Guild Chat - Episode 23
Guild Chat - Episode 23
The 23rd episode of Guild Chat aired on November 20, 2015.
"Host Rubi Bayer is joined by Narrative Director Leah Hoyer, Narrative Lead Bobby Stein, Game Designers Jason Reynolds and Crystal Reid to talk about Spirit Vale, the first wing of the new Raid."
Below is the raw unformatted transcript from Youtube.
happy friday guys and welcome back to guild chat i'm your host ruby um it's sure to be a boring show because we're all very straight laced today and very serious and not at all acting silly um we will start talking about raids here in just a second i have a couple things to tell you guys first stick around after the show is over because we're debuting our pvp league show on point with jebrow and herrick's and it's gonna be really good uh jebrow and herrick's have both been working hard to prepare for it so i'm excited to see what they have to say we also have an awesome winter's day look to the set that you might notice and we're starting a little bit before thanksgiving just because i am 8bit who we've been working with for some great guild wars 2 merchandise has debuted a couple new things just in time for winter's day we have the amazing holiday sweatshirt for divorce 2 with our little quaggan i know i love her she's so happy to get her gift this is i've been saying all day this is like the most comfortable thing i have ever had i know ugly christmas sweaters are like the thing but we went with a holiday sweatshirt instead for comfort so you can check out i am 8-bit store and get that for yourself we also have a holiday plush quaggan so i'll have mark push the quaggan button look at that isn't that the greatest this is adorable yeah you haven't seen that yet i have not seen it yet right it's a surprise for me yeah so these are on i am 8-bit store now so get your very own because they are so cute and they are so squishy and snuggly we have one on set we don't have them in yet last time we at least got like the little we got like the little prototype of the regular guy not right now so that's all the cool stuff we have that's not raids this this f i keep wanting to say this morning it's just it's very early for me apparently it's no longer morning no no so we'll just talk about if you're in hawaii good morning there we go while i try to figure out what time it is we can talk about raids i'll let you guys introduce yourselves uh crystal you just introduced me you were taking too long oh sorry i told you it's a very serious show today ouch my name is crystal reed and i'm a game designer and i'm the team lead on the raids uh my name is jason reynolds i'm also apparently the sas king and a designer on the range i'm leah hoyer uh narrative director here at arenanet uh which as we'll talk about has some impact on raids so just a tiny bit just a tiny bit yeah so i know a lot of you guys have been getting your faces smashed in um per collins prediction everybody's getting their faces smashed but there's a lot more going on than just smacking around the bosses and vice versa i mean there was there's a little bit of story and one of the things that we've been talking about is how you manage to make that work we've got the raid design and then we have story that needs to kind of relate to the maine guild wars 2 story but not completely spoil it and intertwine because you've got certain groups of players here that we're working with so how did you guys how did you make those two work together for starters well for starters and we just came up with this crazy really high level story and we went to leah we're like we have like these ideas and she's like okay we can work with this we have to dial it back but a lot of it was we just gave them the high level direction that we would like to go and we thought would be interesting to have the encounters in these type of things and then from there yeah because i think probably even to take a bit of a step back obviously like we're coming out of hot hopefully most of you have played it and played through a lot of the story and of course our model of kind of continuing ongoing story isn't changing you know we've got a sense of like we put a big nice chunk of story out there but now we're going to spend some time in maguma sort of diving into that further and and and so the next several releases that are coming out are we going to have these great raids that are we wanted to have continue that story and so yeah we were looking at look we know we'd love to have these kind of fights we'd love to have these sorts of bosses and the narrative team also knew that we wanted to sort of start weaving in some new elements of story and so we started to really look back and forth like oh yeah there could be that great awesome boss that does this kind of thing and here's maybe some great way to tie it into all the stuff that we want to do and it's actually been a really fun challenge to figure out how to weave story into raids in the right way i mean we've had many many conversations about that sort of thing so yeah it was it was a fun process but yeah you guys came said hey here's a b and c that we'd love to do and we were like yeah that seems like it totally could work over here a little bit and starting to balance the skills with the kind of things that largely we're telling a lot of story ambiently so you know that was how do we do that in such a way that that made that really work but i'm excited yeah yeah i think that's the great way we've been able to make the narrative work in the raids uh because we knew from the get-go that it was out of scope for us to have any kind of like story instances we're like okay well how do we tell the story inside the raids uh without your standard type of you know single-player story instance but then um like have all these like little little narrative bits like seated throughout and how does this all tell a cohesive story yeah because you know a person playing a raid doesn't want to stop and have a one-minute conversation with you know uh and you also don't want to wait for the person to having them nbc who's like giving you an interesting lore dump that's certainly what we wanted to avoid for raids you know well and you've got a certain kind of player that's in there when you're doing raids and it's if you're going into a raid if you're taking your group in and you're going in there you're after there's a certain kind of game play you're after and you don't want it to be on one hand you don't want it to be just static you know here's this cardboard cutout monster that i have to hit until it falls down you want something going on you want a reason for being in there but like you said if you're that kind of player that's going in there you're in there for one thing primarily so you can't have a story taking over but it's i don't know it sounds like it took a long time to get that balance um i mean i think we had good instincts i mean these two folks are really they're experienced raiders kind of first and foremost too so you know speaking to people who know just truly understand what people really come to raids for it's not like the narrative team had yes yeah you know tomes and tomes of text that you can read places you know we we knew really early on that what we didn't want to do was was put in lots and lots and lots of lord dump that was never going to be the point the point was though giving it a nice context that does relate to where we're going and what we want to do and and starting to reveal certain elements of the story and so i think we started off with the sense that you know probably less is more and i think that was a really good maxim across you know just all the stuff we're doing in raids is like okay yeah let's make the awesome super challenging group to give that gameplay to give it some meaning we absolutely wanted to do some you know some play around with yeah hey let's start to see this idea because this is going to be super cool and maybe there's a hint of this over here so that that sort of stuff um were really where the refinements i think went in yeah so you have this whole world you have 250 years of lore that you're building on but again you can't do the big lure dump how do you how did you use that as a foundation without letting it totally take over wow how do i answer these things without spoiling stuff that's an interesting thing that i cannot wait to find out i think like with pretty much everything that we do obviously there's such a long history because yeah there are 250 years of sort of from when we started guild wars as an actual franchise but even then the the story and the lore and the backstory go back even further than that so there's always an element of what we're doing and when we come to maguma i think some of the the things that people have responded to in the heart of thorns story is the fact that oh wow well we started to do all these things and we've now we've gone and we've found new enemies we found new locations we have you know the golden city and we have red and novus and all this sort of stuff and it's like and we've just we've barely kind of scratched the surface and absolutely we've barely scratched the surface it's not like there's not more to tell but so the point is we've been seeding a lot of things for a while and now it's like how do you put that next piece of all the kind of inner woven storytelling that we are going to put into raids and our next season and all of that and how do they work together in a way that um feels like yes we are furthering the story but also like we also recognize that there are people who really are into story who probably aren't going to do a lot of raiding aren't going to complete the raids and that sort of thing so how do we balance that particular thing to yeah we want to move the world forward but we also want it to be something that can be you know shared and recapped and and and you have other ways to find out that really critical information too like that's that's been an important part for us yeah and on the other side of that this is probably kind of a question for you but also for both of you how are you you're building this gameplay that needs to fit with the narrative design and i think it was probably a lot easier since you were working with leah and with the writers from the beginning but how did you fit the gameplay and the mechanics and everything that you wanted into that narrative ooh um and no spoiling so like it was actually wasn't really that difficult you know like we had pitched like i had worked on the last boss in the encounter and i had a really clear idea what i wanted to do for mechanics uh and we had talked a little bit about like who the character was and why she was there uh and we weren't going to reveal everything uh at the end of the release because some of it the story continues into the next release uh and you know i just i was like all right i want to do this really crazy fl like attacks with lots of fire because you're in a tree fort and i want to burn this whole thing down and they're like we really like fire around here we can work with that and actually it was really funny because i i named everything after like my friends so like they did i named all the characters in the last fight after like my guildies from uh that i did and uh like so i kept trying to sell them on all these character names i'm like yeah her name is sabatha the saboteur and like what is she saboteuring i'm like everything somehow i managed to convince them that these are the best names his character name was like nicole's oh my god doesn't make sense and we actually call them nachos and i'm like yeah they're never going to call them nachos to sell nachos as a character i try no i i it's funny that's like these makes sense and we had this whole backstory about why it was called knuckles and it gets kind of revealed a little bit as you like discover some of the narrative elements in the instance so see like super with the punching no i'm not gonna no spoilers no you guys told me what we couldn't spoil and i never tried not spoiling knuckles i gave some names yeah and some backstory on the name i kind of i kind of like this i did so jason took me through the raid yesterday just to kind of give me a heads up because you know my cheats haven't done it yet yeah with all the chidi dev hacks i didn't see knuckles and now i'm very very excited to find oh yeah that is i'm excited to find this character you can give him a highlight i'm sorry oh that's okay he looks like byron no he does the everyone that all of your character development is like names of people you know who look like people you know and you just mash those together and yes basically no that's what we all do really so you know there's a lot of little nods throughout our game like that oh yeah that's everywhere oh my gosh all right i'm gonna need to yeah i'm gonna need to find this guy there's like a screenshot of like the three characters that are part of the encounter no i've seen that i want to see him in the game though okay i'm excited about this and now i know who i'm looking for i like that he looks like byron is well that was the thing like people saw it and they're like why did you why'd you make an npc that looks like byron and i'm like it's not byron it's it's knuckles he's also got his butt he also has a glorious beard he has a beard and a mohawk there's not many people that could be i mean i saw and i was like hey that guy looks like byron so right you you totally did that even my inspiration when i was building the composite a little and i'm sure he was really sad about that i did make another bayern in the game at one point what yeah there is a guild puzzle in um plains of ashford in the human uh the langmar state i think it's called yeah and there's a curator that walks around i think it's a ghost and he's just like upset about how how messy everything is everything's all messy and he's like oh the curtains and he's like straightening the curtains byron but i did this back when he was like in qa and so everyone was like ragging on him for a little bit i felt pretty good about that i have never noticed this guy and i've done that puzzle a whole bunch of times yeah so next time in the room where all the paintings are when you pull the curtains we're not even talking about raids anymore no we're going to have a huge like fan base of people who just go there just to meet buyer in the don't think anyone's going to be buying the nickety yeah he doesn't he doesn't look like byron he looks he looks like is there someone who looks like you in game yeah yeah a little a bit there's a a pirate named gates and you you actually get into like a little swearing competition with her oh that's so appropriate i won that i won that i mean i lost that because i never cuss yeah maybe i don't think there's a liar in game i'm okay with that this is happening there you go we need to get some more more people's work in there yeah oh my gosh that's amazing all right so now you guys have some you guys have some real people that you can go find in the raid you can be you can be the mushroom king because he has a little crown huh all right okay so raids and narrative um you had explicit storytelling i mean just straight up here's here's the story here's what's going on in the raid but then we have other things and we'll go into this more because bobby stein is going to be joining us a little bit bobby who is really instrumental in implementing uh most the story and the grades with a lot of good details bobby's going to talk about details with us but there's an overarching just little hints of story that you can look around for absolutely and how much i mean how much time was spent in making all of that happen because here's here are the little pieces of storytelling that we want to put in there so make it happen from a design point of view how did that work um well i mean we wanted to focus on the encounters right and then get the story put in and one of the things that we do very well in guild wars is having the one-on-one stories um but when you have 10 players in an instance you kind of want to give them an opportunity to like run around and find things and sort of pick it up like a journal or something so we just kind of spent some time developing that content and making a little game of it and spawning it around the space that's one of the things i like you take down the boss and okay now we're done we never have to come back again except there's so much more to find in there i think one of the things that came up a lot is in the personal story it's your story and the voice is always your voice uh and so when we're looking at raids uh the one the biggest things came up is who's going to say all this dialogue like what character is going to speak and at one point it was like well what if it's always the commander or what if it's always this person really that doesn't really make sense you guys are kind of here together as like this elite group of a team type mercenaries or something it's not any one person's story it's your your team's story yeah and so that's where it's it's basically just the first person who interacts with these things and it could be any person whoever runs forward first their character notices something and then they say something that they noticed in the world and then all the rest of people in the squad can say oh or they can see oh that this person who ran forward noticed something yeah i was joking with jason yesterday that there's this is going to trigger like a giant stampede in every raid group like everybody's trying to be the first one to get there i saw it first i saw yeah and players will hit it and like they'll say the line first so if you really want to be the vocal one just go ahead you know don't mind the landmines or whatever might be put there you know just you just run created a legion of leroy jenkins in spirit pale there's like one guy in heavy armor just stampeding forward at every opportunity and getting blown up i want to be the spotlight well he's going to be the whatever he's going to wind up being the trap finder is exactly what's going to happen thanks man we'll res you later but i think also kind of related to this and you know i've said this before to folks we know where we want to take our story sort of long term and there are steps and this actually became a really nice opportunity to start seeding in something that we really want to play up a lot more in the future and so it really became a lovely opportunity to to do that in a new way and to find new ways to make that happen so that um through the process of raids and making it all i know i'm so trying hard not to tell people too much is that um though through these pieces and these encounters you really do start to get maybe some inkling of where we may be going next and that's pretty exciting i think uh to see it so it's it right now the story of raids absolutely takes a bit of a turn from from where we ended off and hot but i guarantee you it's all going to come back around together and sort of make some sense and that was a really cool thing working with this team that we got to say hey we'd love to start introducing this new thing that we want to be doing this does seem like a really great opportunity let's find ways to make that happen and and i do i think it was really successful and kind of like crystal was saying once we all kind of had a few of those conversations it actually became pretty easy to find ways to make that happen you know we were sort of going back on balance of is this too much story here there are people actually going to take any time to explore in this particular area for instance which is a very different thing than i hope doing do or not want to have that story and so it's also really thinking about with the raiders playstyle in mind and with the kind of speed and cadence that you get when people are playing through a raid where are the optimal places to kind of put stuff and what would be rewarding for people that maybe once they finished a certain encounter like maybe had an opportunity before if they ran off again could they do a little exploration and find some stuff oh that might be rewarded um but you know if if people also didn't want to it wasn't going to get in the way of just a great hardcore raving experience that was the other thing too is that it should be part of it kind of woven into it and and i do think i think you guys did just such a great job and bobby too bobby is in the back of the room bobby did a great job we'll let him come in pretty soon okay but that is that's one of the things that i really really love is that all of this story is there if you want it but if you are not a player who's into that kind of thing it's not gonna it's not going to actively harm your raid experience if you're if you're not getting it it struck a good balance so i have i have a narrative question before we take a little break okay bring bobby in how much i'm now i'm the one like okay how do i do this without screwing up and revealing too much i know people will go back to spirit veil much later and in hindsight be like oh i see now what i was i understand now what i was looking at how much do you expect peop do you expect people to piece everything together right now or to piece anything together that's a it's a kind of loaded question i do think that there are certain places there's a trap yeah no i think when we're look every time we design story we're always aware that so many of our fans know the story just as well sometimes even better than we do like people get super excited about certain areas so what we like to do is create story that encourages speculation and encourages where things can go and that's i think the hallmark of good game storytelling particularly in a vast rich world like the guild wars universe there's so many things in tyria and so many places that things could come from that ideally what's always really cool is if you can get people then having discussions it's like oh i think it might go this way no i think it could go this way and when there's really good reasons to think both things and i think yeah folks you're gonna start to really get a good sense of of kind of some of the stuff that's gonna become important pretty soon so yeah i think um it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that people will start to piece certain things together and at least be having strong inklings of where we're going and i think that that's exciting awesome yeah there's some good theories i've been reading some are wrong and that's good those are the best those are fun because oh that would that would have been cool if that's weird it's not but if we were doing that that would be kind of neat too it's very clever they're all very very clever ideas yeah all right leah thank you very much thanks for having me and thanks for making an awesome raid that helps to further our stories a little bit so yeah those were fun all right we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back with bobby style usually if you separate out your a and your b i might just take the a and move there's also going to be other lines coming up where it's like being treated in a gymnasium the idea is there's a part of the game where you go inside the main bad guy's mind okay so it's gonna feel like you're inside a gym it's like yeah but now i know i'm here which means i'm coming for you it's a lot of that idea okay okay okay so when i do the take a and b do you want me to give you like no when we get to that pocket the bigger pocket if if you just give me the a and wait and then give me the b if i don't say anything okay uh most of the time i'm gonna jump in be like keeper you know so i'll just say once we get the right and i pulled back on the mic a little bit because i know we're going to be doing a lot of louder stuff so you don't have to like turn away okay great great great how many pages do you average a day when you do this i'm sorry how many pages do you average a day i have no idea i don't know how many pages do i average a day is it more like lines right because the 5 pages we got to get that up cool out of 11 000 or something i just know that they don't look angry when i'm done so and welcome back leah your hair's all gone and you're a dude yeah i tried to fight sabbath and she burned it off hello bobby i will let you do the rest of the introduction so i'm bobby stein i'm a hideous beast next to this guy i'm a narrative lead at arenanet and i've been working with these fine folks and the rest of the raids team for i don't know however many months but too long almost yes i would have been so happy if you just stopped i'm bobby stein and i'm a hideous beast we can just cut that right yeah yeah we could have given you that title if you'd let us know bobby stein hideous beast all right so we were talking about just the general lore design and how all of that fits into raids and now we're going to get into like the fun detail stuff who did you name somebody after oh man i don't know you know some people get really obsessed with naming stuff and i i just figure this is an opportunity for the people on the team to really have fun throw their ideas around i mean a lot of what i think good narrative design has a solid foundation but is also flexible enough to work within the many ideas that people bring to the table so i think oh man i probably renamed a couple things and upset a few people but um i like that then he smiles it's like peter freeze talking about killing something yeah destroyer fun is a job title around here so it kind of is yeah no i i don't even remember if i named anything i mean i certainly like everybody else in the team through little references and in jokes and things about you know folks and whatnot but yeah i i don't know what i will say is if you are the kind of person to go and explore the raid after you've beaten certain things and you poke around you might actually see some cool stuff nice so talking about naming things uh jason was telling us a cool story while we were and it's legitimately a cool story it's not like oh yeah so so first of all so once upon a time when we were making the we're actually doing like the designs and everything before bobby came on and we started like you know cleaning it up he used to be a a plant monster we actually call him internally bramble boss um so it got his name because i was like putzing around on the internet looking up plant names i don't know and just like mushed them together and so we got gorsuval uh the multifarious or of course of all the mouth full of marbles because nobody could say it for a while because nobody could say it really yeah the mouth mouth full of marbles i thought he liked that was having a seizure or something when he first said the name i'm like what did you say quotations first of all i'm like bobby we'll do a writing pass bobby will fix it bobby was kidding sounds perfect it really but it really does i mean sometimes you're just messing around you're putting around on the internet and hit up on something that works really well because it sounds it's got that scary monster sound to it and it works out really well so well done yeah thank you colin stole all the thunder anyways months ago when he showed the video and he didn't know what to call he was like the tongue box it worked out very very nicely i like it so good job make make more accidental things happen because i try it's pretty much my life so so he was a plant boss and we decided to not do that anymore yeah so it i mean once we started piling the narrative together it didn't really make a lot of sense for him to be this like thicket beast whatever he was why did we also want to like up the ante on him so he's a lot more interesting now but these it's all his hands he's very handsy uh and he's he's a he's a scary ghost guy that's sort of like merged together so he's actually like thousands of spirits uh like all speaking and thinking is one yeah that was actually really uh a challenge i think that we faced when we were like how do we convey this without stopping and having somebody say you know what that guy is so look at all those hands look at all yeah so it was great so there were a lot of meetings were like how the hell are we gonna let people know what this is without saying it so yeah once you enter the the woods and there's all the spoilers by the way for people who haven't gotten that far but this is the internet so deal with it so you go in and a lot of the the things that happen where these spirits are popping up the things that they say like normally when when you fight a character in guild wars 2 they say a bunch of stuff right and a lot of it is you know contextual to what they do so that it acts as a tell but what we wanted to do with the spirits in here is we don't want them to say the same kind of things that spirits elsewhere in the game say because they have a different tie to the story in this area so we have all new stuff that they say and it all tracks back to where they come from and what they are and then if you explore around you'll find things your character will say things about what they are we even show the spirits kind of coming together in a couple of spots to where it's like this is a theme that we're running with so that by the time you get to this boss you have a better understanding of what it is and yeah his uh voice is actually a combination of two people talking so it's actually meant to convey the idea that there's many of these spirits that are trapped inside this thing but they're acting as one so yeah we ran with the whole multifarious idea and kind of like all right how do we really sell this and it's not apparent and i know some people are like i don't know what this guy is i just showed up and i fought him but i don't know what it is it actually does tie into something that we're gonna if you poke around you'll get a little more of an idea about it but in the future there will be more information about it so there there is a point and actually right before you get to course of all when you clear the graveyard area right after that a whole bunch of things become interactive so what i would say to anybody is if you're playing the raids and you're lucky enough and skilled enough to beat an encounter some stuff may actually like appear that you can interact with we wanted to not make it interactive during the fight so that you weren't clicking on i mean i don't know from playing the game you're running next to an npc and you accidentally click on them and they're like hey what's going on you're like get out of my way you know we didn't want you to click on never asked for this something that got in your way so we turned a lot of that off but after you beat it if you want to go find it and in fact if you go in your achievement panel if you look at the achievements we even give you some hints as to what you might find or where it might be but we tried to be a little more vague so that was kind of the really cool thing too when we were talking about like game design and narrative design coming together it's like sometimes it's what you it's how you present the the text or the dialogue along with the gameplay that can if you just tell somebody then it just becomes a checklist of things to do if you're a little bit more uh mysterious about it it can actually make it more of a game to actually uncover these secrets so that's what we tried to do in the raids can i by the way say thank you for the hints really really thank you i appreciate that so much the funny thing about the hints too is some so there's the crumpled pieces of paper from a journal which originally you know little backstory that it was originally knuckles journal and we had all this funny stuff about it sorry the the first draft of all of it too was pretty funny because we wanted to say well how did he get the name knuckles so it was all the stuff about him getting in a fight and there was this rivalry between him and some of the other bandits and you know it didn't quite fit tonally so we had to change some of it but um there's the journal pages that are spread out i think there's like 13 of them and charlie who's the content designer who placed a lot of these things in the environment and hooked it up he's just like yeah i stubbed in some hints and this one is it was just like by the tree by the water and that kind of thing and the best one was in the tree crotch crotch and i said charlie i really don't want to change this but i think i have to tell you so yeah and uh there's there's your hint of the day there is a piece of paper in it this is why all of our text has to go through a writer first and what's even worse is all the things that i don't catch and then i'm on to you guys then there are the things that i know you had a hand in because i came and asked you about them and we're so pleased we don't talk about that things don't make me really really happy so something that's not about a tree crotch we were talking about players and the player voices and the player behavior as we went and different people get to talk one of the things that we've done with heart of thorns that's really great is that you have a slightly different experience if you go through with a different race and that carried over into the raid a little bit too yeah totally i mean the hot team i think you know my involvement with hot was pretty minimal the the team that worked on it was awesome and they did a lot of things about like if you were playing a different uh like race or gender we could take that into account so obviously if you're sylvari the experience is a bit different right so we wanted to kind of continue that spirit but definitely adapt it more to the raids because again like like you folks were saying before the raid is it's not really about like the pack commander stories it's about the the story of the party you know like what are we doing as a group so a couple things i mean obviously we wanted to give all the players and the party the opportunity to speak when we could you know at different times or whatever like you know we run up and touch this thing and maybe you'll be the lucky one to say the line or whatever but um come and touch this thing um oh god i'm calling stankus that was assault wow um crystal's just like wow that is collated quickly sorry um but the other thing was just that uh we expect people to fail a lot in raids and and i know from you know we we all play a lot of games and every time you hear the same line over and over and over again you're like oh god shut up right so the good thing is like we now have a throttling system so that we can not have things happen as much and especially if you're replaying a lot of the same content you shouldn't hear some of the lines as much as you maybe used to but then also the fact that we where possible we tried to vary it up so that at least by player race the lines even if they were saying the same thing just had a different spin on them so that was something we tinkered with so there should be a bit of variety and it was just like you know if you play a game like gta and you fail a mission and you retry it sometimes your character might say something different during it so we kind of went with that approach that hey if you're going through you might actually hear the same scene but with some lines swapped out so we wanted to make it feel a little bit more like you discover something new every time because we want you to play it a lot yeah and as far as discovery this was i'm just going off of some things that you guys have told me over the past couple days because i haven't completed this and it's neat learning all of this you didn't want people just to like hold down the alt key and run like all right find all the things because they're lit up now yeah and this is something really that became a design discussion because i know like elsewhere in the game we have kind of rules about when you create something and put it in the world what are the things you needed you know we made our own rules exactly in the nicest of ways yeah we were just like whoop threw it out um so yeah i mean rates are supposed to be challenging right so why would you want somebody to be able to push a button and then see everything that they need to discover so we're like the hell with that we're turning it off we're going to give you really vague kind of cool contextual or lawful hints but we're not going to give it away like really you have to work for it and and i guess the downside is for the people who aren't going to work for it they might not actually see it but i would say hey play the raids because they're fun as hell i suck at them but i'm going to get in there and try and do it party up later yeah totally we're not going to last very long no um it'll be fun but there's really cool stuff in there to explore and as i think you know leah and the rest of you folks mentioned before it's like it's not a story heavy experience like you would have in like the personal story or in the hot story but there definitely is a story that ties into everything that if you take the time to actually go through it you know we think that you'll get something really cool out of it and if you don't care about it it didn't slow you down because we didn't stop and make you click through a million things right but if you're interested in the story there's a lot and that's the thing raids are here i mean you're not going to just do this for a while okay now we don't have this rating where we're going to pull the whole thing out of the game they're here for a long time so you can go back right now i think everybody's kind of taking their time i heard a player say yesterday that she's really loving she's trying it again and again and again with her group and they're getting a little farther every time and that feels so good just making that progress and knowing that you're getting better as a player but then after you've finally conquered it and even if you get to some point down the line where you just don't want to do the raid part again there's a ton of exploration and story to go around and find in there and it was it was a good thing to put in there to give even more even more play time to put in there and even way way way after everybody has beaten this thing because i think it's going to be a while you guys did your jobs really well too well well i'm hearing i've heard a couple people you know oh gosh this is so hard meant to be yes content um i mean that was always my favorite thing of raiding those was sort of like discovering the puzzle with the boss and working with my team to get better at it and then finally overcoming that challenge and just as a as a unit uh really just feeling that excitement and that joy of beating th the just the ass out of this thing that is amazing yeah so i'm happy that we were able to successfully recreate that for guild wars yeah so speaking of watching players progress over the week how has this week been for you guys just kind of kind of low key for at least like this is like bracing or something like there's something bad happening somewhere yeah why is it so calm i've gone through a number of releases before and yeah you know there's been a couple of like oh my god like i remember some pretty bad bugs that we discovered on it was like the jungle worm where he you the event failed when he was like between like 0.9 and 0.1 percent he just wouldn't go away he would just stay there forever and he was spawning husks and it took a while to figure that out like there was some like really weird stuff like that but for like this release i've just been kind of coming into work and reading the forums and reading reddit and there hasn't been like there hasn't been a ton of stuff like well you're doing other work as far as well yeah following up with the community following up with the community where we're going with that i just realized that could be taken badly no i mean the biggest thing was uh reading the feedback and seeing what players were saying about it and players who have previously raided and other games uh they're they're they're pretty happy and there's other sides of the coin as well uh and i think my favorite post i saw came from someone a camera was on our forums or reddit and this guy had said okay i don't really have a ton of people i play this game with uh and you know everyone said this stuff wasn't puggable so i went and found like nine other people who really wanted to kill this boss and we got we got on someone's teamspeak server and we all coordinated and we took him down after like you know hours of trying and by the end of the night they had formed a guild and they had all met new friends and i'm like like that is exactly what reading is like that's what got me into raiding like 12 years ago just i want to take down these bosses and you can't do it solo so you go find a group of people that want to do i remember seeing someone was posting on like my realm forums they're like all right we're going to do this we're going to raid and i was like sign me up i want to be part of this uh and that just got me into it and then like you know i met new friends and i mean i met byron raiding 10 years ago like i have no buyer i've known byron before ever because we met raiding another video game and those are the kind of moments that we really hope guilt we can bring to guild wars 2 and that players can take from raiding in our game yeah well you're doing it i mean you're seeing it this week and that's extremely cool did you all watch the video that colin sent around a couple days ago of the of the guild that was taking down one of the bosses oh is that the one where he like enraged and like just like yeah his like auto attack like killed the boss and then he died i think he vengeance yeah he was he vengeance was like a warrior vengeance that's amazing it was the abs i mean you could not plan a better clutch safe but the absolute the screaming and cheering on their on their teamspeak or mumble or whatever they were on was absolutely so much i wanted to just i wanted to cheer along with them while i was watching and it's those moments that are making this so much fun this week it is it's been a lot of fun to see so here's my question as we wrap up for you guys my guild we're like super casual but we've been excited about this okay we're going to do this we're going to get together a reading group and i know i am not in the only casual player guild in the entire game what pieces of advice what advice do you guys have for casual guilds who want to get into this ooh oh yeah communication is key like you have to be able to communicate voice is super helpful with that um but other than like patience uh get a strategy together um i mean we've accepted we're gonna go in and get murdered immediately i mean we've accepted he's right but i mean it's fun you just kind of have to have the patience and take it with a grain of salt and work together and persevere yeah a little bit will be challenging yourself as a player you know on a skill level like maybe maybe you just have a bad build that's true but that's what there's tons of guides out there for that and you know if you're someone if you pvp a bunch the build you use there probably isn't going to work in rates so use a different build yeah i mean again i'm probably as casual as they come but i'm very interested in playing this content so i think i really need to get more active with a guild and kind of start doing the things that i need to to prepare to it and yeah maybe i'll get in there and get squashed or i know i will but there will be a learning curve but i mean that you get better at it and the other thing too is like you're there with a party of people so you know you get to learn some things and rely on each other and the other thing i would just say too is um you know it i realized that that you know i think you had said the other day the venn diagram of uh pure raiders and people who are purely interested in story there's probably not a lot of overlap there's a little sliver but for the people who are there i know like wooden potatoes for example i was watching his video the other day it was really great and you know he he was picking up on some of the cool things that we had hidden in there and um if you're in that audience where you're not only there for the challenge but you're also there to kind of experience the the lore of the world you know take the time after you're done beating something or if you know any guilds or players that have already beaten it if you go in with them as the the raid leader the whole thing will be cleared for you and you can go in and explore without getting your face melted off so i mean people will have the opportunity to go in it's just you need to you know party up with the right people and maybe go and explore around so it might be a cool you know you get to see the the devastation that the the raid party went and did too bad we can't leave the bodies around yeah oh my gosh the dream all right well thank you guys very much and thank you to leah for coming on and talking to us about raids thanks man you can't see me we do not have a show next week because here in america we're celebrating thanksgiving and i have no intention of coming to work on black friday and i don't think i could get no are you going to be here girl cheese let's talk afterwards let's talk afterwards maybe you can do the show closed yeah close next friday so we will not be here we will be back with another guild chat the week after that which is december 4th and right now we are going to debut our new pvp league show on point with gibran urex and we will see you guys in two weeks