Talk:Blood Citadel

Deletion

Disagree with deletion. By lore, Blood Citadel, as mentioned in The Legions of the Charr, is "East, across the Blazeridge Mountains,". Obviously, the Blood Keep is not east of the Blazeridge Mountains, and we do not know whether they're the same location, or different. If this has not been retconned, then the Blood Legion territories extend further than just the Blood Legion Homelands marked on the world map, and go further east; it could be that the Blood Keep and Blood Citadel are two separate locations, both functioning as fortress cities for Bangar to reside in. I recommend getting clarification from a dev before proceeding. Konig (talk) 04:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I think it's obvious that the lore we have got in this release has superseded The Legions of the Charr. The Blood Keep (in the Blood Legion Homelands, as it is) appears to be the capital of the Blood Legion, and no mention is ever made of a "Blood Citadel" in this release. We could either awkwardly try to synthesise the two different sources every time we mention the Blood Legion, Blood Keep, or Bangar Ruinbringer (which, if one of them is just incorrect as is likely, would not be the right thing to do), or we could simply delete this page and note the discrepancy with a {{lore discrepancy}} tag on the Blood Keep page until it gets addressed by a dev sometime between now and the heat death of the universe.

In fact, rereading The Legions of the Charr, no mention is ever made of a "Blood Citadel" (that name comes from Rox: Avenger of the Dispossessed). It says, "East, across the Blazeridge Mountains, Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer controls the lands of the Blood Legion". At the time The Legions of the Charr was written (2011), what we now call the Blood Legion Homelands were called the "Charr Homelands", as in GW1. So at the time, it seems that the plan was for the Blood Legion Homelands to be east of Ascalon. By the second beta weekend, the Charr Homelands had been renamed the Blood Legion Homelands and the "lands of the Blood Legion" were manifestly no longer "East, across the Blazeridge Mountains". –Santax (talk · contribs) 08:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

My point is that we cannot be certain that "Blood Citadel" and "Blood Keep" are intended to be the same location. Nor can we be certain that the Blood Legion do not control the lands east of the Blazeridge. True, this content hasn't been seen to make mention of a Blood Citadel or Blood lands to the east - but it doesn't mention Ash territories either, nor Flame Citadel, nor does it call Blood Keep a capital. We should look into it a bit more before slapping deletion tags on things. Konig (talk) 09:45, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

To me, this article looks like yet another one-sentence waste of time, so I'd be in favour of converting it to a redirect. That said, Konig makes a good point here, and it might be misleading if we redirected it to Blood Keep. How about a redirect to Blood Legion? —Idris 10:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Konig: lore bods can come up with any level of convoluted explanation for an apparent discrepancy, but it doesn't make it right to document that theory as a fact on a publicly-facing wiki (that is used by the devs to check the consistency of their own lore!). The fact that we cannot be certain that the Blood Legion do not control the lands east of the Blazeridge, is not a reason to pretend to readers that we know for a fact that the Blood Legion control the lands east of the Blazeridge. We have a pre-release blog post saying they were to the east (and back then the Blood Legion Homelands were called "Charr Homelands" in-game - this was later updated) and as far as I can tell, not much else. We may as well document that the Ash Legion rule over the Isles of Janthir. I'm not saying that we shouldn't document that a blog post has said that the Blood Legion Homelands were in a different place pre-release, but I also think it's right that we acknowledge that it appears to have later been contradicted.

Idris: I feel like a wider discussion needs to be had on these shorter articles, and a consensus reached. I know there's one ongoing at [[Talk:Battle of Ice Crest]]; perhaps it'd be worth adding it to [[GW2W:RFC]] to bring more attention to it? My position is that, given that this piece of lore seems to have been forgotten even by ArenaNet long ago, that we need to be making these articles more discoverable rather than wiping them from the wiki (although the fact that this piece of lore appears to have been retconned out is probably more to do with a lack of references than a lack of discoverability). –Santax (talk · contribs) 21:54, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

"a reason to pretend to readers that we know for a fact that the Blood Legion control the lands east of the Blazeridge" That's not what I'm trying to suggest. Foremost, I'm stating that that we have nothing to proclaim that "Blood Citadel = Blood Keep". Unlike "east of the Blazeridge", the name Blood Citadel comes from the game, which ArenaNet has stated is the ultimate dichotomy for whether something is canon or not - if it's in the game, it's 100% canon; if it isn't, then it's "canon until proven otherwise". As to the eastern territory, Idris' rewording on Blood Legion Homelands#Trivia suffices there. Konig (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

To the topic of veracity: Requiem: Rytlock makes mention of the Blood Citadel, and states Bangar has a throne there. I don't think Bangar's office in Blood Keep was very throne-like. Further suggesting to me that they're separate locations, and this is 2019 lore at that, not pre-release "before Charr Homelands got renamed" lore, too. Konig (talk) 02:17, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Friendly reminder that Smodur's office looks pretty much the same as Bangar's and his chair is considered a throne for the purposes of Chairs of the World. —Idris 02:32, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Fair point there. I guess charr do not treat thrones like other races. Konig (talk) 02:48, 20 September 2019 (UTC)