us on text, video, pictures, however format you prefer. And you can send those to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, using the hashtag #GW2FriendShips. (laughs) I've been trying to say GuildWars2FriendShips the whole time. #GW2Friendships. And they note, if you share on the Facebook page, that needs to be a post directly on the Guild Wars 2 Facebook page's wall, because Facebook Search is weird. We're going to start showcasing those on the Guild Wars 2 page pretty soon. But there's a little something else that we have for you. You've heard us talk about how we want you all to feel like you have a friend at ArenaNet. So, through the month of February, we're going to have a little gift from one friend to another starting this Tuesday after the game build. The first time you log your character into Lion's Arch, you'll have a little gift in your mail that's an Endless Friendship Tonic. This is an effect that you put on yourself, on your own character, by double-clicking it once, and you will double-click it again to turn it off. This is good the entire month of February, so whenever you have a chance to log in, that will come to you, and this is good every February from here on out. So those friends of ours who haven't started playing Guild Wars 2 yet don't miss out in future years. So that gift is coming to you next week. But there's a little bit something more. We've managed to round up some prizes to go with this event. If you would like to enter a random draw for some prizes, use the #GW2FriendShips and add the hashtag #GW2Giveaway and at the end of the month be entered in for a random draw for one of fifty $10 off coupons at our friends at For Fans By Fans for some Guild Wars 2 merchandise. So we have fifty of those, but there's something else. After we draw those fifty winners, we're going to keep drawing, and five of you will get the chance to work with one of our creative partners to have a commission done of the in-game character of your choice plus another character of your choice, presumably your character and that of your favorite adventuring companion. So we're going to give that to five of you. But there's a little something else, and I have to keep looking at my list for this one. We're going to draw two more winners after we draw all of those. And those two winners will get to take a friend and come visit your friends here at ArenaNet. We're going to give you and a plus one round-trip travel to Seattle during the weekend of PAX West. We'll give each of you PAX West badges for all four days, six days and five nights in a hotel; one or two rooms, as you and your travelling companion prefer, and a $50 per diem for each of you to cover your food and general traveling around the city for a day. So, we're going to start with that today, and we'll get to hear all of your stories, and thank you all for being part of our community here in Guild Wars 2. So. And now we're going to
about the PAP fire story with our Guild Wars 2 game director Mike I'll let you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your history here at every minute hi I'm Mike Siddhartha I'm the game director on Guild Wars 2 I've been with the Reno net just over 12 years like two weeks ago yeah so I started here in the Quality Assurance team mostly just testing gilbert factions before it originally came out and it was a small dedicating about eight testers and it was a chance for us to prove that what in a dedicated group in-house could really do for the studio and then it just kind of blossomed from there so got hired on full-time after her factions launched and then during after nightfall i was able to take over the team and then when the studio was like hey you know we want to go work on Guild Wars 2 they left me in charge of production for the Guild Wars 1 live team so I worked with Lindsey Murdock when she was originally the lead designer of it and then John stung me shortly there afterwards so I spent probably three or four years working on Gilbert's wand and kind of crafting the Gilberts beyond kind of experience for the players and helping make sure that we were shipping regularly for them and then I jumped over to Guild Wars 2 so I joined the content design team over there and just had a wonderful time working on maps like Snowden drifts fields of ruined her Athey hinterlands and then after Gil was - shipped I got a chance to kind of take over again more of the leadership role so I started becoming more of a design POC working with the living world teams working with like the super venture box team with the fractals team and kind of helping that make sure that we were hitting a consistent bar for quality that we were still continuing to innovate on all the the game spaces that we wanted to with Gilberts to eventually start moving towards working on some systems so I redesigned the achievement reward system or the daily achievement system and then worked on the login reward system and this is about the time that we were working horns so I got pulled back into that so I did the mouth of mordremoth encounter in dragon stand it was huge yeah that was about four or five months worth of just dedicated development working with the artist to kind of craft how the experience was going to be kind of what we wanted the the overall fight to look like and how we wanted really the players jumping from platform to platform and really kind of being able to make it a much more dynamic in Kara than some of the other large-scale bosses to be able to do in the past and then after that it was about okay well now new seasonal living world and path afire so I stepped up and led the design team for path afire worked with a hundred plus dedicated people who just had amazing passion and vision and just so much love for the content and the franchise and you're gonna hear a lot of their stories here later today and it was it was a wonderful experience everyone just really wanted to bring a new light and you know really envisioning and read the exploration of Guild Wars 2 and it was just a wonderful experience and now that's out of the way it's okay now we're doing another season the living world we're continuing the storyline where we left off and so I've stepped up and I'm now replacing Michael Bryan as the game director and really just kind of continuing that legacy there's been a number of people who've been in this role before that are giants these are legends in in the Guild Wars 2 community and in MMOs in general and so just really kind of being able to pick up where they left off and carry that torch but then also being able to expand on it as well so not just with living world not just with you know world versus world updates in PvP and raids and fractals but we've got some more in our back pocket that we're kind of working on and just most recently we've kind of been a little bit more open with communication like with the world restructuring plan for world versus world and some of the balance updates we have that are coming next week with some of the design there changes for Mesmer's and phantasms so it's it's all just getting started it's really exciting yeah whirlwind 12 years and it's you know we're just getting started so it's it's it's super fun it's great people and I love this place so I know it's been a super long road that doesn't feel like it has slowed down at any point but as to more open communication I know you guys really appreciate that and it's good to hear that we're gonna keep we're gonna keep doing that ya know it is one of the one of our goals to kind of you know like you said we want people feel like they were friended ArenaNet so how best do we do that through kind of the the constant messaging the the let's play stuff that you guys were doing the other day with the world versus world team out there and you know I'm I'm constantly in the game just because I I love it I love the fans I love our community I mean even this friendships initiative is you know you pitched it to the design team and and and just design in general or the the like human general and everyone was super excited because someone once told me that we don't make games we mailed communities and we just do it the best way possible which is through games and I totally believe that Guild Wars 2 would be nothing without the community and without the interaction and just the love and and the generosity of the people that are out there it's very true and so for us it's just it's being able to continue this legacy and be able to work with them and and communicate with them and have this lasting impression because even some of the stories that are going to come out during the friendships like it's this matters more to us than like anything else that we do because it means that what we're doing actually matters that there's there's a point that players are connecting to and being able to being able to touch people's lives in that way is just so unique that it's one of the reasons why I got in this business is I wanted to tell stories and I wanted to be able to leave an impression and a legacy to kind of the people that are playing the games that you know Guild Wars to success or failure I think is gonna be like years after we've already shut the game the server's down many decades in the future where like players can still remember fondly those experiences and the friendships that they made and and kind of what the game has meant to them and so that's kind of where I want our legacy to be and where we're going and that those relationships in dirt exact we've seen that and it's an amazing amazing thing so thank you guys for that alright well would you like to get us started and introduce the path fire story and we'll move on to our first round of deaf guests so yeah a lot of the stuff we've talked about path afire story development before in the past a lot of this is going to be much more behind the scenes and we can kind of go back and talk about some of the things that maybe didn't necessarily make it in the final cut because there's there's a lot of really cool stories in school and again this is these are all people who were very dedicated over 18 month period to kind of build in such a a monumental experience for this and really push the bar in terms of what we did for storytelling for Guild Wars 2 and so this is just the starting point so I hope you guys all enjoy this we definitely had a lot of fun and a lot of love put into this project so for us this is just another chance for us to kind of give you a glimpse behind the scenes some of the decision-making process how we thought about some of these things and showing once more like you know the love the passion the even the friendships between us in some cases like we're not even co-workers we're more friends than we are at that level and so yes enjoy and we'll see you in-game all right we will be back in just a couple minutes thanks Mike Oh [Music] [Music] all right we are back with our first round of deaf guests and we're gonna jump right in I'll go down the line let you guys introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about your role here to reading it and what you worked on for pacifier story my name is Tom Abernathy I am the studio narrative director and in a general sense what that means is I oversee a team about 20 writer narrative designers editors vo folks and the main part of my job is sort of helping everybody sort of understand the quality bar they were trying to hit help everybody continue to hone their craft and make the narrative aspects of Guild Wars 2 and you know as good as it can possibly be and on path a fire actually started about a year ago almost and so I kind of came on in the middle of path of fire so most of my involvement was sort of from roughly the middle of of this you know whole thing to the end basically in Connie's area way I am one of the designers on pacifier I joined the project about a year and a half before launch by the time I've gotten here the broad strokes had been stored decided and it was my job to take the little corner that have been assigned to me and work with these guys Tom and uh Tom it's got to really bring it to life and yeah create a exciting new chapter for Guild Wars fans and I'm Scott McGough I was the narrative lead for path afire I was one of the people who helped lay down the broad strokes before full production started and then we took things as far as we could and then very talented people like Tom and Connie joined us and helped us bring it across the finish line I was responsible for the overall lore and story both the instant story linear story that you tell with the commander and the world story all the stuff that's going on in the crystal desert region with Joe go missing and everything else that's going on there well let's start with some fun stuff and talk about some of your favorite things that you've worked on and put in the game and now it's a free-for-all I don't care well I actually really enjoyed working with Scott I had the great fortune to actually be able to sit directly behind Scott so I'd constantly like turn around be like hey Scott right and ask questions so you heard all those things I muttered to myself yeah it was really fun for me to create the Flint crystal memories which is something that we ended up kind of running with in path of fire and just being able to kind of delve into the lore and really get into like the mind of the great crystal dragon glint and sort of explore the things that she might have been thinking and feeling it's a sort of depth that you don't really get to do it's outside of gameplay but it's so important it's giving life to events that happen off screen and it was a really fun collaborative effort with the writers so I'm I'm pretty proud of that and I will second that emotion it was a really fun collaborative effort between narrative and designers on this project we worked extra hard at the very beginning of the project we all sat down the entire team variety writers artists designers animators marketing anyone who had anything to do with path afire and we just brainstorm what could happen in the crystal desert region what sort of things do we want to show what do we think players want to play and see in this and so we generated this mountain of ideas that we me and several of the other of the people who were in the position sort of sifted through tried to focus it down narrow it down to these are the things we want to work on but from the very beginning it was a hugely rewarding and collaborative process yeah I mean we created vast crystals also as well that's something you get to see and eight yeah and I can talk that the question was what are you proudest of working on the the last crystals was one personal favorite parts because we knew we were going to introduce blasts and that he was going to die fairly in a fairly short order which can be frustrating but it was meant to sort of illustrate the tragic nature of the character he didn't have a lot of the advantages that we hope to give or een as a young baby dragon and so he wasn't ever socialized properly he never had a champion and so he was this tragic figure he didn't connect with mortals the way Clint had and the way we hope Orion will and so since he didn't show up and die so quickly I was really happy we had the chance to get his character out there so people would understand better where he was coming from what his mindset was and what his role was in the crystal desert in the grand scheme of glints legacy what was his part to play and perhaps indicate how unhappy and frustrated he was with that part because it wasn't all he hoped it would be so tragic character with a tragic end but this led us put his thoughts on stage and let people see why they should care about this tragic character as a player I really appreciated that because we hadn't really met Flast I mean we kind of knew back in the background that he existed but because of what you guys put in there I really cared when he died and that was that was a key point in the story for me them I really felt thank you very much I'm glad to hear that that's what we were shooting for it despite the fact that he had limited screen time if you cared that he died then we did at least we did our job right thank you for hurting me I mean I think that's a general philosophy that Tom can speak more to this as well is that you know story telling story in video games is very interesting and the maxim show don't tell is even more important especially since we have tools to bring things to life that we can't necessarily do just seeing a book or something like that right just text and that that's definitely something we tried really really hard to do I definitely think like chapter 7 that was the the chapter that Tom came in the whole got the corner reveal I definitely gonna let Tom kind of tell his bit when he came in the fire so to speak yeah I was drinking from several different fire hoses but thank you not a problem but fortunately I was prepared for it I given ample information and was ready to run as soon as I hit the ground yeah I so - my favorite things I love the Cormier chapter particularly and that was a scene that went through a lot of iteration Moe got very hands one by Moe rediscovered I think his joy in in developing on path of fire and so he was really a big part of the process with with that scene specifically as well as some other stuff and so that was that was really cool and fun to work on and hone and get it to where we wanted it to be I really love the the branching speech that the commander has at the end at the party which basically I mean that's not something that we do a lot of but the reason that we made that choice was that we we all had slightly different ideas of what we wanted to hear the commander's say at that point and and so rather than choose one we decided let's sort of give voice to all of them and and let the play or sort of find their way through it and and pick the one that feels best to them and then of course you get you know different reactions from people afterwards enduring actually you know based on what on which path you're taking and so that was you know that that was cool those are always fun to do and the other thing that I really loved and I give them oh a lot of the credit for this honestly is immediately following the the Cormier chapter you know we knew that in terms of the story what Cormier basically has said to you is we're we're out we're not going to help you because we feel like we messed things up whenever we try to and so this is your world this is your problem go deal with it yep might drop nice out and and and so story wise the character the commander and and and everyone with the commander are put back in the world without a solid sense of what they should do next and in game design this is weird for it's a very dangerous thing yes it's almost like like like the conventional wisdom is that you never leave the player without a sense of what they're supposed to be doing right that you always want to be giving them information about how to play the game and what their what their next objective is how they can go about trying to achieve it and everything and and Moe really argued forcefully for not doing that in this case he said he said you know the the the characters have been given nothing to go on let's give the player nothing to go on let's just plop him down in the desert with the vaguest of direction and let them make you know make them basically have to figure it out and and I thought that was really a stroke of genius and I don't know very many people in his position or my position for that matter who would it would have been brave enough to sort of take that chance but I think it paid off I think it's really cool did and I am i I am aware that it works but I still have like residual stress no it was you're right it was a very bold choice and I'm I'm glad it worked out and it plays into what Connie was saying about show don't tell it was yeah it's that kind of meta moment where the player and your fictional player their avatar that you play like you have a coinciding moment yeah Scott there was a something that you had mentioned me earlier that I wanted to call back when you guys were planning all of this and running down how you wanted the story to go there was a moment when you were trying to figure out you had this confrontation with Balthazar right you didn't want to like step all over the final fight yeah it was it was a real challenge because we had set up Balthazar in the previous season of living world so people understood he was gonna be the antagonist and we had we had powered himself and so we have the commander the player taking on a god and we knew this was gonna be a tall order you don't want to have everything the big final confrontation happened in the first ten minutes right so we hit up on a few devices we're gonna give him a herald that'll help him introduce the character and sort of set what his agenda is in the crystal desert and then we thought but we can't we don't want to keep Balthazar offstage for the entire middle part of the story and then how how do we have a confrontation with Balthazar without spoiling the ending of what the big final fight against Balthazar would be and so we had some conversations and we hit on the idea when you first meet him he is much more powerful than you anticipated and so he basically wipes the floor with you and your whole team that was after the last confrontation Balthazar basically levels the entire party and leaves you wandering on the ground wondering what happened and we were happy with that and we had set up a series of meetings where we were talking about okay so how do we bridge that with the big final confrontation at the end and we had some ideas and we tossed them back and forth and nothing seemed to be coming together and then tip of the hat to Matthew Medina who I believe you'll be seeing shortly Matthew Medina love working with Matthew we have worked together for years and years on heart of thorns and paths of fire and Matthew has a verbal tick that you need to be aware of because during a meeting Matthew will say here's a crazy idea and the next thing that comes out of his mouth is usually genius and Matthew said here's a crazy idea what if you go up against Balthazar and he kills you and there was this moment where everyone in the room stood a pause and our eyes got really big and there's a quick yeah oh yeah then you have to come back from the dead you have to fight your way back and earn your way to another for a rematch against the God who wiped you and your whole party out and then killed you and so that became one of the really powerful story hooks we were able to hang the structure on after you get killed by Balthazar its dismal what are your chances and then you have to sort of scramble and come up with a strategy and implement that strategy and out-think and outfight him and that became the avenue we pursued i think to some success because it was really uh people weren't expecting to die once they died they didn't know it was gonna happen to them and we had mapped all that out beforehand because Matthew said here's a crazy idea okay so when Matthew says that we need to listen yes my takeaway here definitely it did it did work out well the first time I I went through that and again speaking as a player I had that moment of huh well that that sure did happen take that didn't go as planned it's not this is not supposed to happen but yeah the whole the whole track to the end world and all of that was first of all it was a really fun callback which I always loved and actually want to talk about that with you yeah I was like I enjoy that yeah they're there I would say pacifier it presented a really exciting opportunity because we were revisiting the crystal desert a place that had so much significance for Gilmore's players and there was a lot of that like how can we how can we bring people up to speed right people who only played Guild Wars all these amazing stories this world that we have already built and retell them I thought that particular instance was was definitely one of them right like being able to wander through the underworld and see all the highlights of what had happened to you as the commander the designers that put that together Jeff Vaughn just really leaned into it and that's how you know you have a good idea when everything just like yeah let's let's keep doing it I'm sorry oh yeah no yeah but in terms of broad strokes that was one of the guidelines we tried to follow when we were drafting the story and the world story of what was gonna happen in the region yeah we wanted we didn't want this to be just one long series of callbacks to Guild Wars 1 we wanted to follow up on stuff and give people updates on the things that had changed and so at the same time introducing these elements to people who had never seen them before but paying them off for people who had while simultaneously advancing the story we are currently telling about the Elder Dragons and Balthazar and there were lots of good examples where we succeeded really well I think Glen Slayer I think the underworld various other bits and pieces but that was one of the guiding principles we had and we stride to stick to it as much as we could because otherwise we would have gone down the rabbit hole of look at all the cool things there are here from Guild Wars 1 and not to say those things aren't cool and shouldn't deserve screen time but we had to focus on what is the story we're telling now and move this current world forward that's right you have to let the story motivate those choices that you make we we we do like incorporating those kinds of callbacks for people who've been playing the game for a long time but there has to be a reason for it and and I think to excuse me um you know what you're probably hearing at this point is sort of a recurring theme of we really spend a lot of time asking ourselves what can we do that we haven't done before that's going to challenge players expectations that's going to surprise them and hopefully and and I mean that's that's a mindset that we really that was here when I walked in the door and it was it was very gratifying to see that because I really believe in that strongly and and we've certainly tried to keep that moving into into the current season yeah something that you had commented on part of the callbacks and again the callbacks are great I feel like you guys struck a good balance part of it you felt like you were opposed to at the start and oh yeah I am actually this might be interesting for people but I actually oh god I'm gonna say this on camera I was very opposed to doing the whole Cormier scene in Chapter 7 yes well there were there are some scope reasons for that right but in the beginning I was really concerned I went back I watched the Guild Wars you know nightfall ending I talked with some of the designers that were there at the time and I really tried to get a sense and feel and I was like you know what this is never going to be as good as people remembered right and we are effectively going to be rebuilding this like critical scene within the Guild Wars 2 engine right like all this stuff like I spent hours building the composites for that scene and it was a lot of research asking designers that had been here at the time to send me stuff and it was just one of those things where it's just like I didn't want to disappoint players right like I didn't want this to be like oh hey this is going to be a cameo but as I started doing it mo really drove that and I was like okay I'm willing to try and working with artists working with you know our incredibly talented writers you know I got one over that actually happens to me a lot I like to me that I like to be the ordering cus it's like about that but you know the proof is in the pudding right like you build it and you go you know what this could be this could be really great like this could be really meaningful and as someone who actually didn't play Guild Wars 1 it people later told me like oh my I can't I can't believe that you rebuilt the the ending of nightfall in this entire scene so I'm not afraid to admit it I can see how that I can see how it would be intimidating style your glasses are super super powerful yes and that would be scary but I think it's really really good to have and it says a lot for the team that there's someone who will speak up and say hang on I don't know if this is the best idea and that people can do that and work with it yeah absolutely so it does it does say good thanks and I'm glad it worked out well yeah I would I would say that one of the great things about this team is we're all really strong passionate people we are definitely butt heads every now and then but it's always because we care it's always because we want to tell the best story and I think that Guild Wars 2 is a better game because you know the game is forged in this this this fire of passionate people that are trying to argue for certain things and push one thing over another and the end it's just you know it becomes where it's better than anything I could have come up on my own you know it's it's better it is the better for the conflict and something that all six of you have said to me is that there there was so so much iteration in the in the process of creating the story of path of fire and you also had a moving target to work with and that's something that we talked about on previous shows is that the open world was changing yeah and you kept having to there was just the iteration of the story itself and then you also kept having to it just to accommodate the changing open world but it sounds like you guys came through that relatively intact you all seemed as sane as fact that Cormier chapter you know we have these like sort of like moments where we evaluate if something is ready to ship we we were tweaking seven the audio everything all the way till the last minute that like after the game came out one of our producers mark sends me mimosas congratulations your chapter past events I did not want to know that this is the day after yes I remember just going yeah yeah that's amazing but congratulations so there are a couple of other things you were involved in a lot of the vo work down in Burbank weren't you yes I was and I've been fortunate I have a background as an actor a theatre director film maker before I got any games and so I have a lot of experience working with actors both live and in recording studios it's a very specific skill set voice actors have it's not the same as on-camera acting or just a jack ting at all although obviously there are some skills that are in common the the thing that was most I think interesting about about some of the vo process for path of fire is that we had not to be perfectly frank done a great job previous two paths a fire of representing as diverse voices it's technically in in the game as I think we should have I think we would all acknowledge that as as we should have been doing and so the fact that we were going to do an expansion pack set in this part of the world meant that that was an opportunity for us to really correct that right so not only were there you know tons of faces of color on the screen who needed to be voiced by people of color but it wasn't just you know named characters who were important in this story it was even the generics we didn't we didn't have I don't if we had any non-white generic act actors who did generic parts before that and so which is dumb I mean it's it's short-sighted and and and it's it wasn't malicious it was just you know a blind spot right and so what's great about the vo process for pacifier is we now have a much bigger stable of actors that we work with on a regular basis which is net which is much more diverse because of it and you know that was that was a very gratifying thing to be a part of because I think it's a true statement in media in general certainly in our industry that that there is not always as much diversity of representation as there ought to be both on the screen and behind the screen and you know any anytime we can find an opportunity to remind ourselves that that's what we should be trying to live up to you know for me is a great thing it makes you feel good it certainly added to the quality of the of the thing now there is one exception which is kind of a funny it's the it's the exception that proves the rule if you will which is agent keto because and this happens this is gonna be shocking today I'm gonna say but sometimes we don't communicate as well with other departments as we perhaps ought to and so it's a big building and there are other departments right I mean the art department is enormous and and I don't get nearly enough of an opportunity to interact with most of the art department below Horry as level and so what happened was Quito evolved out of a generic character generic character was was given lines cast with an not an actor of collar and then evolved into a named character who became more and more important to the story both empath fire and and in this story and mmin the season end and the thing is Eve who did the castle primarily hadn't didn't see the model she didn't know oh that because she wouldn't she had yes she had cast it originally uh again you know assuming without any information to the contrary contrary and this is as I said a blind spot that it would be a probably a white character and and never knew that it needed to be otherwise until we had already recorded it and so that's a bit of our process we're gonna try to tighten up at the future but we did go back and rerecord some voices to make sure they read that that actually is true with a lot of people yeah because when we started very caring yes right yeah I think I think we didn't realize at first until we started seeing it right how many faces of color there were on the screen which was awesome and yes the voice recordings we had the actors that we cast in some cases you had Caucasian clearly Caucasian voices coming out of clearly non-caucasian mouths and and it didn't make sense and we did go back in and rerecord a lot I would like to just further call out a veteran Bakr rvo product production lead she put in a lot once we may had that realization that this wasn't working the way we intended because of that blind spot you've put in some serious extra time to correct that generating scheduled and organized so that we could address that situation and make it right yeah he's a hero she's so great and and and also I was it you know Moe very quickly he said yeah I'll green like the money to do that there was no reason everybody was like oh my gosh yes that's something we need to do I do remember during development some of the vendors outside of M noon Oasis interacting with them on my character and just going that sure is what you sounds like later and catching the new voices yes so and that's one thing that I do love about us as a company is that we are constantly trying to get better yeah and it was a blind spot and I am I'm very proud that we are working to correct about yeah yeah it was a blind spot and to be very clear it's it was something that was not in line with what we know our values are yeah I mean that's not like we're a company that that actually values that kind of diversity a lot and so we all I think felt a little dumb that that was not that we missed that and and we were glad that there was time to correct it it's allowed yeah so yeah but yeah it was it was an interesting part of the iteration process and an interesting part of development just catching and that's like I said I caught this one little Bank of NPCs outside of one city in one tiny area and I know it was more widespread than that so it was interesting to just see that part of the process I spent some time talking to Josh Diaz about that and Josh I know Josh put a lot of work in a lot of study into this region in our oh yeah I mean it was scrupulous right because it's it's I mean today it's a minefield potentially if you do if you don't do it right and and we really wanted to make sure that our treatment of the area was not didn't feel like nod to specific cultures but rather was sort of a kind of amalgam of a general sort of pan-african feel and and that we stayed on the right side of being respectful and treating people and cultures with dignity it's not an easy thing to do I've seen many examples in my career of games doing it wrong but I but I I really feel like we have succeeded in this case and pacifier in the new season with that and and and that's that's great that we can do that and shout out to all our voice actors and they're awfully talented people yeah so speaking of voice actors I know you guys need to get back to work there's one more thing that I wanted to mention you worked on the timey communication system yes yeah those checkpoints were had the option to go contact thaimee remotely who time II was being back in rata Novus she was being pushed out of her lab by Flint the Soraa arcane council had decided that they needed to take over an eminent domain her work so time he wasn't part of this story but we wanted her to be a part of the group and it allowed us storytelling wise it let us cover some of the events that were happening off screen so you could keep up with the fact that what what time he was doing in the lab and how Orion was doing as things went downhill what was Keith up to and the fact that Orion had left because we didn't want to Orion to just show up literally out of a clear blue sky we sort of gave you a heads up oh she's a dragon that's true yeah but perception wise so we had that series of updates from time II and then time he joined the player during the epilogue and after that awesome modular speech that the players are given a chance to make and this was something I collaborated with closely Conor Fallon the designer of that last story instance we decided we wanted to have time he make one last call back to the lab and so I believe after the second to last Orion since if you try to call back lab flaunt answers and says I thought we turned off all the progenies machinery there - what is this tiny herself how her makes a after the after the speech after the party time he makes a crank call back to her lab pretending to be a charm and I don't want to spoil it for you but she kind of bricks slumped over the coals a bit in this char persona and I was in the recording session I actually was able to write the lines they were reviewed and approved but Debi Derryberry was behind the mic she is art the voice of timing she is excellent and I said okay Debbie what we got here is time he's making a prank call and she's pretending to be a char I want to do this two ways first I want you to do it in your normal time a voice that we will then add traditional char processing to to make you sound more like a char or I also want you to do timey doing a char impression and between us and our audience I had no doubt at all which one I wanted to use but I felt we had to have coverage just in case and suffice to say Debbie ran through the straight time he read that we were gonna put processing on no proble at all sounded great but then just a thing of beauty to hear at Debi Derryberry in real time doing timey doing a charm it was so awesome she knocked it out of the park and I love this is one of my favorite things about writing vo dialogue as an undergrad I read a lot of plays and I was always thrilled when I write a line and I think to my head that lines brilliant that's a really great cap to this scene this couldn't be better and then I hear the actor perform it and they add shades of meaning to it and they improve it beyond my wildest dreams and this was one of those cases I thought those lines were funny then Debbie read them as tiny as a child and I fell out of my chair crying so so wonderful that was really one of the real high points was that session and then the results those of you who if you've played that instance and not heard tae mi's prank call go play it again it's right at the end you get the chance it's it's it's glorious Debi Derryberry is awesome thank you for giving her that to work with ya so on that note I will let you guys get back you guys don't go anywhere because we have three more devs to talk to so stick around and we will be back in just a minute [Music] [Music] [Music] hi welcome back we have three more of our devs from path fire I'll let you guys go down the line introduce yourselves talk about your role here during it and what you worked on for the past hour story sure I'm Bobby sign I'm the associate narrative director at our internet and for pathify are helped with the story team for about the last year of development I helped with script revision rewrites things of that nature very nice thank you I got it specially for today hi I'm Chad on to my barber sorry kick back a nickel for every new customer alright hi I'm Connor I was a game designer on pacifier I worked on lay of the land enemy of my enemy and small victory so basically all the am-noon and oh and awaken content that came up in the main story i wanted my title to be below a joke apologist but apparently they decided to say i was a game designer which is also true we checked your business cards and oh sorry but yeah hi i'm matthew oh wow i can't top that i was the straight as I lead find out that you ran the entire thing running is that's giving me more credit take it ticket yeah no so for my role I not only did I do three of our chapters basically the first three well no three of the first four because you did chapter two so I did the three of the first four chapters implementation and and story design work and then I also was the team lead so I oversaw Connie Connor and our other story designers and liaison with pretty much everybody else cinematics and audio and narrative team so it was sort of my job to keep make sure all the pieces were coming together and make sure that everyone's on track for what their chapters were meeting see that's not taking too much mine okay well here's a crazy idea tell us can we can we like sit on the floor doing high now okay so do you guys want to talk about some of your favorite things that you worked on for the story sure let's see well man we rehearse this the other day and I know you have no favorites I have something for you you do oh yeah that is certainly my favorite College photo spring break yeah so actually that that was a kind of a funny thing that you know in the very beginning of path of fire firing shows up in the you know first story instance and lion's arch and you know this kind of a funny exchange it's totally optional so I mean a lot of players probably didn't even talk to him they just ran out but the player no idea so if you do talk to Ferran he kind of mentions hey listen I'm ready to come and you know join the fight and the players like why don't you stay behind in the guard the docks you know kind of keeps Ferren out of the picture but he does show up at the very end in the epilogue and and I had the fun task of working with Connor on the like a lot of the optional kind of ambient stuff in the final story and since mostly like the conversations that you can optionally have and you know we have this funny Conor actually supplied a list of hey you know bare minimum we should have these characters so he separated it into three tiers got all of them yeah I'm looking at this list and I'm like wow you know I didn't work on some of these instances I don't know who any of these characters are so I'm like do I do the research or I just um no dice so at any rate over the course of a couple of weeks he kept bugging he's like did you do the thing yet I'm like so finally I spent a couple of days just going through playing those other sections getting familiar with the characters and then writing I think you know probably the bear man then I thought would you get away with the funny thing is right at the bottom in tier 3 was Lord Fair and I'm like if I just put this guy in like in the first pass and don't do any of the other ones Connors gonna be like well so it was quite apparent so well long story short I think Connor put him in pretty front and center in the party and we were joking we're like yeah he's got to be in his in his in his speedo and you know it'll be hilarious and you know I get there's no end of the enjoyment that I get up having fair and show up in his underwear but not everybody thinks it's all that funny so mo is just like what the hell is this we just put them somewhere else so that like mo doesn't see him and like cuz most cool with basically it's fine to have this other stuff in the game just make sure you're very particular about what's in the golden path right so yeah so anyway shuffle the Moran and Connor will talk a little more about this yeah the funny thing about Ferren is he's still in the middle of the party yeah like buffet table by the way which I don't think a sanitary people just keep running by him and the reason is cuz I deliberately did all the other optional characters you can talk to have little like markers above their heads so I think players are looking for those markers for characters to talk to you totally and also like he is like if you're just running forward he's like around the corner so like yeah he's standing there's a bunch of people looking at him and he's like by the fountain like yes Here I am but it was it is it is amusing to me how well-hidden he is for literally standing in the middle yeah yeah wearing is underwear yeah that's probably I mean there's other things but I think that's the most fun and then the only other thing would be getting a hang out with some of the voice actors in LA so we've been recording audio for Guild Wars for almost 10 years now and we've made some friendships with some of our actors so yeah here's we went out to dinner with Julian Courtney who were in the cast and yeah that's a bunch of folks who went down for the vo so that's having an appetizer I feel like dinner of Julie's hair in bed with the appetizers yeah so I wish I could remember I think what that place is Commonwealth it's in Burbank anyway it was a great time and yeah really thankful for the cast and the friendships that we've made over the years so some of my favorite things I have I have a quite a few because I had I had the privilege of working on content that was vastly different so I love different things for different reasons mechanically one of my favorite things I did was chapter 10 The Mummy commands where like you can you're controlling individual units to get them to do stuff that took a lot of iteration but people seem to have really liked it for more so much fun yes yeah and then Tom brought this up earlier but the speech in chapter 13 we had to so chapter 13 sorry small victory the very the very end of the game and thing yes the end thing it's too late but so originally the continent we were didn't emphasize the consequences of killing Balthazar quite as much and so in early drafts at the party it was just straight up upbeat like everyone's like this is wonderful you're the greatest and and what happened is once we started emphasizing that like no there's gonna be fallout for this - and unlike mordremoth and unlike sight an you know going in that there's going to be consequences this the party became kind of like we really want to have the sequence we're like you had a chance to decompress but the it became weird because suddenly like you're like well now everyone's trying to throw this maybe this party and I know everything's doomed or everything's bad right not already weird with Ferran in his underwear sorry and there's a lot of I mean it is it is it is I'd say it's it's dark comedy a lot of it right cuz the way that people respond to your speech and like you know that my favorite one is the dude who's like if you give a speech that's really depressing that if you get off the stage and walk by him he's like well you really sucked the fun out of this shindig like ammo at position yeah it's the moment you get off the stage but um the speech was introduced because there was that that conflict between what the player knew and what people on the part the party wanted and as tom was saying like different people were there was disagreement about how much the commander should be a downer and like ruin the party so yeah that true and yeah we rewrote yeah we rewrote the script multiple times and finally I was just like well I mean well you know what it's like last minute but I think we can turn this in the gameplay and we literally implemented the speech like in the last stretch series but it but it was a really good closer so I was very proud of that yeah and you know it was it was a lot of a lot of very close work with narrative to make it happen but what about the DLC that you put in for that oh yeah honestly feel a little bit bad about how that hi so originally this is podium for the speech and there was so I remember like a couple weeks in there was a reddit thread that was like this this podium is an insult to Asura commanders everywhere and should be executed and I'm like oh and there's the screenshot of the podium and like the literal Asura ears are like just barely sticking up behind the podium I'm like right right that's the thing and so I you know reached out and I'm like I know you know I figured out like how to place a box that only showed up if you're an asura and then the art went all out and gave me like a custom box it's like an upside down apple cart and I there's a patch note that was just like added a box for certain commanders to stand on during a key story step and everyone immediately knew what it was about and there were all these other important things in the patch notes but the thread was just like oh my god there's a box now like I don't know really like that box I'm just picturing your desk going I worked so hard on so many other things it's it's a good thing to be provide I mean yeah they were all the other stuff it had its time in the limelight but the Box became like it was was the highlight of that big long patch up for a lot of people was fascinating the Apple boxes Thomas Mann yeah yeah how about you Matthew uh you know in rehearsal I give a really Pat sort of bland answer so I'm gonna change it it was bad but go ahead okay this the crazy idea no that was cool so I won't repeat what Scott said because that that was one of the funnest meetings I think that we've ever had here at you know ArenaNet for for Guild Wars 2 story because sometimes I do have these ridiculous notions in my head that I think there's no way anyone's gonna agree to this right like but I'm like wow what the hell we're all good buddies and let's find out we just hang out and you know have fun in these meetings a lot of the time I mean there are story breaking means or some of the funnest things I mean believe me I've seen the whiteboards oh gosh yeah I wish we could share some of them but they're often inappropriate I've seen those too yeah so for me I I think the the one that now sticks out for me is at the end of your first encounter with Balthazar when you when you climb up on the plateau and you see him there for the first time and the last time you'd seen him he was just sort of like you know wrecking everything and then he peace out and you're like okay clearly there's something you know this is going to be a massive confrontation so you're preparing for it and the herald gets in your way and you know you kind of you have a nice boss fight with her and you you you get past it but when you first are sorry when you first see this all taking place we had talked with our Cinemax team about now we're gonna have this awesome cinematic here because we want to deliver this awesome moment and we knew it wasn't going to be a fight with Belser so we didn't want to let players in on too much yeah so we thought cinema a good sense here and then Moe comes to the project and he says we have too many Cinemax we need to do all this stuff in game and we were like oh okay sure let me just go talk to a half-dozen people but I mean it was it was an awesome experience of how do you do something that we had we had spent a fair amount of time on this cinematic already and I actually think somebody digged it out of our data file so you unofficially can go check it out if you want I feel encouraged yeah yeah but it was a was a fully produced in vacuum it was getting close to finished and so there was a lot of work done on it so like how do we replicate that in game yeah thankfully we we have a team of awesome wizards here on the arc team they worked together prop artists map artists and the cinematics team and the animators and they all basically said all right let's extract this let's import this bring this together put this in we make a gadget out of it you can spawn the gadget in the world click play and all of a sudden we've got a cinematic running in real time in the game it created a little bit of a shenanigans for me in terms of now we have to Balthazar's in the world because we had the one that I had spawned for the encounter and now we have the cinematic version of him and they're sitting beside by side and so I'm like oh that's interesting so I had to move her a lot of things around to make that happen but it's one of those things of like yeah I love that we're a company that constantly challenges ourselves to say hey yeah that's cool because I mean the cinematic is awesome it's beautiful um but to be able to say yeah that's awesome and beautiful I'm not gonna ship it do it again let's make you in a different way yeah because and ultimately in the end that was absolutely the right call because you being able to come up on that scene and run into it and experience that you know awesome yeah I mean you lost a little bit of like obviously you don't lose player camera or see you have to turn your head to look at it but that's where we had map art make sure that you're looking right at it and making sure that all the sight lines we're guiding you towards this moment yeah it's one of the things that really worked out really well and that goes back to what we were talking about in the last segment with there was so many there were a lot of changes and there was so much iteration and everybody came together to make it work yeah you guys should be super super proud of that hey I realized I should have brought this up when talking about the speech because I failed to do it during the rehearsal but do we have the image of the percentages of what people did we do actually of course now I can't find it but yeah there were there were so many choices yeah so the way the speech was actually calculated was again there are different values most people gave upbeat speech which of course worked out great for them when the storm showed up like two seconds later I'm sure they felt great about their choices a couple people gave super downbeat speeches the way it worked is there was a point value assigned to each thing and if you had a majority upbeat I think the last one was worth two and all the other ones were worth one okay have you added majority upbeat you got an upbeat speech hidden majority downbeat you got a downbeat speech if you get it had to be like majority yeah it had vague had to be like it had to be even the most overall right in order to be vague and then confusing was if upbeat and downbeat were tied everyone was just like that I don't know what you're hoping yeah but that's the one where people are like if you were running around out in the party after the speech people like I don't I don't know what you were trying to say but it's a bunch of muckety-muck and am-noon the amnion choices well we tracked what we picked different things only 18 percent of people pick joke or for some reason the floor yeah glorious leadership but the thing that's cool is we had these all tract we were able to call back to them in living world in episode 1 and I actually helped out with a little bit of that and like it very rarely post core game have we had things that we were able to track and loop in to future content so it was nice to be able to do that again having the having some of the living world or having some of the core story things yes lead out into the open world is an element that we've added that I've really enjoyed yes so yeah that was that was my big thing with the chapter 2 choice I have some people is really a choice for EM noon rather than a choice for yourself so like some people are like why didn't it cause my commander to do radically different things but it did change the tone of the city forever and would and I really uh I really enjoyed the fact that like even now whenever I watch a stream like when someone runs through Avenue and I'm like I know what you did did you sold the city out to joke oh are you like you you you went with the Sun spirit even though there's only like three of them but the and then tie me contact points which I also worked on where another instance right it's like there are these things in the open world that advance as you progress with the story and the idea of just like a blurring those lines a little bit right between like the what is happening in the instances and what is happening outside of them so yeah learning Arcana Bureau out with another one change your water flags and doing things like that and I think it's pretty cool to have the city feel different based on what you chose and to have an ambient conversations and all these other things that respond to what you do we actually changed it post-launch because we didn't have the ability to phase out use actual characters they were gadgets pretending to be characters originally and then we got that tack Myers and I went back I know I know Impostors and I went back and changed them all and now actually if you look outside I'm noon occasionally you'll see whatever faction you chose fight off forge protein city so you feel like they're actively contributing to the city not being overrun like everywhere else and path of fire is yeah that's awesome Mathews something we had talked about callbacks in the previous segment also and I wanted to talk about the herald of Balthazar yes so when we Scott had talked about earlier when we decided that yeah we didn't want to have the first confrontation with Balthazar the first 10 minutes of this expansion but we knew we were too building to that we wanted to have this character there Balthasar and initially that was just who you know we were planning to have her be herald number fourteen yeah just a force who happened to have risen to the rank of herald and as we started to get deeper into the story I kind of felt that it would be better for us if we hid the the identity of this character as an actual character from Guild Wars one and so we talked about who that could be and I had pitched this idea that it would be davana DiBona if you don't know if you've not followed Guild Wars one she was one of the henchmen in the early game she would come with you on your adventure she was a great hero wielded a hammer sometimes she had a sword and shield but she was a warrior and so she was one of the people who would come out with you in the instance maps of the original game and so in thinking about it I was sort of struck by the fact that as a warrior she would absolutely have been a follower of Balthazar clearly it's been and I presumably had gone into the mist to fight in the eternal war yeah alongside Balthazar so when Balthazar returns and begins and goes to make his forged army it would make sense for him that he would draw from that ghostly army to take those spirits and put them into forged bodies and so and it was also the case so we didn't really have any other examples of forged who we could identify with so we kind of wanted to have her be somewhat of an important character but not be upfront in in your face with it so we constructed this you know sort of secret identity if you will and I was able to lay lay in some little Easter eggs that ended up being an achievement and one of the story instances that sort of confirms her identity and we didn't say anything more about it and we try to keep it a secret and let the fans and the players who dig deeper and and kind of put all the pieces together and I I it it was only a couple months I think before the first person through Devon his name out and like they're onto it it's funny I think I don't know when we officially confirmed it but like the wiki page is rich in like it's like here's the bonus story and at the bottom it's like devs davana is based on speculation to me this means now now it's okay say it actually is devoted and yeah I remember I we had talked about how you didn't want to be super super overt about it right and I remember I was I had I was running through it with a couple different guild mates a couple different times and I was trying so hard to lead them without telling them I was like what is she feeling listen to what she's saying oh god you guys come on yeah that was one of the ones that we one of the specific clues was we we had we took lines that she had specifically said in guilders one because they had battle chatter back then and so we threw that in as a specific line that she says again and in this just as another you know sort of over callback without it being too over like you had to get really deep in the lore and understand the character and have spent a lot of time with that character to probably have keyed in on it but we wanted to have that connective tissue yeah and you pulled back a little bit on that like with her hammer I had heard yes in the original version of the fight the final fight with her on the on the top of the plateau you she would sometimes drop the hammer and you could run over and pick it up and smash her with it and we will we like that from a mechanical standpoint at least on paper because we wanted you know she had spent two instances smashing you over the head with a mirror like we definitely want you to have that moment of like no you get a taste of your own seriously and it's very Witcher yeah all of our weapons at least on the back end for us we have a name field who can fill it in so I put I made the hammer named Mordecai after her father because I thought that's exactly what she would name her hammer she had a good relationship with her father it was it was you know they had a nice repartee and then in the back and she was always sort of devoted to her father so I thought it'd be fitting and so while we had that in the game it's not something we ended up shipping because there was a lot of problems with the hammer specifically players carrying it outside the instance against our wishes so we couldn't protect against that in every case so we get yanking it out but why we're really if you looked in the combat log which a lot a lot of people don't necessarily look at the combat log while they're fighting especially for PvE but you would have seen you know you were doing damage with Mordecai for certain skills so it could have been this might be more for you but again calling back to the iteration and working through bumps in the road during development her voice acting was a little bit off and we had to work yeah yeah well yeah her Wow that character was really hard to get right or as close to right as we needed her dialogue went through I don't know how many rewrites you know because she was a really important character in the first the first then what the fourth story chapter that first third and fourth yeah so you know she's around enough that we really need to make sure that when whatever she has to chime in not only is she saying the kind of things that we need her to to progress the story and but also just sound good to the ear let's just say and well I think first we had a different I don't remember if we had a different accurate recast yeah precaster we recast her and then this is an act an actor who we had used a long time ago and I don't think we had had back but we figured that she had played in noir and I think previously so we brought her back to do a human voice and yet there was a lot of rewrites and yeah I gotta say that I'm glad that we spent a lot of time trying to get it right because I think if we hadn't done that that that amount of extensive revision it would have been not good I think that definitely calls back to what tom was talking about earlier regards to I think it's that's another case where I think our communication probably was not ideal in that we probably didn't properly sort of convey who the herald was a character yeah enough for them to cast her proper rank because what we got back was very different from what I think any of us had envisioned and I think it's just we had never gave it welcome a that well to be fair I think her character evolved a lot in that it did we were working on it did well so like her actual like personality and how devoted what she was and how happy she was to be murdering all these people there's a point where she's like yeah murder people's great this is my duty right yeah this is a matter of Honor and I think that was also part of the Devonta change but yeah when we decided hey this is going to actually be Devon because I had floated that and it was sort of on the fence for a long time out by the way we'd actually pulled the trigger on that and we decided yeah let's we're okay with this that was definitely when we were like okay we can't have her be bloodthirsty in the same way like she is still you know a forged and so she has to have a certain lethal nough stew her but this is somebody who has been corrupted and perverted from what her heroic status was so we kind of had to find that nice balance I think we struck it I think we needed to get at the fact that deep down inside this shell of a armor it was somebody kind of struggling to get out and it didn't really want to be doing the things that she was doing yeah geez down yes my I mean I love the moment where at the end she's like she finally breaks down and is like show that you're better kill my god right like that moment would not have worked if not here all those iterations however if we do have a Davone align about yeah killing people is great I would love to have that I'm sure we got it somewhere we've got that actual line somewhere in VO if you could give that to me later I would love that I'm sure we haven't been the depot somewhere please continuing on the theme of iteration mummy command right changed yes so mummy command has quite a lineage and I need a credit everyone involved so it started out as the the the original mechanics were like you said create a ohi's and any the mummies will attack anything in the AoE that was made by lisa davis who was very talented designer who worked on the open world lena who was here and as a designer I basically took oh it ended up taking over a lot of her content yeah actually uh she then was like this is great and you know we've got this chapter that is about you know taking taking control of the awakened I am going to lift these mechanics and modify them and put them in and then I came on and I'm like I'm gonna blow it up and do it same idea originally it was in the in the when I inherited it it was more tower-defense II like the fort's were coming towards you and then you you just were trying to get them keep them from going into Hogan's camp okay but we reversed it so that you're leading the to do a raid on the Forge because that felt more active and then we modified the mechanics so you had more fine-grained control because we really wanted you to feel like yeah I'm giving a orders to these individual awakened and so the metaphor we pay I picked was Pikmin this sort of like you find mummies around and you collect them and then the more mummies you have the stronger you are and and then mechanics continue to evolve from there mo is big on the idea that like hey like yes this is like one instance but like if you've got the all these different things I can do I should need to use all of them and so the fact that we introduced like forged that had like you know like magnetic Forge that repel like ranged attacks right and added a bunch of things to really like forcing you to engage with the mechanics as as deeply as you'd want and then the big one was we it was a big debate about whether or not we should have a heal skill because eventually we removed it but like it fell bad to have your mummies die for a long time and so but but having a heal skill resulted in you standing around and like healing all your mummies after every small encounter and that didn't feel very good so we wounded up really leaning into the mummies are disposable right like they're they're weak they die easily but you can you can get more if you like backtrack or press ahead and that wound up being the right balance so yeah in dancing dancing was shortly after path fire came out someone uploaded a music video of I don't know the actual name of the song but it's something about like as it talks about being like an li d of OT or something but that might actually be the name of song but it's just the great thing about it is other players also get turned into mummies so they had the other players doing dance moves that the mummies don't do normally like off in specific positions like the moment when I figured that out was so much fun playing because I'm okay they're falling into position I mean there's a very specific line up yeah formations are very wonder and I had that moment of we did it we actually did it so yeah there's a dance Easter egg in chapter 13 - yeah yeah yeah there's specific place where if you dance in the party every sub buddy else at the party starts even like it be awakened if you pick the joke olfaction turn towards you they watch you for a little bit and then spreading outwards from you they all start dancing where is this place it's in front of the stage where the band plays yeah yeah alright I haven't tried that but I will yeah figuring out what to do with other players in on instance owners was a whole thing because we like again like in but when you die when one of our chapters is literally the main character dies what do you do with everybody else yeah I struggled with the one I had the most trouble with it with and I'm I I think what we did was was okay was in another part of chapter 10 that the Beast catch where yeah yeah where am i jumping ahead yeah you know whatever yes the Beast catch basically there's this thing where like the main character needs to you was designed so they have to drain enemies in the environment in order to catch up to this creature that's particularly fast I actually had the max speed for a creek no not yet no I actually had the max potential speed for creatures raised because I had to get the creature that was faster than the mounts in order to make you have to speed up to catch up to it yeah there is holiness there's this whole like there's this whole life look into look into the code and see if the game would explode if we raised max creature speed and she's like it was that it was a horrible ordeal to making time in our run ahead yeah I might still explode yeah maybe I maybe in a couple weeks someone will pull me into an office and be like you destroyed guild wars I'll be like I'm gonna give you my own call schedule but one of the things we had to do was other players couldn't just mount up because they would just wouldn't be fast enough if I gave them the same drain ability then they would kill could potentially kill the things the main character had to drain before they got them and also just clogged with screen and make it harder to see the the thing that they actually needed which it was worst yes so I decided to transform them and I tried into like basically ghosts that could run really fast or creatures that can run really fast and originally they were the same sort of wisps as in chapter 9 sorry the when you die yeah but the problem with that was when you're going that fast if you have no direction-- you're facing you end up veering off course and running into walls a lot and people generally had a miserable time then I tried human ghosts which is actually what we wound up going back to and chipping human ghosts that I call crackdown ghosts because they can the whole like if anyone's played crackdown them one of the defining things you can jump insanely high and like land and you feel super powerful about that so there's basically ghosts that could run insanely fast and uh and jump insanely high but you know there was art had the comment which is fair that like these characters have legs and their legs were not designed to go that quickly the animations are like did it right yes so I tried some other creatures turning you into some other creatures and as the video spoiled one of the attempt mark yeah yeah it's a good we tried ghost Toya because Troy is start rolling when they move you can't okay yeah the issue with it is like they didn't really roll all the time they sometimes so sometimes they just wobble around yeah you can see there and then when they rolled it look great it's so real um and when you use the skill which you can't see here but it was originally called the chorus of ghost Toya or like cheetah skill or encouragement of the ghost joy at it then it gave a speed boost in your Troy would like bang on their chest narrative didn't like it for some reason and well you remember you tried to sell this one is like how do you feel about you know I don't remember how you phrase it ghost joy I say I didn't beat about the bush I was just like how do you feel about ghost I'm like how do I feel about them being used how you know and then it was this whole thing I'm like do we really need I'm like I know when you kill them they explode into like fruit slices we're not really sure for them being what's their afterlife about I'm like do we really need to be answering this question oh you know what have them like yet but there's as fun as that would be I just really don't think it makes a lot of sense and ghosts humans worked fine it goes trial would have been too goofy but I am I'm glad we tried it because it was hilarious will you try gin - yeah I tried gin and Jim can't jump probably because they don't have legs but like yeah like if I transform you into a gin like about my solution was I my first thought was like well if the legs look goofy when you're moving too fast I'll just turn you into something that doesn't have lesser legs but then like you were just stuck on the ground and it felt really bad and also the gin when they attacked they did this like I don't know like ever about to do a dance and their arms stayed up for like way too long okay like I yeah so ghost the ghost didn't do anything weird like that I feel like you've read so many obstacles over the course of like two weeks yes like it was there was a thing of like I mean when you we do design story content for single-player first because most people play it one person right but then we really want to still make it an enjoyable spirit experience when other people are coming in and it just so happened that that chapter was one of the harder ones to figure out yeah for how to hit both of those things yeah you could just spawn more like creatures to drain you know use the event scaling or something like that yeah I maybe but like then it's like there's still the problem clogging up the screen well those are they yeah yeah yeah we do have performance perfect yeah I remember those tests those were super fun oh god they were not just in case your sarcasm was that clear notes perf was super fun guy well is there anything else that you guys want to cover because I know you also need to get back to work and I've made you wait even longer did did we I can't we didn't talk about this in rehearsal do we get the been so long yeah I mean I could talk about it but I donno if we have the video for the Balthasar one-on-one we don't have the video talk about it anyway because it's funny so yeah yeah as we alluded to earlier when we first come up on Balthazar we obviously didn't want to have the player have any sort of really meaningful like we didn't want that to be the boss fight because like you don't want to have the boss fight with the main bad guy of your game you know before you been getting to the first third so we came up with a lot of different ideas and it was frustrating it was there was a lot of back-and-forth a lot of design work and narrative and MO and you know there was just a lot of competing sort of thoughts going on and I was kind of frustrated and it was it was late one day and I was like you know what I like you know fun goofy stuff too so I just in my test map whipped up a very quick example of Balthazar and a dance-off and so in my test map you can do slash dance and you know you point at Balthazar and then you call him out and then he points back at you and then the music drops and then the two of you basically just do it that's right at that point he was on the human rig yeah he had all the human yes all the human dance moves yeah although waiting is all synced up and everything all the awakened are on the Norn rig which made like that's why they turned into awakened you can do all the emotes which is a lot of fun yeah oh you know I did have something I wanted to mention um so the stuff on the cutting room floor in terms of the story structure we went back and forth I don't know how many times about where to do certain reveals in the story like chapter 7 you know when you go and meet Cormier originally was I think a cinematic and that got cut and we had to knock our heads together with you with Connie but like well how do we take this gigantic moment and you know pace it out and and all that so but I think the one thing that really sticks out is writ Locke man we had to fight to figure out how best to get him to come clean with the player and I think I think originally we it was in something like either in chapter 6 or chapter seven as you're going through in the tomb he's like by the way I'm going to tell you about something that's completely unrelated to what we're doing now and because it was we kept struggling to find a good moment and I think we decided to just spread it out between you know a couple of different chapters so we're now I think the moment comes across a lot better where you're in this showdown with Balthazar and you know players basically getting up in his face and Balthasar is like alright you know I'm gonna kick your ass and oh by the way char you all spare buddy you know and the players are your cool what's he talking about like fret and then lights everybody up and I think the way that kind of came it felt like it he didn't actually come out of nowhere we did a couple of things to lead up to that moment but I think it was a lot more powerful that we put it there and got it done and out of the way yeah totally rather than stringing it along really it was yeah it was a big struggle to figure out what like it was there's there's talk of cutting that cinematic and we were like that's that's our reveal of like yeah that one yeah well you can see how RIT Lockwood feel awkward about saying this yeah and I'm the bad guy out yeah and just hear me out so to be clear I'm not throwing you out as long as you want to tell secrets I'll listen yeah but if there's if you guys have covered everything I'm also good yeah I mean I'll just chiming on that one in terms of like yeah that one moved several times like it started I believe in seven we pushed it back to six no we pitched it back to five where he's gonna confess after you defeat the in glints lair yeah and then I didn't feel right because it was like what does that have to do with glint and all that like there was just so many things they were like alright well then let's just get it out of the way let's put it in one and he's just gonna confess spontaneously we tried putting on six as well well yeah right before we going in the myths it's like wait yeah I have something to tell you before we go yeah that's right do some friends uh-huh yeah yes I mean we had rational decisions from all these steps but no we're like we never really ever moved to the point where Balthazar says I'm gonna spare you and so it's like okay that's the point at which I think we absolutely just everything kind of all like and relaxed not the kind of guy who would belabor a point right like he's very upfront straightforward so like the minute you confront him about it he I think he's all right I was gonna say it if you didn't thank you for calling me a liar again you could see how he'd feel awkward about saying it yeah what a mess my dot belaboring the point it wasn't important until that moment and true yes I think he had run out of room well yeah he kept he kept ghosting players on that whole thing what actually that was even at the start of chapter at the end of chapter happened in Chapter 1 yeah and first meet ret lock and you see him for the first time and back in the desert you're like oh what are you doing here right like interesting like we didn't have and I kept pushing to put this in that moment of the player I want I always want our commander to kind of speak on behalf of the player who's my keyboard as well because like I think a lot of our players I don't ever want to feel like I'm insulting their intelligence they're going to want to have certain things so like as a player I'm like there's no way I'm not going to call him out yeah like the first time I see him after you know him being dragged away I'm like you need to come straight with me so you know but we obviously didn't want to have that moment there so when you do that he's like look I get it you're gonna know right like because I wanted to make sure that players knew at the end of chapter in the 6 p.m. and they wouldn't have to sit too long for it yes they'd already waited long enough I think oh it was funny too because they played the the demo and yeah they're like way to slap us in the face a met Jesus again yeah and you know we were kind of sitting here like no no but yeah I do I appreciate the player character in that case speaking on behalf of the player behind the keyboard saying you know you've you've been saying later cub for a very long time and it's time you need to you need to stop putting us off yeah yeah I do you feel like do you feel happy with the way that concluded I do I think it was as well as we could execute on that moment I mean I've seen multiple streams where like people are playing the game and they're enjoying it and then during the scene with RIT lock they're like oh this there's their soul you know like that it's the first it's been it's a good beat of them being like there's some the characters are seriously tied to this story or some of them yeah it's it's more woven yeah as opposed to just a series of events you're what there was talk about start doing it as a playable experience but that ran into so many crazy ad like play Israel yeah and because no sort of like okay we've done that before where we portray uh Keith but like we had a mechanic why that was the case that you were you know planting these memories seeds and like that doesn't work for char like so what is that is it we didn't want to just do a flashback barren oh god yeah not soon enough crazy idea I know a guy yeah so here's a crazy idea let's do it as a fractal oh did I okay I'm I'm happy because I really like that idea well you know okay we can always go talk to that team after this you do that I will be in the opposite direction why isn't there enough Lord Ferran cosplay I'm just wondering putting that out the community to work and a lot of tanning oil that is correct I'll Orin I could come as that for Karen not the costume contest so yeah let it let a core muscle work yeah no I believe middle aged Ferran there you go I don't have the hair though thank you guys very very much thank you at your time thank you all for spending some time with us and we will see you on the next game