Talk:Scepter of Orr

Untitled

I disagree with the deletion notice, the information is relevant because it discusses the staff and its applications, which in turn is relevant to GW2 because the sequence in the cinematic at the end of EotN is obvious foreshadowing for events involving Livia and the Scepter of Orr in GW2. --Santax (talk · contribs) 00:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Its involvement in Guild Wars 2 is speculation (I don't think there's any info about it regarding Guild Wars 2 yet), but even putting that aside the article currently is only Guild Wars information. I don't see why the Guild Wars Wiki article can't suffice (in fact, it'll probably be better since it has other relevant links and whatnot within the wiki).

Since it's all background information, and that "background" is essentially Guild Wars, I don't think it's relevant or necessary here yet. The last time we heard of the Scepter was in Eye of the North, i.e. the original series; when we get any information specific to Guild Wars 2, then we can create an article. -- Pling \ talk 01:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Nothing does show any definite inclusion of the Scepter of Orr in GW2. Though it may have a role in the books if not GW2. Hmmm, curious, does lore from the books go into the GW wiki, or the GW2 wiki? It should go onto at least one of them. -- Konig/talk 01:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Once we've read the books, we can make that decision :) -- Pling \ talk 01:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(EC)::Here you go :P Livia and the Scepter of Orr is officially "a Guild Wars 2 question". The last two paragraphs of the article are very relevant to the GW2 backstory, and the rest of the article is context. Admittedly the context is large in comparison to the GW2 bits, but it is necessary, and is actually quite restrained. I'm sure that it could be even more in-depth on GWW, it's just that nobody's bothered making a proper attempt of it yet. I'm sure that as more information becomes available on the Scepter, some of the context bits can be filtered out and shuffled into other articles, and the relative size of the bits relevant to GW2 will grow as well. --Santax (talk · contribs) 01:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not Livia takes the Scepter, and where it is, is a GW2 lore question because it all takes place after Eye of the North. But whether it has an effect on GW2 or the books is unknown. Thus, for the GW2 wiki, it may or may not be relelvent. -- Konig/talk 02:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You honestly doubt that the Scepter will have some effect on GW2? ANet wouldn't have put that sequence in the cinematic for no reason, it's pretty obviously foreshadowing. --Santax (talk · contribs) 10:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Though it is clear now that Anet loves teasing people, I never said it wouldn't have an effect for future lore, I said it doesn't necessarily need to affect GW2 - could affect the books. I realize my wording was a tad confusion (affect GW2 or the book - could be seen as "neither...nor" or "either...or" i.e., neither or one but unsure which - I meant the later). -- Konig/talk 21:41, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Arah?

excuse me but Arah was undersea during GW she got it from some area around Tarnished Coast or Magumma jungle Zachariah Zuan. 14:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Shards of Orr was undersea in GW, and yet we went there. And her endgame dialogue:

"You survived. I'm pleased. When I return to Kryta, I shall say that heroes still exist in the world. But first, there is another place I must go... a little city called Arah..."

--Santax (talk · contribs) 14:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

still I'm pretty sure it was somwhere in Magumma or Tarnished Coast...oh well, how'd she get to Arah? corsair ships? Zachariah Zuan. 15:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we can tell where it is, we see foilage, that's it. Not enough to tell anything aside from "not Shiverpeaks, nor Crystal Desert, nor Ascalon". Could be in Kryta, the forest area north of Kryta, Orr (not necessarily Arah), the Maguuma, etc. -- Konig/talk 02:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

It looked like some sort of cave where Livia found the scepter of Orr so I believe that Livia got to Arah through the shards of Orr because 1. the dungeon is called shards of Orr 2. shards of orr was underground and Arah was under water and probably connected to somewhere through hidden tunnels maybe used as escape routes. - Giant Nuker 13:55, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Shards of Orr is not connected to Orr. It was a settlement (if anything) of Orr that was given to the fleeing Corsairs for refuge. You have the whole Sea of Sorrows and/or Strait of Malchor to connect the two, improbable, to be honest. Also, cave!=Orr, there are caves all over the world. It's been a while, but I believe there is plenty of foilage around Livia. Shards of Orr is a fiery dungeon, not a plant dungeon. It would be a more logical guess to say she got it from Bogroots than Shards of Orr. Also, your logic makes no sense, as "Arah was under water" that means it would be impossible to go there. We see Livia is above land. -- Konig/talk 20:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Ever heard of a submerged cave? Just because something is underwater doesn't mean there's no air. 198.174.37.44 08:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have, but good luck getting to one of those in Arah, which exploded. Chances are there aren't many. Oh, fun fact: Orr consists of more than just Arah. Konig/talk 10:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Unholy Corruption

I'm guessing Livia may have been granted imortality by the Scepter and become a sort of Female Lich Zachariah Zuan. 14:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

And your support for this? It has been thought of before time and time again, and I will bring up, once more, the Scepter of Orr does not corrupt Khilbron was a lich before he gained the Scepter of Orr. Guys, stop wishing for some "sexy undead lich". It's not only incredibly unlikely, it's also disturbing. -- Konig/talk 02:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

um...I wasn't wishing for an undead sexy lich...it'd be nice but wasn't really going at it that way, but power still corrupts, and what does the scepter have alot of hmmmmm power? Zachariah Zuan. 08:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

You may not of said "sexy lich" but hundreds of others did, and honestly, it's just weird. And yes, power does corrupt, but it doesn't turn one into a lich let alone undead. We don't know the Scepter of Orr's power aside from affecting energy one has. Controlling undead was a farce by the lich, who controlled undead already, and controlling Titans is most likely not something it does as Abaddon could have just said "follow the guy with the stick". -- Konig/talk 20:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't implying that the Scepter would make her undead, immortal possibly Zachariah Zuan. 20:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether you realize or not, you were. Liches are undead by nature. Also, immortality seems to not exist in GW, the closest being a lich (Khilbron was only killed via the Soul Batteries ripping his soul out - Joko is the same as Khilbron). And again, the Scepter of Orr is not the cause of any physical changes by our knowledge. -- Konig/talk 21:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall saying she'd become a Lich or undead, maybe she could be one of the first immortals in GW, though i'm pretty sure there havce been others...but I can't be sure Zachariah Zuan. 09:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

"I'm guessing Livia may have been granted imortality by the Scepter and become a sort of Female Lich" your first post in the topic. The only "immortal" is Joko - the gods can be killed, spirits are not living thus not immortal, even joko isn't immortal since he's an undead. The closest things to immortals (i.e., very very very old) are the Elder Dragons, Glint, and Kuunavang. But I doubt any of those are immortal either. -- Konig/talk 22:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

still theres a first time for everything Zachariah Zuan. 11:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

If there was a weapon or item of some sort which gave immortality, it would have been the Staff of the Mists which has control over at least a being's health. The Scepter of Orr controls at least energy. -- Konig/talk 23:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

your've explained some very good points and made great statments, I think your right and i'm glad we had this chat ...still somthing tells me that Livia might be mentioned at least ^^ Zachariah Zuan. 18:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

My money is on her being in a book (assuming one will actually be in-between the two games and not just a year before GW2 with a tricking title). Or she'll find some lover and we'll have another descendant (I'm sure we'll have Gwen/Thackery, Mhenlo/Cynn, Aiden/Zho, and Thom/Farrah).

Thackery? that guy who randomly enters HoM and hits on Gwen? and Farrah? I'll look her up, and yeah a book and lover sounds right..i'm surprised she doesn't have her own page yet tho Zachariah Zuan. 22:11, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

She doesn't have a page yet because we haven't been given any information about her.

Question

This whole Scepter business is confusing. Why would A-net bother to bring it up were it irrelevant, and yet, I struggle to see how it fits into the story. Any theories? The only one I can imagine fitting the scenario even loosely is if Livia's taking of the scepter incurred the awakening of Zhaitan, perhaps the Orrian knew of Zhaitan's power and used the scepter to supress him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CelleyBear (talk • contribs).

Anet has said that there will be various side-stories in the main storyline that do not deal with Zhaitan particularly, but issues of the various races - also, these side stories are based on your race (of course) and affiliation. So it is possible that the Scepter of Orr is a part of one of these side stories that isn't linked to Zhaitan. Also, sign your comments by using the four tildes (~~~~). -- Konig/talk 08:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Adding on to Konig's note, The Scepter of Orr's power is used to control the titans as we know from Prophecies. - Giant Nuker 12:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Not quite. We don't know the exact powers, as with the undead Khilbron already had control of them, and with the Titans, Abaddon could of ordered them to "follow the guy with the stick" without him knowing. The Staff of the Mists is said to affect the physical realm, and with the Scepter of Orr affecting energy, many people believe it to simply affect the "spiritual" realm - or spirits themselves (which would explain how Khilbron controlled the spirits of the fallen White Mantle in the end cinematic of Thunderhead Keep). This could be expanded to the Titans, however, in that they are made from tortured spirits (in essence, spirits covered by the elements to make various shapes). -- Konig/talk 16:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Wait so... it's possible that unless you are human, the scepter has no relevance whatsoever? I guess that makes sense, seeing as Livia saught to bring peace to her home-land, maybe it's a sacred artifact to krytans because of what it symbolizes.(and thanks, Konig. I kinda forgot signature.. >.>) Celle

It could be that the Scepter plays no role in the game itself, but instead in a novel and/or simply the lore in between the games (just because it was shown in Ogden's Benediction doesn't mean that it cannot be just like the scene of Pyre leading the rebellion, which thus far is only mentioned in the Ecology of the Charr). -- Konig/talk 03:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, Pyre leading the rebellion has to do with how the race got to the point where it is today, after all, he was the one who proclaimed the Charr's secularity. Perhaps the Scepter of Orr is mentioned for the same reason, as it appears to have relevance to Krytan/Human heritage. Celle

I find it difficult to imagine that an item with such world-altering potential would be left out and about by Glint to be found by Livia and it not have some large effect. While we don't know if she'll be a good little girl or the next Verata, I feel it will play a bigger part in this than just some side-quest chain. Mat Cauthorn, The Botanist 16:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It would be funny if Zhaitan was actually being controlled by Livia using the Sceptre of Orr on him. But even by fantasy standards that's a bit far fetched. Although, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" could be used here and Glint could have had different motives for the killing of Khilbron maybe, he was a unusual aspect that could hinder the return of her/it's kind. Just thinking out loud here... ----Whisperwind/Say hello 01:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Speculation?

Do you honestly think that ANet would give Livia a load of dialogue about her going to find the Scepter of Orr in Arah, state in her bio that she seeks "a weapon of great power", include a cutscene in the epilogue showing her about to grab the Scepter, and then not take it any further? If anything, the new revision is more speculative. --Santax (talk · contribs) 20:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

How do we know the Sceptre was taken back to Arah by Glint? I thought the Sceptre was just magic'd away by her at the end of Prophecies, and at the end of Eye of the North we just see Livia hesitating over it - it doesn't specifically mention Arah, as far as I know. Anyway, wasn't Arah destroyed..? -- pling 22:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

It was sent to the bottom of the ocean, although that wouldn't necessarily make it inaccessible - the Shards of Orr were also at the bottom of the ocean. Livia's exact dialogue in the GW:EN epilogue is:

"You survived. I'm pleased. When I return to Kryta, I shall say that heroes still exist in the world. But first, there is another place I must go... a little city called Arah..."

Coming to think of it, we don't actually know whether Glint sent it to Arah - any number of things could have happened between Glint magicking it away and the Scepter ending up in Arah. On top of that, the current revision is speculative by saying Glint had "hidden" the Scepter there, implying we know something about her motivation, which we don't. We do know that both Glint and Orr have some connection to the dragons, and it's possible that Livia's discovery of the Scepter of Orr has something to do with their awakening. But now we are wandering into the realms of speculation. As an aside, we know it's the Scepter of Orr because of the background dialogue in this cinematic. But that's not the disuputed matter here. --Santax (talk · contribs) 22:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I completely forgot about that quote... I did check gw1:Epilogue before commenting here but I didn't find any of Livia's dialogue :/. -- pling 23:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The speculation is that Livia took it and, more importantly, that the Scepter of Orr was taken to Arah. Livia could of gone to Arah then somewhere else, and even then she was never shown to take it. Although it is most likely she did take it, it isn't proven, thus speculation. Also, the Shards of Orr is not at the bottom of the ocean, it is within the Tarnished Coast and if you look at the map, the stair icons lead upwards (where as most dungeons lead downwards). The current version is less speculative on the hidden part due to it having been placed somewhere "hidden" from the knowledge of others. It might not be like a scavenger hunt hidden, but just simply unknown to others (thus still hidden). And I doubt that Livia's finding of the Scepter of Orr is connected with the elder dragons - the first, Primordus, occurred 50 years after EN, Livia is most definably not 50 years older, and it can't be connected to Zhaitan, who woke up 150 years after EN.
In short, there's nothing known about what happens or occurrs around the Scepter of Orr and Livia after EN except that Livia found the Scepter of Orr - we don't know the location, we don't know if she took it, and we don't know what she did with it if she did take it. Thus, it is all speculation. -- Konig/talk 05:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Konig, check the GWW they have articles about the scepter of orr and livia, and they have a link to an interview saying that livia controlled the scepter for a while(so she must have grabbed it).The Holy Dragons 05:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Next time, look at the bloody dates. I posted that before the interview came out. I'm the one who added that bit to the GWW article. Ugh. -- Konig/talk 18:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

sorry ¬_¬ ... The Holy Dragons 18:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

20/10 edit

• Kryta, Ascalon and Orr were not always separate, see timeline, King Doric, and a host of other sources. In 100 BE, the settlements of the northern continent became collectively known as Ascalon.
• The Scepters are implied to have been created and given by the gods, and around the time of the Exodus - and this was written in Nightfall, before any retcons about norn and jotun being the gods' favoured races - so human nations.
• The Scepter of Orr was not kept within Orr, but in the ruler's tombs (i.e. Majesty's Rest, see dialogue from The Hallowed Point). We know the Scepter of Orr was recovered from Majesty's Rest (which at the time of the Exodus was a part of Ascalon - Kryta did not become a kingdom until 358 AE and Orr until 2 AE), and we know the Staff of the Mists was buried beneath an altar in the Desolation, which at the time of the Exodus was part of the Primeval Dynasty.

There's also a bunch of other problems I have with your revision - the Scepter controlling the dead, for example, is more than just a claim on the part of the Vizier, but rumoured to be the case by Krytan citizens (and yes, I realise he had control over the undead before gaining possession of the Scepter), which once again you'd have known if you'd just asked before marking my edit as "speculation" (and once again, taking such a hostile tone in the edit summary is hardly likely to endear yourself to me). --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:55, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Point by point.

• Timeline doesn't say they're the same - it merely states that King Doric ruled all three kingdoms at some point - plural. From timeline: "High-plains human settlements become known as Ascalon." High plains, not what you'd define Kryta or Orr as. See Sea of Sorrows (book). Page 92 "What the human's not telling you, Centurion, is that the nations of Orr and Kryta weere at war when Lion's Arch was built." Page 5 "Lion's Arch had stood since the days when humans first colonized the nation of Kryta, like a foundation stone of the kingdom, and of civilization itself." See an interview between GuildMag and Anet "The son of Orr, the prince of Orr, who left Orr to settle that part of the mainland." Kryta was founded - independently from Orr - by Mazdak the Accursed, a son of King Doric - and for some unknown reason still did so while at war with Orr.
• They're not implied to be created and given by the gods. Go re-read the quest dialogues. What's said is "The scepter and its twin, the Scepter of Orr, were created long ago, when this desert was still an ocean." "Long ago, the Staff of the Mists and the Scepter of Orr were given to the great nations of the world as protection." We have no indication of where, when, or by whom the staves were created - just "before the Exodus". That's all. There's not a single implication that the gods made them. And for the record, Thrulnn the Lost isn't a retcon because he is wrong on some points. You need to understand the concept of subjective truths. We're not dealing with Blizzard here.
• Yes, it was. "The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr. Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm." gw1:Mantle Knight Karriya nothing suggests he was wrong. Maybe it was kept in an Orrian tomb? Who knows. Point is: it was in Orr until 1071. For how long is unknown. Between 1071 AE and 1072 AE, it was moved to Majesty's Rest.
  • Kryta was a kingdom independently well before it's apparent second establishment by Elona in 300 AE - see above points and Mazdak the Accursed/Dead in Winter dialogue. We do not know what Orr became independent from but humans were on Tyria before Ascalon was established, and Orrian History Scrolls#A Land of Kings tells that Orr was established first and then King Doric sent people into other lands (Ascalon and - via Mazdak - Kryta). (Minor correction: Primeval Dynasty reign didn't stretch into the desert(s) until 29 AE).

On the undead bit - you'd have to provide a source for that because I searched and found nothing. And there was no hostility in my summary, just truthfulness. There was a lot wrong (particularly the "one nation named Ascalon" - all lore has always said Doric ruled over the three nations - and the incorrectness from gw1:The Hallowed Point) that it was making my head hurt. Konig 23:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Feedback 2018/04/05

Suggest that the image here be moved from the Guild Wars 2 Wiki to the Guild Wars Wiki as it is not there, and not Gw2 content. --— Cronos 05:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

MrModius's edits

Are they vandalism? The link at "acquired by Livia from bandits", for example, goes to the GW1 wiki page about GW1 cinematic "Ogden's Benediction", which mentions neither of Scepter, Livia, or bandits. 176.67.30.89 13:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC))

It is a cinematic and one of the scenes is of Livia with the Scepter of Orr. I do have to say the GW1w page is not...very great about depicting what's in it. ~Sime 14:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)