Talk:Aid Worker Sya

It's about time we were represented in GW2  :) -Kristy Dragonslayer

I have a friend who can't visit Fort Marriner without running up to this NPC and /cheering. :p --Idris (talk) 07:32, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't know where else I could say this, but the dialogue between Sya and Lionguard Hela is just perfect. It's so well done and tasteful. Whoever is responsible for this, thank you. <3 Aethling (talk) 22:12, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Just so excited to see LGBT characters ESPECIALLY transgender character (as they are even more rare) in video games! Especially ones like Gw2. MMOs and such. I just want to run up to her and give her a big hug!!! 67.5.207.206 19:53, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Feedback 2017/10/19

when discussing sya's past as "symon", her correct pronouns should still be used (for an example, see wikipedia's article on laverne cox (or any trans individual, really)). 107.4.235.24 23:41, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. --Idris (talk) 00:12, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Deadname

I don't see any benefit from including it in the main section of the article. It's in her dialogue, and in the archived dialogue at Aid Worker Sya/dialogue. Including the fact that she's trans should be enough. The image has some potential merit due to the dyes used, but I would still prefer removing it and mentioning her former outfit as Whisper's_Secret_armor_(medium) instead. horrible | contribs 22:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

For a few reasons I think this would be a bad idea.

1) This wiki aims to document a game as a matter of fact; it is simply factual (and written clearly) that this person *was* someone by another name.

2) If we take assumed personal feelings into account; Sya flat out brings up he previous name as Symon where it could easily have been kept as a taboo thing and just said something like "I had another name before".

3) Given that this person doesn't seem to want to "hide" or diminish this transition, I don't see why the wiki should do the same by removing game information.

If the intent had been to act like the previous self was to be buried and forgotten (as I've now learned some people do in such cases), then it would have been brought up very differently in game.

This really just feels like assuming an *NPCs* personal feelings based off what may be personal experience. The subject was presented in-game with no twists, turns, or cloaking so I really don't see why it should be done on the wiki. -Darqam 23:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The initial paragraph is designed to be a summary of all information known (for NPCs, often a lore situation unless mechanics are very important); removing information from it for RL political reasons would be diminishing the unbiased nature of fact presentation that all wikis should, imo at least, be held to the standard of. Hiding information in archives is not acceptable behavior of wikis - hence why other NPCs like Braham, for example, have details of Season 1 on the front and center of the page, and not kept away solely at Braham/dialogue.

As to the armor - no reason to mention what they are in Trivia as we do elsewhere, but also no reason to remove anything at present.

If a transgender individual comes up and says the presentation can be depicted as insulting, then that would merit a rewriting. But until such times, let's not remove things based on "what if we're not sensitive enough". Konig (talk) 23:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) It's more to mirror how one should handle real-world scenarios. Even if the Sya NPC in-game is open enough about it, it's generally extremely disrespectful to use someone's deadname, regardless of the context. While we absolutely have a duty to document the game, I feel that can be stretched a little in order to acknowledge and show some respect for real-world trans people.

related question, is there any precedent with less important name changes? It would help a decision either way if there is one. The only name change that spring to mind for me is Gwen, though that's just the addition of a surname (and isn't reflected by any in-game NPC name). Jalis and Keiran sometimes have different names in instances, but that's more of an anomaly than a name change. horrible | contribs 23:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Felix actually brought up a great point off wiki (I hope they doesn't mind me stating it here). Why not make use of this page to present the ties to real life. Keeping the article as a mater-of-fact, since it documents the game, but explaining in the notes how changing a name for someone transgender can be of significant importance. As well, the possible 'faux-pas' of making use of their previous name.

With this in mind, imo the page should stay as is, or similar to given it's simply a description of in-game events as presented by in-game information; but the page also allows one to learn more about the real world issue tied in to this. Granted we wouldn't want to make a book out of it; however it should still be possible to make a nice concise explanation of the importance of a name (and appearance?) change for transgenders. If this is done however, it would also be important to not make sweeping statements and simply bring the idea in mind to the readers. These people can then choose to either read more elsewhere online or ignore it and move along. -Darqam 23:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Horrible: Hero-Tron is probably the single biggest precedent we have for less-important name changes - Tanetris (talk) 23:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, forgot about Hero-Tron. It feels to me like a bit of a tough fit given how he changes names to fit each role? not sure overall. horrible | contribs 23:56, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

A better analogy might be Scarlet Briar. By the way, I'm currently chatting with a trans friend to see what she makes of this discussion; will post a more in-depth comment in a bit. —Idris 00:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I floated this discussion past a trans friend of mine: she's a GW2 player, is familiar with this character, and asked me to type up her thoughts on her behalf (though she's vetted this comment prior to posting). Overall, she feels torn on the matter -- she understands the need to document properly, but it does make her feel a little uncomfortable to see the deadname and pre-transition image. She feels it's ok for the character herself to announce her own deadname, but it's not as ok for us to do it. That said, she thinks the current state of the article is acceptable, as it's clear we're only mentioning pre-transition stuff for documentation's sake, rather than acting as though this is still who the character is or making a circus out of her transness. If she had free reign over the article, she'd be inclined to remove the deadname, though she's torn on whether she would remove the image or just hide it in some manner so it doesn't automatically display. —Idris 00:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm a gay fella myself, but my brother is a trans male. I asked him about this page, when I saw this discussion. His response was that he doesn't want people to pretend that his past didnt exist, that that's a massive part of his identity and his history. He doesn't expect our family and I to take down or destroy any photos we have of him pre-transition, as they still reflect his journey. Which all of us embrace and accept. His issue with deadnaming, is when its used as a rebuttal and refusal to accept who he is and as a way of trying to push him back into a role and a gender he was never at peace within. I asked him to look at this page and he says it's clear that the reference is a factual reference to the character's history within the game, as is the image. That it's not attempting to push the character back into a previous identity or reject who they are, but rather embracing the evolution of the character's identity and self image over time. He personally said, he thinks the article is fine... however he also made it clear that he does not speak on behalf of the trans community and isn't a token spokesperson on trans issues. As an aside to this, he doesn't really play MMO's hes more an FPS fella... but he was very moved by the fact that their is a character that just happens to be trans within the game and having the history of the character explained on the page, was something he found personally quite touching.

Anyway just thought I would pass that info along aswell, as I dont want to talk on behalf of the trans community. -- Salome 01:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Based on this discussion, how would everyone feel about the following changes to the article:

• remove the name Symon from the header by changing ...she shed her former name, Symon, and ... to ...she shed her former name, and ...', but linking to the dialogue below.
• remove the image, but add the following note: During the Battle for Lion's Arch, Sya had the same appearance as Agent Jansen. (I just logged in to confirm the model is the same)

I understand the importance of documenting the past, and feel that these changes result in no loss of information while improving the respectfulness of the article. This is a scenario where I feel it's beneficial to be overly sensitive than than not sensitive enough. horrible | contribs 01:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

The only thing I can chip in here is for the image: we do document what NPCs used to look like in the past if they go and change appearance by adding what they used to look like as an additional image on the page. - Do_odleplex 01:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

This article appears to me very factual and aimed at documenting facts. A fact is that Sya used to be known as Symon. Horrible's suggestion, while more polite and respectful of the emotions surrounding deadnames, also feels like awkwardly beating-around-the-bush and dodging the issue. ArenaNet decided that Sya would openly declare her deadname. She has no problem mentioning it, and if this is emphasized in the main section of the article, it should clear everything up for those concerned.

As a note: If I ever ran across a page like this where the NPC mentioned their deadname but the deadname wasn't mentioned anywhere else on the page, it would strike me as odd and I might even add it in if I didn't know that deadnames were significant. I think adding a note about the significance of deadnames (and maybe linking to a wikipedia page about deadnames, if they have one) and maaybe mentioning that the GW2W intends no disrespect is sufficient. (I dislike that last bit because the wiki is supposed to be unbiased and factual, and it just feels unneccessary, but do what you will.) ~~TiffanySmith.8216 01:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @Horrible: "This is a scenario where I feel it's beneficial to be overly sensitive than than not sensitive enough." Being too sensitive risks causing as much harm as being too insensitive. I think it's fine (in so far as no need to remove anything), and we have two indirect comments from transgender people saying it's fine, and their views seem to be on opposite sides of the spectrum if I'm understanding Idris' and Salome's recounting correctly. Besides, in your suggestions, you're just adding needless extra effort for saying and showing the exact same thing - anyone who finds the current setup offensive will no doubt find that suggestion offensive too. In fact, I think it risks being more offensive as it effectively says "Sya used to look like this guy here", though I can only speak in hypotheticals there, much like you I believe. Konig (talk) 01:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Friend says she thinks Horrible's suggestions are fine, as the info will still be there but not as in-your-face for trans folks who can't handle seeing it. Personally, my opinion is similar to Salome's brother; I think Sya's past is part of who her character is, acknowledgement of it was intended by the (trans!) dev who added her, and I feel the article is well-balanced right now. Edit: In retrospect, not especially helpful for me to rehash the same point others have covered multiple times already. —Idris 02:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I asked my brother again, he said that he doesn't really mind the picture, but he knows it might bother some people. However for the wording he said "she shed her former name..." bit at the start could probably be dropped, as its contained again within the main text. He also said however, that although the changes are good intentioned. One might have to be careful with the removal, as it could be seen as removing and censoring a story about someone happily transitioning and embracing their identity... which as someone who has just been exposed to the story; he says having a story about someone who embraces their true self and happily transitions, is actually very affirming and welcomed. I think its clearly a very complex issue.

On a personal note, I do think the problem we might run into down the line, if we do remove stuff... is that editors and contributors may add stuff back again, acting totally in good faith, believeing the ommission is accidental rather than a deliberate re-wording. However that is a very hypotetical concern and not one that i think should swing anyones oppinion. -- Salome 02:48, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not overly concerned about these changes being seen as erasure; we've got "trans" as the 6th word in the article, with a wikipedia link to a related article. Editors re-adding this information also seems like a forward enough fix to me; it should be simple to point them to the talk page here in such an event. horrible | contribs 02:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) That's not too big a deal as I think it would be corrected in fairly short order, but we can certainly include a <!-- hidden note --> pointing to this talk page section and/or briefly explaining why we've chosen to format the article however we do. - Felix Omni 02:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I would like to link to Wikipedia's stance on gender identity as it may be useful over here as well. ❄The F. Prince❄ (talk) 07:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a good starting point, but we need to be better than wikipedia; a lot of articles on there suffer from the editors' biases, and this is especially true for their articles on trans people - comparing the articles for several prominent trans people shows a vast difference in approaches to this matter. horrible | contribs 12:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I've spoken with a real trans woman who used to play gw2, and she feels that deadnaming someone solely for the purpose of documenting something that is already contained in the article as a direct quote seems unnecessary and potentially cruel. horrible | contribs 20:45, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

As a trans woman myself, I'm serious considering removing her deadname since it adds nothing to the lore. She's trans and that's all that needs to be there. HeroineDark (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Also if your case is to "preserve the past"...the past is preserved in the history logs of the page. Let's remove it and move forward. Cis people need to stop speaking over direct trans voices in the community on this one. HeroineDark (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd argue that the name does add to the lore, and I'd also argue for the inclusion of the former name in the biography section even if it would be left out from the introductory paragraph below the quote. First, we have no known lore that trans people on Tyria have the same issues with deadnames like people on Earth do (at least until some narrative devs decide to expand lore on trans characters); after all, Tyrians seem pretty chill about gays too as per Ree Soesbee's interview (even if homosexuality isn't that common in Tyria) given how many happy gay characters and couples we've had and how no one on Tyria bat an eye on e.g. Kas and Jory's relationship, so there's no reason why trans people would feel excluded either. In fact, Sya openly referencing being once called Symon (instead of just using some roundabout way to mention she was that Whispers agent the Commander had met months ago) when talking with the Commander would suggest to me that at least she has no issue with referencing her former identity even if she's embraced her true self now. Second, we've had differing opinions from the editors in this wiki; some editors' trans and nonbinary friends have had no issues mentioning Symon's name on the page while others do, so finding the deadname problematic isn't universal. Given that Sya was added by a trans dev who was okay with referencing Sya's deadname in her writing, as such removing it from the biography feels a bit iffy to me and seems to go counter to the dev's wishes for the character. Third, openly referencing Sya's transition with the deadname is important for this character's development and the progression of Lion's Arch's rebuilding as a whole: it was only after witnessing the horrific destruction of Scarlet's campaign and having a heartfelt talk about love with her fellow Whispers operative that made Symon realize that she could embrace herself as Sya and remind others that life is too short for us not to embrace our true selves. With all that said, however, if several people do feel the name being problematic, I'm fine with leaving the article as it is since Symon will still be mentioned in the NPC's documented dialogue, so any curious reader can still find it there even if the biography section doesn't contain it. But no dev at ANet, or any wiki editor, ever intended the article to be a "cruel" representation of trans characters; in fact, the page is a celebration for Tyrians' resilience and individuality as I've seen quite a few people view the page in a positive light while taking no issue with deadnaming etc. Just my two cents as a lore focused editor. :) --Kossage (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

"some editors' trans and nonbinary friends have had no issues mentioning Symon's name on the page while others do" that's like a cis het man saying "oh my gay friend said it is ok for me to say f*ggot". Or a white person saying "my black friend said I can say [n-word here]". You have trans community of editors saying it is wrong, and it is better to remove it. The lore is preserved in the archives, that should be enough. Also the Dev who added her, may not have had total control over her dialogue. (This is HeroineDark on a friend's pc... anon sig) 98.203.248.233 21:35, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Now I'll actually sign it HeroineDark (talk) 04:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wording

"Sya decided to embrace life in full, and publicly transitioned to her true self."
This sounds really vague, like it's out of Persona. Shouldn't it say "true gender"? I thought it was verbatim at first but she never says "true self". 77.165.250.227 18:54, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Because saying "true gender" would imply a "false gender" and limp into transphobic territory similar to how the discussion ^ went. HeroineDark (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)