User talk:A F K When Needed/Mesmer/Archive

For the record

It's not that I'm desperately hoping to crush the dreams of people who like Mesmers, I just wanted an excuse to list all of the Gods in one ridiculous sentence. Also, no, a normal Asura does not count.

I'd vaguely prefer a new profession, but if it ends up being the Mesmer profession, I can live with that. I think. A F K When Needed 22:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

You know, your main point — that they ruined the surprise — is pretty much true no matter what profession they reveal, since it's a returning GW1 profession, so in any case I'm pretty sure there are people out there who'll say "I knew it !" Heck, many people had guessed the Engineer's name (at the very least) without too much trouble. I mean, we all know there are only 3 possible names for the profession — Mesmer, Dervish or Paragon — so the profession's name is definitely not where the surprise will be.

Also, you kinda kill your own point right afterwards — if the Death Shroud or Attunement mechanics are cool enough for the final profession, how do you know Anet hasn't given the third scholar *coughMesmercough* his own unique, super-cool mechanics ?

Finally, I'd like to apologize if I sound offensive, offended, or ranting at all, since I'm mostly answering to this out of boredness.

PS : It seems from Mr Sparkles' story that Asura use Vekk's name instead of God. You might want to add him to your list ;) -Alarielle- 22:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

"You know, your main point — that they ruined the surprise — is pretty much true no matter what profession they reveal" - There's a difference. I like those professions. :P On a serious note; you're quite right. I had intended those to be separate points, but I'm tired and must've failed at communicating that. I'll change it tomorrow. If I remember. Which I won't.

Really it's just a profession I never gelled with well. Was sometimes effective in PvP, but I just didn't enjoy playing it. I loved being a Monk and saving the day. I loved being a Necro. I loved spamming my Zaishen emote on April Fools. I loved a lot of things in Guild Wars... that profession wasn't one of them.

The profession always struck me as a bad design due to how awkward it was to have balanced in both PvE and PvP; Rangers weren't as bad. Not nearly. I'd go so far as to say the entire purpose of a Mesmer is invalid in PvE. If the objective is "lolAoE nuke shit down ASAP", a lot of Mesmer skills become useless instantly. They're not designed for that. At all. ArenaNet have noticed how much bigger a deal PvE is in GW than they'd originally anticipated, and has tried to backtrack. Having a Mesmer hero with Panic can be pretty nice. But it's just a band-aid in the shape of an OP skill. This is - in a small way - due to the number of OP nukes in the game but... it's still simply a design that's invalid in PvE. Either you have Visions of Regret - and PvP is a joke. Or you have Empathy - and you're a joke in PvE. Having skills do different things in PvE than in PvP is a band-aid fix to mask terrible design.

Sure, naturally some skills excel in either PvE or PvP. But - before recent Making Guild Wars A PvE Game One Update At A Time^TM updates, 99% of their skills were far too pointless in PvE. You could get by most of the time, but you were the weakest link. Putting in twice the effort of the facerolling Warrior who had a much bigger impact than you did.

Warning: I basically havn't slept in three days. GL reading that. A F K When Needed 22:57, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

So, from what I have seen is that Mesmers are currently more effective at nuking, control and support than most other casters in GW. 2 of them makes a party nearly untouchable in PvE and at least one of them can harass enemies until they /gquit. It is not my favourite profession as a playable one, but it certainly is my most adored profession on any hero (another sign that GW is broken). - Infinite - talk 00:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I completely understand your point — and I agree with parts of it, though really a PvE Mesmer has become fun recently. But I don't see whybad design in GW1 must mean this profession will be badly designed in GW2 as well. Why not just keep an open mind ? =D -Alarielle- 00:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree with Alarielle. You said that "Necromancers have a cool new 'Death Shroud' mechanic. Elementalist's auras actually do something now. There are so many better options for the final reveal than the Mesmer." That sounds like you're certain that the mesmer won't get a big overhaul and nifty mechanics. And if the mesmer is the 8th profession, they will have to do an extreme overhaul, because hexes and interrupts don't exist anymore as they were in gw 1.--El_Nazgir 07:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You put Panic on some charr and watch PvE own itself while your heroes spam nukes without any logic? Spamming Wastrel's and IoP on recharge in PvP? Yes, Mesmer is very fun and skill based profession these days.

I sure hope GW2 8th profession, whatever it is, will require more discretion and tactics than how Mesmer currently plays in GW1. Mediggo 09:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

"ArenaNet have noticed how much bigger a deal PvE is in GW than they'd originally anticipated, and has tried to backtrack. Having a Mesmer hero with Panic can be pretty nice. But it's just a band-aid in the shape of an OP skill."

"really a PvE Mesmer has become fun recently"

"Yes, Mesmer is very fun and skill based profession these days."

"from what I have seen is that Mesmers are currently more effective at nuking, control and support than most other casters in GW"

I was discussing the design of the class, not ArenaNet's tendency to worship power creep as the answer to all of their problems.

Yes, like... every other profession in the game, Mesmers currently enjoy OP skills. That speaks nothing of the design of the class. Mesmers were originally terrible in PvE, for a reason. A profession like that is nigh on impossible to balance successfully in both PvE and PvP. Existing flaws - which are always there to some extent - compound the matter. You can look at nearly any attribute and form a list of "for PvE" and a list of "for PvP". But with Mesmers... well, there was "for PvP", and there was "equally bad in both".

"Mesmer heroes are cool [these days]" - there are no heroes in Guild Wars 2. Your point is invalid. See also: A handful of OP goodies is not "a profession design". It's power creep. The two terms are not interchangeable.

"That sounds like you're certain that the mesmer won't get a big overhaul and nifty mechanics."

In Guild Wars you used Earth Attunement when using Earth Magic skills.

In Guild Wars you used Water Attunement when using Water Magic skills.

In Guild Wars you used Fire Attunement when using Fire Magic skills.

In Guild Wars you used Air Attunement when using Air Magic skills.

...is this not also true of Guild Wars 2?

The Mesmer profession was a class which used hexes to control the enemy, while throwing out the original interrupt.

...is this the case in Guild Wars 2?

For the Mesmer (to control) profession to ever be viable, controlling one enemy in PvE has to be equally balanced against controlling one enemy in PvP. That will pretty much never work. So, neither will the Mesmer. Sure, give it a new Energy Shroud mechanic. Any mechanic you want. Either the core design - to control (read: to mesmerise) - changes, or it won't work. If they do fix it, the name Mesmer will no longer be appropriate. It will be an ENTIRELY different profession.

I swear, sometimes I think ArenaNet could unveil the Warlock profession, and people would embraced it as the Mesmer. It's either the Mesmer (flawed design aimed at manipulating the enemy), or it is not. I see no viable middle ground. A F K When Needed 12:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

That might be exactly why the profession reveal is delayed. All professions can be expected to be tweaked before release. But this final profession, they're taking their time before even releasing it. Mediggo 12:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh and warlock is too similiar to necromancer. Mediggo 12:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd thought of that. I'd also thought of the possibility the game as a whole was delayed, so they're trying to drag it out more.

By the way, I've presented my stance much more clearly now (I think), so I'd be greatly interested in your opinion of the second draft if you have the time and feel like checking it out. ^ ^

The Warlock is just an example of a class that has nothing in common with the Mesmer profession. Attack the logic, and not the example, please. ;) I never suggested it be a part of Guild Wars 2; I only mentioned it in passing to illustrate a point. A F K When Needed 12:51, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

E-denial - the fundamental tactic of mesmers, is BROKEN in PvE. It had never been a viable tactic since the game was first released, and you know what the most annoying thing about it was? It was never addressed! Inspiration Magic is a joke - it's an entire line dedicated to improving another primary profession's abilities. Don't get me wrong, the mesmer is my most favourite profession and I seldom play any other profession (when I bother to log in), but man, are my choices limited or what? Don't even ask me about PuGs because if I hear one more "LFG Panic mesmer" one more time I'm going to freak. And what's the deal with E-surge being good in PvE? It has a 20 second recharge! I want to say more but I have to go to bed. Working as a miner sucks! --Xu Davella 13:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I'm not attacking anyone, especially not logic. Now, irrational logic...

A very mesmer-like profession would fit between the damage-dealing elementalist and supporting necromancer. There are no hexes or interrupts like in GW1, but think about dazed and immobilize, etc. conditions. They can have very short durations (1sec), and can be effectively used as interruptions against enemies. When it comes to PvE... well, there are various reasons why the original design of mesmer could be more ffective in GW2 PvE than in GW1 PvE (you seem to be thinking they're the same, but they are not).

1. GW2 is soloable. GW1 is not.
2. All professions can play any role.
3. You can change your skills out of combat.

That last one is the most important reasons why "GW2 mesmer" can be more effective in PvE without making them too strong in PvP situations. They can more easily adapt to face their enemies in the way they want. This was the problem of "original mesmers" in GW1. And one last thing: A mesmer in GW1 who controls/camps only one opponent anywhere is a bad mesmer. Well, unless the situation really really really calls it. Anyway, that's my hastly composed reasoning why the design is not beyond hope in GW2. And I didn't read your new version yet. I'll get on it later. Mediggo 13:24, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll start off with the caveat that I've never played GW2. However, I havn't seen a whole lot of tank abilities... I've come to view pretty much everyone as a DPS with some self healing. I'm not sure there are roles in GW2. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.

Your point that you can "change skills out of combat" is relevant; so is having limited (at best) control over half your skill bar, which slightly lessens your point. Although I presume the skills chosen for each weapon type, to be utility skills, etc., are done in a way that strives to stop this from becoming too much of a burden. But again, I havn't played the game.

I'm not sure we're on the same page regarding the game being soloable. I'd consider a Mesmer on his / her own to be in more need of a viable array of abilities, yet you're disagreeing with me and citing that as evidence of your point. Could you expand on this please? If you're in a team you can be carried a little. If you're on your own, tough cookies.

It was not my intention to imply Mesmers stuck like glue on to one opponent in PvP, but I didn't much feel like going through the list of "mesmer in PvP 1 on 1, mesmer in PvP 2 on 1, mesmer in pvp 1 on 2, mesmer in pvp 2 on 2...". I was merely trying to point out that people and AI are so different, that the difference does impact the role of a Mesmer. Don't forget the fact that GW2 enemies will do their own thing instead of having random builds filled for the most part with player obtainable abilties. Which is obviously a QoL issue for anyone who has a Mesmer as their first character. A F K When Needed 13:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

• By roles I mean that the "original mesmer" in GW1 was never quite as good damage dealer as elementalist or as good tank/durable as a warrior. It is implied that in GW2 every profession can fill any role, as you no doubt know. As their damage-dealing capabilities have been vastly improved since original design, mesmers have become mainstream in PvE. Finding a balance is the key here, even if ArenaNet isn't exactly known for balancing everything perfectly.
• When it comes to soloability, it would seem that there are less encounters where there are many, many enemies, unlike in GW1 (which is a team/party based game). This means that single-target interrupts (regular interrupts in GW1, conditions and effects which interrupt in GW2) will retain their effectiveness in PvE, while previously they were only useful for PvP (Blackout and Diversion, for example). As Xu pointed above, e-denial is one reason why mesmers never were on par with other professions in PvE. Energy is no longer a feature in GW2.
• And finally... the skills. As you know, the first five weapon skills are tied to your weapon, which can be swapped. It can be expected that the final profession has two weapon sets (which can also be altered out of combat), as there is already two professions which have only one weapon set in combat, and have additional skillsets in form of attunements and kits. In GW1 you'd realize that this build wasn't the best against these enemies, but to change them you'd have to go back to outpost or just stick using to those skills. There's also far less skills overall in GW2 than in GW1, reducing the complexity and array of available skills, making "generally useful" skills less powerful (compared to GW1) and this more frequent and equally effective in all/every/most aspects of the game, including PvP.

Obviously, if the final profession is the mesmer inherited from GW1, they will have changed some, but I think their original design could be more effective in persistent, build-wise more flexible game. That's why I think they could live on in GW2. Mediggo 14:27, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

(reset indent) First, the discussion above forgets a crucial point — tank isn't considered one of the "roles" every profession can play — control is, of which tank is a subrole. Which is why not every profession can tank, but every profession can control. Also, coincidentally, control is what the GW1 Mesmer is about — so, the GW2 Mesmer's control role could be very similar to the GW1 Mesmer, which could mean the mesmer might have zero tank potential.

Now… What bothers you, basically, was that GW1 Mesmer was a profession centered around control — like the Monk was centered around healing. True enough, a profession able to control large mobs is overpowered in PvP, and a profession correctly balanced to control in PvP will suck in PvE, hence the many updates and splitting in GW1. But… here in GW2 the Mesmer (if the 8th profession is the mesmer) will obviously not be a control-centered profession — what with the whole "every profession fits every role" concept. Which should logically lead to a much better balance.

All in all, if they want to put in the Mesmer, it would probably not play anything like the GW1 Mesmer. It would probably be an illusion/mind control-themed caster, but not really specialized in control (or specialized in control the way the guardian is specialized in support — namely, not too much). Does that mean it doesn't deserve the name Mesmer and should be renamed ? I don't think so. -Alarielle- 15:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

A subroll?!

Hmmm... parmesan, herbs - Italian, cheddar cheese... A F K When Needed 23:27, 7 November 2011 (UTC)