File talk:Air Elemental.jpg

How is it redundant?

This picture is not the same as the other one. "File:Spark.jpg" is a close-up and looks nothing like the spark in this screenshot. Regardless of uploaders intent, this new image is a screenshot that illustrates the size of the elemental better than "File:Spark.jpg". I find it to be a better depiction of what you see in game. — Malacon on Blackgate 02:02, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Both images are depicting the same model. Spark is the more common term for the model, and furthermore this image has UI shown. Size is irrelevant as well, as the model scales. The other image can be improved, true, as it seems to be a low quality, however it is more defined of the subject itself - showing only said subject. Konig/talk 02:21, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Again, eye of the beholder. Scale is relevant to me and very likely others. And the name above the mob is informative. The user does not seem to be trying to replace the descriptor image. They are only showing what they see in the game. Valid reason for a screenshot in a gallery. — Malacon on Blackgate 02:44, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

The name is on the page of the article. It doesn't have to be in the image too - especially when so many different NPCs use the same model, thus no name or UI means we can use the same image, of the same unchanged model, on multiple NPCs - which is what we already do and in that case the size becomes misleading as not all NPCs with the same model are of the same size. Also, I am fairly certain that the NPCs summoned scale with level, though on this I may be wrong. Konig/talk 02:49, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

(editing ec) Oh, and by the way, you get no sense of scale for the spark air elemental. You just get a name in this. With a guild tag that was blurred out. Konig/talk 02:57, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

So far every ele I've summoned has matched my level, both elite and non-elite. And yeah I agree that we should just have 1 image that covers every mob with that model. -Auron 02:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to size scaling, not level scaling. Konig/talk 02:57, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

That name is not on the page. The name in his image is Lesser Air Elemental. That is the name I will see in the game which makes his leaving it in the image even better. If they do scale with level then leaving the level in the image becomes important also. It shows me what size the elemental is at that level. There should be images depicting every growth stage. The original spark model image (need a name for the image we use in the NPC box... model image sounds good) depicts some huge bright blue ball on a black background I have never seen in game. This new screenshot depicts precisely what I have seen in game. You're still talking like he was trying to replace the model image. Here's an important note. In this case there was no model image in the box at the time of his edit so he added one. Kudos to him. He should be thanked instead of having his hard work bulldozed. At the most you might link to the other model image plus add his to a gallery on the same page. If you do that have the courtesy of explaining your action to the user on the talk page. — Malacon on Blackgate 03:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

You realize that, soon enough, people will be making the articles "Lesser Air Elemental", "Lesser Fire Elemental", and so forth. Right? They are unique NPCs. That article, specifically and solely about the Lesser Air Elemental, and the only article about said elemental, will have the name at least 3 times (title article, in the infobox, and intro paragraph). Air Elemental, the place where this image was at, is not about the Lesser Air Elemental, but about the - you guessed it - Air Elemental. Two separate NPCs. Same model. Hence why we shouldn't have NPC names in images.

Having the level in the image just throws people off because the level can change. "There should be images depicting every growth stage" you realize how fucking retarded that sounds? I'm sorry, but it really does. It changes size a little - maybe. It really doesn't matter all that much. And if such is documented, it won't be on the main fucking image of the NPC which should and more than likely will be shared among every NPC using this model - from the "Lesser Air Elemental" to the Air Elemental to the Spark to the "Veteran Spark" to Branded Spark to anything else. And it certainly won't be a single image per step but a collage of each step - all 70+ of them! (now do you see the silliness of documenting each level's size?).

And btw, this screenshot and "File:Spark.jpg" depict the same exact model. So that is what you've seen in game. Whether you argue it isn't or not. Same model. No texture change. As to "bulldozing" people's hard work... well, sure, he did something helpful but everything we do will eventually be improved or removed for improvements. It's how wiki's work. We're not bulldozing his "hard work" (because taking 5 minutes of one's time to screenshot something and crop it is really hard), we're trying to improve the wiki. One doesn't need to explain actions to the users for one case since it happens constantly. Especially in the chaotic state the wiki is and will be for some time be in. The wiki editors are putting up scraps of information in unformatted (or improperly formatted) means - sometimes in the wrong spot. This information then gets taken, and reworked into the proper format. In the case of images, the first images put up will be poor quality, most likely, and eventually replaced with better quality images. At the moment, both images are of poor quality - one is tiny as all hell and includes UI, the other's large but is not that good definition. Eventually both images will get replaced, regardless of this discussion right now. All I'm doing is trying to have one image for that model, so that in the future only one image will get replaced.

And sorry for the outburst above, but your argument is just sounding bloody silly to me. This image does not provide any sense of size scale at all - there's nothing to compare the size to! And that's your main argument - the other being that it should show name but that's, as I said, 100% unneeded. Konig/talk 03:24, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Your belligerence only illustrates your closed minded bullying nature. It is unwarranted and unwanted. Further discussion is futile. The image is a valid screenshot and should not be deleted simply because you do not like it. — Malacon on Blackgate 03:41, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I would hardly call myself a bully - someone being annoyed at something doesn't make them a bully. But back on topic, I don't dislike the image. I just think that there are better images and that it doesn't fit proper wiki standards. Your arguments were, initially, that it shows size - it doesn't - and that the name being in it aids the onlooker - again, it doesn't since the proper image will be used on multiple named NPC articles. Your following argument was to show the progress of size scale - this image doesn't and can't do that, and the primary image for this model shouldn't either.

None of your arguments hold for why this image should be kept, so you resorted to "destroying the uploader's work" - something that is the very basis of a wiki. As far as I see it, this image should be deleted in favor of an image under the more commonly seen name (Spark) - the image there can, of course, be improved as I said. Konig/talk 04:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

non-speedy

I've removed the speedy tag from both this and "File:Fire Elemental.jpg" since the discussions obviously show that these are not "unobjectionable" deletions. As I do not personally have an opinion either way, and I agree with some of the arguments from both sides (one file per model is more efficient, but one file per distinct creature is more accurate), I don't feel qualified to make the call on deletion. —Dr Ishmael 19:02, 20 September 2012 (UTC)