User:Dr ishmael/IRC wikichat 20120613b

This is the log for the scheduled wikichat that occurred on June 13, 2012, at 3 PM PDT. All participants were notified of the logging and that the log would be posted here under the GFDL.

GW1W Segment

20:00:27: <stephane> ok enough football now :D
20:00:41: <Yoshida_Keiji> /prepares fireworks
20:00:57: <stephane> Hi everyone, let's now start this first WikiChat. Let me first thank you all for participating. I'd like to share some basic rules that we should follow during this WikiChat.
20:00:58: <Zesbeer> /ready
20:01:02: <stephane> Rule #0: Be aware that this chat is logged and will be made available on the wikis under a GFDL license.
20:01:07: <stephane> Rule #1: Keep in mind this WikiChat is about the wiki, not GW2 (betas, launch date, etc.)
20:01:12: <stephane> Rule #2: First 30 minutes are for the Guild Wars Wiki, last 30 minutes for the the Guild Wars 2 Wiki.
20:01:17: <stephane> Rule #3: I'll start and close a topic to discuss, we should each time focus on the topic that was started (follow-up discussions can be created on the wiki).
20:01:20: <stephane> Rule #4: Keep your questions and comments concise (short and to the point), as we only have very limited time and unnecessary comments will simply make the chat less readable.
20:01:25: <stephane> Rule #5: Be civil, I'll ban disruptive behaviour from the channel.
20:01:28: <stephane> END OF RULES (for the moment)

Administrative requests

20:01:38: <stephane> START ITEM1: Status of administrative requests
20:01:42: <stephane> I'd like to update you on what's going on here
20:01:46: <stephane> Basically we're working on a big update of our English wiki software environments
20:01:50: <stephane> The latest version of MediaWiki (1.19) is causing more work than anticipated
20:01:54: <stephane> because it requires updates at a system level
20:01:59: <stephane> and we want to wrap all important requests with this, notably Semantic MediaWiki extension
20:02:03: <stephane> and test all of that, which takes even more time
20:02:06: <stephane> Anyone has questions?
20:02:12: <stephane> (waiting on everyone to read)
20:02:24: <stephane> (for those who attended before: I'm copying and pasting the same template)
20:02:48: <Yoshida_Keiji> yeah you couldnt have typed all that ...that fast...
20:04:02: <stephane> I'll give this topic another 30s
20:04:10: <stephane> if there are no questions I'll close ^^
20:05:15: <stephane> END ITEM1: Status of administrative requests

Legal questions

20:05:23: <stephane> START ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked
20:05:29: <stephane> I clarified a few questions on the GW wiki
20:05:33: <stephane> and wanted to make sure that there's no follow up question on that
20:05:37: <stephane> so if you have a question, shoot now ^^
20:05:41: <stephane> the biggest change will be the text under the Edit window
20:05:44: <stephane> we're not changing the content but the form
20:05:48: <stephane> to point to the existing wiki page and make the message consistent accross all wikis
20:05:51: <stephane> then we changed one tiny detail about the license (about commercial guides)
20:05:54: <stephane> and I clarified that it does not change what was already done on the GW wiki
20:06:00: <stephane> and finally interlinking wikis
20:06:13: <stephane> which is not exactly relevant to the GW wiki
20:06:28: <stephane> any questions about these 3 subtopics?
20:06:32: <stephane> or comments
20:07:31: <stephane> I'll give this topic another 30s. If there are no questions after that, I'll close it ^^
20:08:18: <stephane> (wow this is quiet :)
20:08:33: <stephane> END ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked

Mobile version

20:08:39: <stephane> START ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis
20:08:48: <stephane> I think this idea came from GW2W.EN
20:08:52: <stephane> but wanted to ask people here if they thought it's a valuable idea
20:08:56: <stephane> wikis can already be seen on mobile/smart phones
20:09:01: <stephane> do you think it's something we should make even easier?
20:09:05: <stephane> do YOU watch the wikis on mobile/smart phones?
20:09:59: <Yoshida_Keiji> to read only could be fine but editing I think it will be messy, specially the people who duplicate information that is already displayed the line just above
20:10:23: <Zesbeer> my only - to this is the constantly having to switch from the mobile version to the non mobile version, which we don't have to deal with now.
20:10:24: <stephane> ?
20:10:29: <stephane> not sure I'm following
20:10:51: <Yoshida_Keiji> a lot of contributors write the same thing that was written before...just one line above it
20:11:03: <Yoshida_Keiji> as in redundancy
20:11:11: <Riddle> Editing with a phone (or even viewing in its current form) can end up being messy.
20:11:20: <Yoshida_Keiji> in a smaller screen they wont be able to pay that much attention
20:11:26: <stephane> Zesbeer: yes in general tech discussion will happen once the idea is deemed valuable (which it is sort of not at the moment, or at least at a much lower priority than say MediaWiki upgrade and installing Semanic MediaWiki)
20:11:53: <Riddle> We had a sysop unintentionally rolling back edits when they tried viewing the wiki through their phone.
20:11:58: <stephane> I'm not sure a lot of people will be editing on a smart/mobile phone and most who do may be conscious of those issues
20:12:08: <stephane> ah interesting Riddle
20:12:20: <stephane> was it because he mistyped due to "big fingers" ?
20:13:03: <Riddle> Maybe. People did get on her case for it, fwiw.
20:13:10: <Yoshida_Keiji> no , not talking about typos.... I mean tat the phone screen is not big enough to take an overlook like in previews
20:13:28: <stephane> I understand Yoshida
20:13:43: <stephane> ok it seems this topic gathers the same amount of passion as before ;)
20:13:50: <stephane> closing it unless people have something to add?
20:14:01: <Rudhraighe> the main reason for mobile access of the wiki is not editing but data/information lookup
20:14:10: <stephane> I agree
20:14:10: <Yoshida_Keiji> ok
20:14:17: <Infinite> (Not for everyone, but I concur.)
20:14:36: <stephane> editing seems like a side issue, if many people would think reading made sense, we could take a look at this
20:14:46: <Riddle> I think we should prioritize readability over editability (word please.)
20:14:46: <stephane> END ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis

Additional discussion

20:15:06: <stephane> now is the time for all GW wiki editors to add their topic, if they have one ^^
20:15:19: <stephane> or ask questions, make a comment, etc.
20:15:29: <Yoshida_Keiji> I have one
20:15:32: <stephane> yes?
20:15:35: <Yoshida_Keiji> image files
20:15:54: <Yoshida_Keiji> currently its a wikimedia not as easy to access as editing pages
20:16:24: <Yoshida_Keiji> I would like wiki to have a built in editing so that we can fix uploads
20:16:29: <stephane> what is the question? :)
20:16:44: <stephane> fix what exactly?
20:16:55: <Yoshida_Keiji> like a photobucket inside wiki
20:17:04: <dr_ishmael> you mean editing the image itself?
20:17:05: <Yoshida_Keiji> to fix map errors for example
20:17:14: <Aquadrizzt> Not a big fan of the idea tbh.
20:17:21: <Zesbeer> nor am i
20:17:21: <stephane> this sounds like a feature request discussion
20:17:34: <ee> the map will be interactive eventually
20:17:38: <stephane> yeah I'm not even sure that there's something easy to do that
20:17:45: <Yoshida_Keiji> ok
20:17:48: <stephane> if you know one Yoshida, please let us know on the relevant page
20:17:56: <Yoshida_Keiji> ok
20:18:07: <stephane> I know that WikiPedia as a special site for hosting pictures
20:18:25: <stephane> something that we considered at some point but were too busy exploring
20:18:50: <dr_ishmael> but even Wikimedia Commons doesn't allow image editing directly on the wiki - you have to use an external program like Gimp or Photoshop and then upload the new image
20:19:02: <stephane> yes it's not strictly related Ishmael
20:19:09: <stephane> I mentioned it because it's about pictures
20:19:19: <stephane> and now that we have language wikis, it may be useful
20:19:42: <Infinite> You don't want direct editting to images.
20:19:46: <Infinite> Vandalism inc.
20:20:06: <stephane> ok sounds like nothing to add ?
20:20:29: <Zesbeer> is there any news on the new website for gw1? and would you guys like us to get more stuff off the site? and is there any news about adding the video's from the site to the anet youtube channel?
20:20:32: <stephane> which would mean waiting 10 minutes to make sure that we do not miss anyone solely interesting the GW2W part
20:20:50: <stephane> ok it's not strictly wiki but I can answer
20:21:10: <stephane> the GW1 website deployment was delayed and I don't have an ETA on that
20:21:36: <stephane> from the discussion I've seen on the wiki, it looks like all the content deemed "save-worthy" has already been saved
20:22:21: <stephane> regarding videos, due to their quality and diversity, we haven't chosen to upload them to our youtube accounts but it's possible (if we find the time) that we save them to a new youtube channel
20:22:35: <stephane> since there hasn't been a high demand for that, we focused on other things
20:23:38: <Zesbeer> ok
20:24:09: <stephane> well if you have padding questions, feel free to share
20:25:09: <stephane> (sorry about the game Infinite ;)
20:25:37: <Infinite> (I don't really care, but I can't escape it anyway. National team and stuff like that.)
20:25:54: <Infinite> (Maybe it's time to move on to the GW2W part then?)
20:27:21: <stephane> I don't want to start in case GW2W people join at half time
20:27:34: <zeeZ> (In that case, I made something to ignore the game:)
20:27:53: <stephane> (what's that :P)
20:27:56: <Infinite> (Is that going to list new goals scored.)
20:27:59: <stephane> (oh noes!)
20:28:35: <zeeZ> (stephane has the power to !start, !stop and !resume :P messages like this one are ignored...)
20:29:14: <stephane> !start
20:29:14: <zeeZBot> Log file opened by stephane at http://wikilog.dragonwatch.net/2012-06-13_20-29-16.txt
20:29:18: <stephane> !stop
20:29:18: <zeeZBot> Log file closed by stephane at http://wikilog.dragonwatch.net/2012-06-13_20-29-16.txt
20:29:26: <Riddle> (that's wicked)
20:29:27: <stephane> is this a logging bot?
20:29:30: <Binary_llama> (NOW you tell him)
20:29:43: <stephane> if it is, then it's awesome zeeZ
20:29:44: <zeeZ> is that not obvious? :D
20:29:52: <stephane> I never know with you :)
20:29:59: <Yoshida_Keiji> Can I talk about feature again?
20:30:49: <stephane> Give me a second guys, I've got something to do
20:31:03: <Yoshida_Keiji> sometimes when editing, I mistakenly click and lose what I was doing....ugh...could there be some feature that could save a draft?
20:31:19: <zeeZ> trivial 90 lines of python
20:31:29: <stephane> back
20:31:30: <Infinite> In what way do you lose it? X out of the browser?
20:31:35: <stephane> !start
20:31:36: <zeeZBot> Log file opened by stephane at http://wikilog.dragonwatch.net/2012-06-13_20-31-39.txt

GW2W Segment

20:31:41: <stephane> Hi everyone, let's now start this first WikiChat. Let me first thank you all for participating. I'd like to share some basic rules that we should follow during this WikiChat.
20:31:46: <stephane> Rule #0: Be aware that this chat is logged and will be made available on the wikis under a GFDL license.
20:31:50: <stephane>  Rule #2: First 30 minutes are for the Guild Wars Wiki, last 30 minutes for the the Guild Wars 2 Wiki.
20:31:55: <stephane> Rule #3: I'll start and close a topic to discuss, we should each time focus on the topic that was started (follow-up discussions can be created on the wiki).
20:31:58: <stephane> Rule #4: Keep your questions and comments concise (short and to the point), as we only have very limited time and unnecessary comments will simply make the chat less readable.
20:32:01: <stephane> Rule #5: Be civil, I'll ban disruptive behaviour from the channel.
20:32:04: <stephane> END OF RULES (for the moment)

Administrative requests

20:32:32: <stephane> START ITEM1: Status of administrative requests
20:32:34: <Yoshida_Keiji> I usually edit with many tabs open and when double ckeching , instead of clicking on a tab that im not editing.... I lose what I was doing and have to re start
20:32:40: <stephane> I'd like to update you on what's going on here
20:32:45: <stephane> Basically we're working on a big update of our English wiki software environments
20:32:49: <stephane> The latest version of MediaWiki (1.19) is causing more work than anticipated
20:32:56: <stephane> because it requires updates at a system level
20:33:00: <stephane> and we want to wrap all important requests with this, notably Semantic MediaWiki extension
20:33:02: <stephane> and test all of that, which takes even more time
20:33:05: <stephane> Anyone has questions?
20:33:39: <Zesbeer> did you see the recent request for extension: https login?
20:33:49: <stephane> no I did not
20:33:56: <stephane> takign a look now
20:33:59: <Infinite> Yoshida: What browser are you using?
20:34:22: <Infinite> Many browsers support re-opening a closed tab with the content that was there before closing it.
20:34:24: <Yoshida_Keiji> I dont understand the question (non native english speaker)
20:34:27: <stephane> Wesbeer: it's not on the request for tech admin page
20:34:41: <Zesbeer> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki_talk:Requests_for_technical_administration#Extension:HttpsLogin
20:34:54: <Infinite> How do you browse the internet; IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera, another browser?
20:35:03: <Yoshida_Keiji> IE
20:35:20: <stephane> I usually only look at the actual page, not the discussions
20:35:25: <Infinite> Oh, I don't know if IE has that feature yet.
20:35:30: <stephane> but feel free to pull me into a discussion if needed
20:35:47: <stephane> Yoshida: do you mind if we keep that discussion for the end of this chat please?
20:35:57: <Yoshida_Keiji> my article overhaulings can take me an hour.... I did misclick while at some mission cutdowns
20:36:03: <Yoshida_Keiji> sure, sorry
20:36:08: <stephane> no worries, thanks
20:36:25: <Yoshida_Keiji> alright
20:36:33: <stephane> Zesbeer: let me know if I'm needed on that feature request discussion
20:36:51: <stephane> any other question?
20:37:10: <stephane> END ITEM1: Status of administrative requests

Legal questions

20:37:15: <stephane> START ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked
20:37:22: <stephane> I clarified a few questions on the GW and GW2 wikis
20:37:30: <stephane> and wanted to make sure that there's no follow up question on that
20:37:36: <stephane> the biggest change will be the text under the Edit window
20:37:40: <stephane> we're not changing the content but the form
20:37:43: <stephane> to point to the existing wiki page and make the message consistent accross all wikis
20:37:47: <stephane> then we changed one tiny detail about the license (about commercial guides)
20:37:50: <stephane> and I clarified that it does not change what was already done on the GW wiki
20:37:54: <stephane> and finally interlinking wikis
20:37:58: <stephane> if you have a question, shoot now ^^
20:38:43: <Riddle> There was a site
20:38:48: <Riddle> I can't remember the URL
20:39:06: <Riddle> That had somehow mimicked both wikis in their entirety, except for user login data
20:39:18: <stephane> like phishing?
20:39:21: <Riddle> Even the recent changes were the same to a point in time.
20:39:25: <stephane> or more like illegal copying?
20:39:29: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> full screen scrapes
20:39:44: <stephane> I vaguely remember something like that
20:39:56: <stephane> you may want to remind me, either on my talkpage or via email
20:40:04: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> gwzilla.com
20:40:08: <Riddle> I reformatted my computer and lost my IRC logs, but I think the url might be in #gww
20:40:13: <Riddle> Yes
20:40:28: <stephane> keeping it in my list of things to look at
20:40:37: <stephane> thanks Riddle
20:40:51: <Riddle> No problem.
20:40:55: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> any word on those sites like guildwars2warrior.com?
20:41:15: <stephane> they haven't replied to me
20:41:29: <stephane> the only way I found to contact them was via twitter
20:41:41: <stephane> if anyone has any other contact info, let me know
20:42:25: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> I'm not too sure about this, but you might be able to get hosting information for the sites
20:43:01: <stephane> this kind of information is usually not very reliable for communicating with site owners
20:43:04: <stephane> but I can try
20:43:18: <dr_ishmael> if nothing else, you can find out who owns the domain names
20:43:18: <stephane> thanks for the suggestion Jon
20:43:27: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=guildwars2warrior.com&prog_id=GoDaddy
20:43:36: <dr_ishmael> ^exactly
20:43:36: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> just a quick lookup (used the first hosting site i could think of)
20:43:59: <stephane> :)
20:44:04: <stephane> let's take this offline
20:44:08: <stephane> feel free to remind me Jon
20:44:20: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> works for me
20:44:22: <stephane> END ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked

Interface redesign

20:44:33: <stephane> START ITEM3: GW2 Wiki interface redesign
20:44:44: <stephane> so are people happy about it?
20:44:49: <stephane> because we are ^^
20:45:04: <Riddle> Yes. It's brilliant
20:45:04: <stephane> and the previous chat seemed to agree
20:45:13: <zeeZ> I still agree!
20:45:14: <stephane> yes white logo will become red again ^^
20:45:15: <Tanetris> White logo's already fixed
20:45:22: <stephane> WOW
20:45:29: <stephane> that's amazing Tanetris
20:45:37: <stephane> it's happening WHILE WE'RE TALKING
20:45:41: <Tanetris> It was fixed within like 5 mins of the end of the last chat
20:45:49: <stephane> Kudos
20:46:07: <Zesbeer> its funny to me that people dislike it on the wiki but are fine with it on the forums (or maybe they are non-vocal about it)
20:46:13: <stephane> I still see it white :P
20:46:22: <Tanetris> Refresh cache and so forth?
20:46:26: <stephane> peopole dislike it on the wiki Zesbeer?
20:46:40: <stephane> here we go, Ctrl+F5 insteald of Ctrl+R
20:46:44: <stephane> thanks Tane
20:46:46: <Zesbeer> the white logo
20:46:55: <stephane> ah ok
20:46:59: <stephane> weird indeed
20:47:37: <stephane> I personanlly prefer the red logo as you can see more hints of red ^^
20:47:59: <stephane> nothing to add I guess :)
20:47:59: <FelixOmni> ahaha, I totally forgot this was going on
20:48:07: <Karasu> ^same
20:48:09: <stephane> this topic was a bit like a congratulations :)
20:48:11: <FelixOmni> Can you guys summarize everything from the last 4 hours for me?
20:48:23: <stephane> Felix: look at the logs on the wiki :P
20:48:29: <Zesbeer> ^
20:48:31: <FelixOmni> ):
20:48:33: <stephane> END ITEM3: GW2 Wiki interface redesign

List of fansites

20:48:42: <stephane> START ITEM4: List of fansites
20:48:46: <stephane> I noticed that the wiki policy has changed on that
20:48:49: <stephane> and the list ended up being super short
20:48:54: <stephane> it's actually something that the community team discussed a while ago and we'd like to share an idea
20:48:59: <stephane> or I shall say a request
20:49:06: <stephane> we'd like to have a much more complete list of fansites that we'd link from our webpage
20:49:10: <stephane> but I understand that this page caused a lot of trouble to the wiki?
20:49:20: <Karasu> any restrictions for that 'complete list'?
20:49:23: <stephane> in the previous chat, there was an agreement about discussing this idea
20:49:24: <FelixOmni> It's difficult to establish a standard of notability that people agree on
20:49:35: <stephane> yes we're fully aware of that issue
20:49:39: <stephane> and what I said before
20:49:53: <Karasu> in GW I remember fansites that advertise other games couldn't be fully recognized
20:49:54: <stephane> is that this is something that I can discuss with the community as I have ideas and information to provide
20:50:07: <dr_ishmael> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Dr_ishmael/IRC_wikichat_20120613a
20:50:11: <stephane> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fansites
20:50:31: <stephane> so I want to make sure that no one has a major objection to going ahead with this project
20:50:38: <stephane> it'll have to happen through the wiki
20:50:44: <Karasu> The amount of fansites will be very large.. it could be populated with abandoned sites too.
20:50:44: <Zesbeer> might there be a official  gw2 site program like there was for gw1 (i might be remembering that wrong?)
20:51:10: <FelixOmni> if Anet gave us a baseline, like "you must be this popular to qualify," we'd be able to maintain it
20:51:15: <FelixOmni> Otherwise it's too subjective
20:51:17: <stephane> Wesbeer: we already said in Martin's blogpost about our community philosophy that there won't
20:51:39: <Infinite> Actually, if we can copy ArenaNet's list, we'd be out of trouble altogether.
20:51:42: <FelixOmni> if the baseline is "Anything goes," we can work with that too
20:51:43: <Karasu> http://guildwars.com/community/fansites/ for reference
20:51:43: <Zesbeer> k did't remember that
20:51:53: <stephane> Felix: we don't think that a baseline would be defined in those terms and I'd like to offer our "vision" on that
20:52:09: <Zesbeer> wesbeer haven't heard that before... 
20:52:11: <stephane> it's a tough subject
20:52:22: <stephane> but we think that the wiki is a good place to have this discussion
20:52:36: <stephane> and we would link to that page from our website
20:52:43: <stephane> which would increase the visibility of the wiki
20:52:47: <Infinite> It's been noted on my notepad.
20:52:51: <stephane> but require a cautious management of that page
20:53:11: <Karasu> Is there any minimum requirerements to be listed on the wiki as fansite?
20:53:21: <Riddle> It's not hard to protect that page, but that might be against the spirit.
20:53:31: <Infinite> (Hey!) 
20:53:32: <Karasu> Suggest-a-fansite form?
20:53:35: <FelixOmni> My main concern is that it would make a potentially useful article into a repository of personal blogs that no one bothers to scroll through
20:53:44: <stephane> Karasu: at the moment this is a project idea, we're simply discussing whether there's a major obstacle stopping us to start discussing this
20:53:54: <Rudhraighe> as long as we mimic the official site i don't see a conflict
20:54:13: <FelixOmni> the official site would be using the article instead
20:54:18: <stephane> Felix: categories would be important in our opinion
20:54:28: <stephane> Rudhraighe: mimic what site?
20:54:31: <Shew> well for one, we could make it look more appealing than just a long list (optional logos)
20:54:41: <stephane> exactly Shew
20:54:44: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> Would it be useful to have 2 categories of sites: vetted and non-vetted?
20:54:57: <FelixOmni> An image for every entry would make the page a nightmare to load
20:55:08: <Yoshida_Keiji>  /agrees
20:55:10: <stephane> this doesn't feel like a good idea but could be developped during the discussion
20:55:20: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> like, anyone can add to the non-vetted list, and periodically move some from the non-vetted to the vetted, and clean up the vetted list
20:55:21: <Ee> is it anet's proposal to have guild pages on the wiki as well?
20:55:24: <Zesbeer> i think it would be useful to have categories like blog, forum, news
20:55:24: <Karasu> FelixOmni: you can split it up in several pages depending on cathegory. Like a multi-page catalogue
20:55:27: <stephane> I propose we don't start the discussion here :)
20:55:32: <Rudhraighe> or even a preferred site listing at the top as in days of old 
20:55:35: <FelixOmni> That's an option
20:55:39: <stephane> yeah my thought too Karasu, but that's a topic to discuss
20:55:56: <stephane> Rudhraighe: we're no longer in the days of old ;P
20:55:56: <FelixOmni> I gotta catch a train, I'll read the logs later
20:55:59: <FelixOmni> Bye all!
20:56:02: <stephane> thanks Felix
20:56:03: <stephane> seeya
20:56:04: <Shew> *bye
20:56:19: <stephane> ok looks like this discussion will be interesting to have
20:56:27: <stephane> I say we move to the last quick topic
20:56:30: <Karasu> I'll gladly take part
20:56:31: <Riddle> Yes
20:56:34: <stephane> END ITEM4: List of fansites

Mobile version

20:56:43: <stephane> START ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis
20:56:54: <stephane> I think this idea came from GW2W.EN
20:56:58: <stephane> but wanted to ask people here if they thought it's a valuable idea
20:57:01: <stephane> wikis can already be seen on mobile/smart phones
20:57:04: <stephane> do you think it's something we should make even easier?
20:57:07: <stephane> do YOU watch the wikis on mobile/smart phones?
20:57:15: <stephane> the previous chat gathered a low interest for that
20:57:27: <Karasu> Well.. actually I was counting on an in-game wiki browser
20:57:36: <stephane> and it's definitely much less important than, say, MediaWiki software upgrade or Semantic MediaWiki exwtension
20:57:42: <Infinite> That's a separate topic, though.
20:57:52: <Karasu> since that could use a reduction similar to a mobile version, they would be on the same topic
20:57:55: <stephane> I can talk about that after ITEM5 Karasu ^^
20:58:01: <Zesbeer> dose the server team have statics for how many people are visiting the site via mobile?
20:58:32: <stephane> I have the statistics Weszeer and, although I have to check again, there's a small number of people doing this
20:58:39: <Karasu> I wouldn't mind seeing a mobile version at all. As long as it doesn't come at a cost for the main wiki
20:58:51: <Zesbeer> weszeer really?
20:59:00: <Karasu> lol zes..
20:59:02: <stephane> Zesbeer sorry
20:59:11: <Zesbeer> lol np
20:59:12: <stephane> sorry typing in 2 windows at the same time ;P
20:59:16: <Rudhraighe> even a text without images or editing mobile version would be ok
20:59:39: <stephane> yeah details of the implementation would have to be discussed anyway
20:59:51: <Karasu> But... if there was a mobile GW2 database app that contains the same info..
20:59:52: <Infinite> One thing about that statistic; does it include tablet users?
21:00:04: <stephane> Infinite: I'm not sure, I'd have to check
21:00:12: <Karasu> wouldn't that be more useful? It's a project we'll definitly see coming from the community (i know some people..)
21:00:21: <stephane> Karasu: I don't care about other sites, I'm here for the official wiki
21:00:29: <Zesbeer> i know i few the wiki from my tablet all the time, Including during the last 2 bwe
21:00:32: <stephane> sorry to be blunt
21:00:37: <Riddle> I think, as part of the EE, that mobile-support is a must.
21:00:42: <Infinite> There are various unofficial apps in development, but that's outside our field of play.
21:00:44: <Zesbeer> I view*
21:00:45: <Karasu> I'm saying, if there is a popular database app I think less people will use the wiki mobile
21:00:50: <Riddle> How it's done is another subject.
21:00:53: <stephane> although this topic is related, this is not the topic at hand
21:01:45: <stephane> ok so mixed feedback on that too, consistent with what was said before
21:01:48: <Karasu> mm.. I'd vote pro mobile, as long as it doesn't affect the normal wiki behaviour
21:02:01: <stephane> END ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis

Additional discussion

21:02:07: <stephane> now is the time for further topics
21:02:12: <stephane> let's start with wiki integration
21:02:20: <Karasu>  !yes
21:02:45: <Zesbeer> how is it going to work?
21:02:55: <stephane> I've been looking at that for a while now and this is on the todo list of the developers (or rather, "to design" list) but it's not very high due to the obvious focus on the game
21:03:04: <stephane> I don't know Zesbeer
21:03:11: <Zesbeer> k
21:03:18: <Karasu> Nobody else? In my own experience, I've seen several games that include a wiki browser. Since people are going to play the game and browse the wiki anyway, an in-game browser would be useful
21:03:18: <stephane> but as soon as I know more, I'll be in touch with the wiki community
21:03:44: <stephane> Karasu: I'm fully aware of how useful it is, e.g. GW
21:03:57: <Yoshida_Keiji> I like the idea, less lame questions in AC...although I hear no alliances in GW2
21:03:58: <stephane> but the development focus is on the game
21:04:00: <Ee> yes i'd rather have it ingame than a new browser window, but i won't die from it
21:04:06: <Karasu> GW just linked to the wiki, and wasn't advertised as much as it could toward the players
21:04:11: <Ee> other things are much more urgent
21:04:23: <stephane> exactly EE, it's not a "must have" but a "nice to have"
21:04:44: <Karasu> what do you want to discuss specifically?
21:04:49: <Zesbeer> it is a awesome tool to help new players though
21:05:01: <stephane> I hope that we can come up with a nice design of how wiki is integrated but I'll be honest in telling you that I don't know how or when we'll do that
21:05:19: <stephane> I just want you to be aware that it's on my list and I'll keep asking for it
21:05:26: <Riddle> Cool.
21:05:30: <Ee> maybe put a reference to the existance of the chat command in he help window
21:05:32: <Yoshida_Keiji> a search box in User Interface?
21:05:38: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> should we plan on having meta-data for each page, where you can get a preview of the information on it? 
21:05:43: <Karasu> Well.. if you make it a specific function you might want to limit editing from inside the wiki
21:05:58: <Karasu> *inside the game
21:05:59: <Infinite> If I may suggest a way; much like how shift + click, alt + click, and ctrl + click have their features in-game, so to could (per example) ? +click.
21:06:04: <Infinite> too*
21:06:13: <stephane> Jon: I think that at a technical leve a lot of things can be done and your idea sounds interesting
21:06:19: <Shew> What if players could opt in to automatically submit data (e.g. drop data, etc.)?
21:06:25: <Zesbeer> infinite that would be awesome
21:06:36: <stephane> if players want to start a page on this (without any promise from us of course), feel free to do so
21:06:51: <stephane> all this sounds really interesting
21:07:14: <stephane> however (re Jon) don't plan ahead
21:07:18: <stephane> not until we all know more
21:07:21: <Karasu> Hmm.. another thing: it would also be nice to see an api or database from the wiki.
21:07:49: <stephane> something to add to this page someone will create
21:08:10: <Karasu> since fan apps would need a database for skills etc, they'll probably harvest it from the wiki
21:08:26: <Ee> yea because now they'll get it from gw2guru db
21:08:32: <Riddle> Eh, vandalism would potentially be more catastrophic.
21:08:33: <stephane> as long as they attribute the information to the wiki, it's fine
21:08:43: <Riddle> Though, tbh, I have no idea how those sorts of dbs work.
21:08:56: <Shew> doesn't that go back to what you said about other sites using wiki material?
21:09:02: <stephane> anyone has another topic to bring to the discussion?
21:09:08: <Karasu> Riddle: it's the format. Guru doesn't give a real database you can lookup in for a site or app
21:09:11: *poke` waves21:09:19: *stephane waves back21:09:23: <stephane> 9 minutes late
21:09:32: <stephane> any last question, commentc, etc. ?
21:09:33: <poke`> How could you schedule these during the Germany game? D: (xD)
21:09:35: <Zesbeer> hai poke
21:09:35: <Karasu> you have to read or export it to a better format, that's where you can help by standardizing and helping export the data
21:09:45: <Riddle> mmk
21:09:47: <Rudhraighe> it would be nice to be able to link the marketplace data into the wiki
21:09:56: <Riddle> I have a question
21:10:03: <Shew> so then in what cases would you prefer sites to not use wiki information?
21:10:14: <Karasu> important factor there is changes..
21:10:28: <stephane> Shew: our (and my) task is to build the official wikis, the rest is not  exactly our business
21:10:30: <Karasu> Rudhraighe: do you mean up to date item price info?
21:10:43: <stephane> I think we're getting sidetracked here
21:10:43: <Rudhraighe> no the data from item stats
21:10:45: <poke`> I'd like to response to one thing that has been said during the first session, if that's acceptable :o
21:10:45: <Shew> understood.
21:10:49: <Riddle> Will ArenaNet staff and devs take on something like an admin role on GW2W? I think devs did have sysops on GWW, but they pretty much felt like normal users.
21:10:53: <Karasu> The Runescape wiki (unofficial one) has some method of keeping track of market prices for items
21:10:57: <stephane> yes Rudhraighe it is
21:11:33: <poke`> 17:23:01: <Infinite> As an avid wiki editor via smartphone, I say yes (regardless of my screen's resolution).
21:11:45: <stephane> Riddle: I'm have some privileges but it's not my role
21:12:03: <poke`> ^ I'd like to mention that the usual mobile solutions for wiki do not include anything to enhance editing on a smartphone, and it's generally very hard to make it easier
21:12:04: <stephane> yes poke?
21:12:07: <Riddle> okay
21:12:23: <stephane> yes poke, we already mentioned that this would need to be discussed
21:12:25: <poke`> especially given that you edit a whole page at once and smartphones work really bad with long text boxes
21:12:32: <Riddle> Yoshida_Keiji, didn't you want to bring up something?
21:12:37: <stephane> the discussion here was mainly about gathering public interest (or rahter lack of at this point)
21:12:38: <Karasu> Well.. actually all the data we need for the wiki could be supplied by ANet. For several reasons they're not doing this and putting the task of collecting data & discovering stuff in the player's hands
21:12:43: <Infinite> Oh, I know. I'm talking mostly about small fixes.
21:12:59: <Infinite> Small fixes on my phone can span whole pages, but not everyone has that luxury.
21:13:25: <Ee> i don't mind that so bad Karasu, it's like an extension of the game inbetween BWEs
21:13:39: <poke`> I am Stephane, hence my reply on what was said then ;P
21:13:52: <stephane> anything else?
21:14:02: <Yoshida_Keiji> the save draft thing
21:14:10: <Karasu> You are Stephane, poke`?µ
21:14:30: *stephane slaps Karasu ;)21:14:30: <Karasu> Small Q: any news on the GPL issues?
21:14:39: <poke`> <Karasu> Well.. actually all the data we need for the wiki could be supplied by ANet. <- My hope is that when the GW2 extended experience is out and public for devs (if that's ever going to happen) that we can find a way for the wiki to access the data as well. And if that involves a wiki extension or a Semantic MW extension-extension, why not?
21:14:42: <stephane> Yoshida: can you explain please?
21:14:42: <Riddle> That might be something for technical administration.
21:15:02: <stephane> Karasu: what issues?
21:15:11: <stephane> DPL? GPL?
21:15:18: <Karasu> the reason the feedback space from GW exists
21:15:24: <Zesbeer> le confused.... 
21:15:25: <Karasu> ANet can't use anything that's under GPL
21:15:56: <poke`> *GFDL
21:16:00: <poke`> ?
21:16:01: <Yoshida_Keiji> There are several pages that have overbloated with text to a size of 20.000 bytes... when somebody goes to overhaul for cutdown and has like 10 windows tabs... you can accidentaly click a link withint the tab you were editing and when the new page opens.... the editing is lost and has to re start...
21:16:02: <Zesbeer> there is like 4 topics going on at once right now...
21:16:09: <Karasu> poke`: As a backup I'm looking into having a script ready that can read the difference in each version to detect updates and update the wiki
21:16:37: <Yoshida_Keiji> those overhauls can take someone 1h-2hs
21:16:37: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> I think the forums are the solution to feedback namespace
21:17:00: <poke`> Karasu: Obviously, but having a direct link is preferable over a bot - but sure, we'll find a way to get the data on the wiki in any case.
21:17:02: <Karasu> Well.. the GW wiki is licenced in such a way that ArenaNet can't official use anything that's posted there. The GWW feedback space has an ANet license
21:17:32: <dr_ishmael> Yoshida: when i do an overhaul that big, i use an external text editor, rather than editing it in the wiki's edit box
21:17:35: <Infinite> I feel this discussion would benefit from answering in turns and segments.
21:18:11: <poke`> The Feedback namespace was created so that ANet could use our feedback in their commercial game without proper attribution (i.e. adhering to the GFDL). With the official forums there, I don't see a reason to collect anything feedback-like on the GW2Ws
21:18:17: <stephane> the discussion is actually over I think
21:18:21: <stephane> we're jsut chichatting
21:18:26: <stephane> or did I miss an important question?
21:18:31: <Karasu> poke`: I agree.. More official solutions would are much more efficient and benefit both sides. I'm very clear in my proposals for EE but am looking for alternatives just in case
21:18:45: <Infinite> I noticed that, but it's confusing to connect messages to their questions and interjections. :P
21:18:55: <stephane> indeed ^^
21:18:59: <Karasu> stephane: well, that licensing issue. Is ANet allowed to take information posted by users in the GW2W?
21:19:21: <stephane> no we're not
21:19:29: <poke`> theoretically, no. As GFDL requires relicensing and attribution.
21:19:29: <stephane> that has to go through the GWW
21:19:30: <stephane> BUT
21:19:44: <stephane> I'll work (whenever I have the time) on setting this up for GW2W
21:19:51: <Pling> oh god please no ><
21:19:51: <stephane> provided that
21:19:58: <stephane> the GW2W is not against it
21:20:03: <Pling> ^ phew :P
21:20:10: <Karasu> I'm looking forward to the new lisencing
21:20:37: <stephane> it'll be no change from what's happening on the GWW, except GW2 suggestions would end up on GW2W
21:20:40: <dr_ishmael> i'm with Pling - with the official forums, there's no need to have it on the wiki anymore
21:21:01: <Shew> I'm with Pling as well. The wiki doesn't need to turn into more than what it is already.
21:21:04: <Karasu> Hmm.. I don't see the reason why you wouldn't do it?
21:21:20: <poke`> Stephane: Please don't work in any direction in moving or creating a feedback namespace on GW2W :(
21:21:22: <Karasu> Pling: I'd gladly hear your reasoning
21:21:25: <Yoshida_Keiji> oh.....yes that.....feedbacks....
21:21:26: <stephane> in principle, we tend to agree with this but it's more complicated
21:21:40: <Yoshida_Keiji> in GWW feedbacks are all messed up....
21:21:42: <stephane> forums are for example closed now
21:21:56: <poke`> but eventually forums will open up permanently
21:21:58: <Yoshida_Keiji> and many feedbakcs are overly repeated
21:22:06: <stephane> we do not envision the wiki as being the one place where feedback should be
21:22:15: <Pling> feedback is a mess that i'd rather we didn't have to deal with, with little benefit to the wiki, unknown benefit to anet, and made unnecessary with official forums
21:22:22: <stephane> that's not our desire to make these changes on a permanent basis
21:22:26: <poke`> and collecting feedback for a game in development on a wiki is a horrible idea (not to mention that it is a bad idea anyway)..
21:22:34: <Karasu> feedback would work better outside forum format. With voting, forms and other helpful features to cathegorize and follow-up more easily
21:22:36: <Infinite> Can we skip feedback on GW2W altogether, please?
21:22:44: <Infinite> GWW --> Official forums.
21:22:44: <stephane> in an ideal world, we'll remove the feedback namespace from wikis
21:22:47: <Karasu> but yes, i'd rather have the official forums than the wiki feedback namespace
21:23:03: <Rudhraighe> oh  stephane is Butternut Spuash a actual intended item name ?
21:23:11: <poke`> If it's not a permanent solution, please don't even bother introducing the mess to GW2W and just keep it on GWW where it already is.
21:23:15: <stephane> Spuash?
21:23:20: <stephane> you mean Squash
21:23:22: <Rudhraighe> yup
21:23:26: <Rudhraighe> Spuash
21:23:30: <Infinite> It's an "official typo"
21:23:37: <stephane> poke: that's another option
21:23:52: <Infinite> We urge you to consider it.
21:23:52: <poke`> It's the better option if you don't have a off-wiki solution for now.
21:24:04: <Pling> the in-game item is called spuash, when it should be squash, though i don't think anyone actually thinks it is *intentionally* spuash...
21:24:04: <stephane> please report official typos on official forums :P
21:24:11: <Karasu> Well.. Currently ANet staff is discouraged from reading the wiki. That's one thing I would want to avoid
21:24:12: <poke`> It is already "working" on GWW, and we really really don't want to split up that mess on two wikis..
21:24:14: <stephane> Infinite: we are considering it
21:24:22: <stephane> I know poke
21:24:25: <Zesbeer> official forums are closed... 
21:24:34: <stephane> exactly
21:24:38: <Infinite> But as stated, they will be open after release.
21:24:46: <Ee> hmm maybe just do a search on the wiki on 'sic' and you'll get lots of typos already
21:24:47: <stephane> ok 24 mintues late!
21:25:04: <dr_ishmael> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Sic
21:25:11: <stephane> if there's nothing hot to discuss, I have some work to do :)
21:25:12: <poke`> Karasu: A feedback namespace doesn't help that, because then they are limited to only that. That's why I proposed opening the wiki for ANet usage completely a while back but it didn't gain much interest..
21:25:19: <stephane> thanks for the link Ishmael
21:25:20: <Infinite> But anyway; we've moved from wiki-discussion onto game-discussion.
21:25:28: <Infinite> And that's not the point of this meeting.
21:25:34: <poke`> I didn't Infinite.
21:25:38: <Infinite> Not you! :D
21:25:40: <Ee> yes yes  stephane, go finish my game
21:25:46: <stephane> I'll probably be afk until the next meeting in 2h35
21:25:48: <Riddle> !stop it, or whatever.
21:25:53: <Karasu> poke`: exactly, that's my motivation too
21:25:53: <stephane> I would like to sincerely thank you for being here
21:25:58: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> Yeah, we found out about the licensing issue about a year into the new wiki and didn't want to redo the existing content.
21:26:14: <stephane> it's been a pleasure talking to you
21:26:23: <Yoshida_Keiji> salute a tout le monde !
21:26:25: <Infinite> I can't promise to attend the third meeting; I have an 8AM appointment.
21:26:28: <Karasu> thanks stephane!
21:26:28: <Zesbeer> latter.
21:26:37: <poke`> Jon: I proposed a solution for the old content then; and I was primarily thinking about the new content. But now it's too late anyway.