Talk:City

I completed Hoelbrak and The Grove, and for both I got 3 Transmutation Stones, a copper coin and some XP points. I assume it stands for all 5, possibly 6 cities. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.36.147.93 (talk).

I've seen reports during the BWE2 for other items (mystic keys, now called Black Lion Keys). So the item may alter, but the copper and XP is likely a set value (for XP, it seems to be a % of level rather than a set amount). Konig/talk 21:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Eye of the North

With the addition of crafting services, merchants, banks, etc, to Eye of the North, should we move it from the lobby section? It has, essentially, all the services of a racial city (barring home instance) or Lion's Arch (barring Mystic Forge), and doesn't require a passkey like the other crafting-esque lounges. It's a normal part of the world accessed through the story line, and we have it in the 'Cities' template at the bottom of the pages for the original 6 cities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PanBelacqua (talk) at 03:19, 8 March 2021 (UTC).

City vs Lobby

So, what really is the difference between cities and lobbies? I know we've been differentiating between them both here and on Zone for a long time, but it really looks like our main difference is that cities were in the game at launch and later additions are all lobbies, which feels really weak. If the main factor is that a lobby is specifically intended primarily as a staging ground for some sort of activity, it does make sense to count zones like Dragon's Stand (Heart of Thorns), Lion's Arch Aerodrome, Mistlock Observatory, Hub or Heart of the Mists as lobbies. But Eye of the North, Memory of Old Lion's Arch, Arborstone and The Wizard's Tower not so much. Yes, they can work as staging grounds for strike missions, but it's not their main function. They also usually have merchants, bank, trading post, crafting stations, sometimes a Mystic Forge, free waypoint usage from within, and even story, all the major features and amenities we attribute to the launch cities as well. Memory of LA is even a version of Lion's Arch from the past that we definitely considered a city. After all, we use city as mostly a mechanical term, from a real-world point of view Hoelbrak would barely be one but New Kaineng City undoubtedly is one, but that's not what we're considering here.

In other words, is anyone against changing this page as well as Zone to count at least those four maps as proper cities? 20:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I personally think one major difference is also, that to be a city there has to be a map comletion with reward. Some of those on your list would qualify for this, too.--Aylia (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Strictly speaking – yes, they are the same type of zones technically. Lobbies are definitely smaller than proper Cities though, so might be a confusion for new players who might expect to see a full-on city zone from the wiki description. --Genie (talk) 07:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I have not considered this take, as far as I know Wizard's Tower is the only one of these zones with a map completion reward, although a couple others also have map completion objectives. Another similar point would be that some of these have tooltip on hover in-game and some actually don't. My main question is, though, how useful is this distinction for players, really? Should our definition of a lobby actually be "a city without map completion rewards" or "a city with less than X square feet of explorable area"? Besides, the Wizard's Tower isn't really that much smaller than the Grove or Hoelbrak either. I would argue the main distinction is a "purity of purpose". When you go to the Hub, you do it specifically to do something with SAB, there isn't really any other reason to go there. Similarly you'd go to the Mistlock Observatory in order to play Fractals or get some Fractals-related materials, Heart of the Mists is there specifically for PvP and so on. However, you might go to the EotN, Arborstone or Wizard's Tower for many reasons, be it story, strike missions, crafting, rest XP buff and so on, which makes them more general.

Now, I'm not saying we have to merge the two terms, but I think we should either merge them or define them better and separate them further. Now we're somewhere in between, where lobbies are kind of cities but not really, we distinguish between them in text, but every page does it differently (for instance look at zone infoboxes) but at the same time lobbies don't have their own page either. Another thing is the name itself, as far as I know ANet isn't calling these zones lobbies either (for instance they describe the Wizard's Tower as an outpost instead), but that's another matter entirely... 11:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

ArenaNet uses 'major', 'racial' and 'capital' cities when talking about the main 5 + Lion's Arch, so this distinction from anything else has to definitely stay. I know Arborstone and such use City in their infobox because afaik there is not anything else that would fit (which is something we can change easily though). I do not have any hard feelings about using the term Lobby or hub for other places, but they should not be completely mixed with the main 6. ~Sime 21:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

To me, the difference between the two lies primarily in purpose and scale. In the six core cities, the amount of space the vendors and crafting station use is... miniscule. To the point where LA has two lobbies inside of it (Aerodome and Guild Initiative HQ), while DR has one (Royal Terrace). There's also the home instances within cities (sans LA). The purpose of lobbies is, first and foremost, a gathering place for parties - usually strikes as of IBS, but you got the SAB lobby, the Dragon's Stand lobby, etc. - and a condensed place for vendors and crafting stations. Cities also have map completion, as noted - which I feel is a major definitive aspect.

This, admittedly, does make The Wizard's Tower a bit of a gray area as though it's clearly a spot for gathering parties and condensed place for vendors and crafting, the map is much larger and allows quite a lot of other things to do (including map completion and 3 adventures) and has map completion (though less rewards given than the cities). I would still call it a lobby, though pushing the boundaries of such. If we had gotten the full tower at the scope we do, rather than just half, in that zone, I would have to push for calling it a mechanical city instead... Konig (talk) 14:51, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

What's also interesting is that ANet's official communication has called the Wizard's Tower as an "outpost" when listing the zones. --Kossage (talk) 17:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to force this if the consensus is to keep it as is. Although I personally feel that calling these later hubs "lobbies" is disingenuous, especially The Wizard's Tower. To me the difference in purpose between the racial cities and the Tower is miniscule, especially compared to the Tower and the likes of SAB Hub or DS(HoT), and I don't feel like the size of unused fields or empty staircases is what determines how a zone is actually mechanically used by players. Calling these zones lobbies implies they're used primarily for people to gather squads for strikes, which is certainly not the case. If we're not going to consider them cities, I'd prefer to at least call EotN, Memory of LA, Arborstone and WT minor cities, or outpost as that's the latest official term. And if not even that and they're truly to be considered separate, I would at the very least separate the pages (similarly to lounges that have their own page and category as well) and fix the infoboxes. But, again, it seems like I'm the only one who wants to change this, so whatever. 18:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

As I said I am not against changes (and does not seem to me like others are either), I just want there to be a clear difference made between the racial cities vs what we call lobbies -- which seems to be what you want too, Noxx. Minor cities does not sound bad but I'd probably try to keep in line with the terminology used by Anet. I do have to say that with the Establishment section this page went a bit off-topic from its original goal, I think. An overview of the "lobbies" (or however we decide to call them) and their services is not a bad idea, though I am not absolutely sure about a new page right now, though if we do want to separate them it would make sense. ~Sime 18:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

If we want to keep those distinctions, we might need to use multiple tiers then. How about:

• City: large non-combat area required for core world completion (Lion's Arch, 5 racial cities)
• Outpost: general open-world hub for content from later releases, such as LW or expansions (EotN, Arborstone, Wizard's Tower)
• Lobby: smaller hub dedicated to a specific game mode or activity, doesn't have to be open-world (Aerodrome, Mistlock Observatory, SAB Hub, Heart of the Mists etc.)
• And for completeness' sake, Lounge: small general convenience area with item purchase required for access, regardless of whether it's an instance or part of another zone (for instance, Thousand Seas Pavilion and Mistlock Sanctuary are currently listed as cities and should probably be changed)

Outpost and lobby are kind of semi-official terms, and they might stay on a single page after all, whether City or even another word entirely. Although I would still prefer to make separate categories for them in infoboxes at least, to match this page and Zone as well. I also don't quite know what to do with Memory of Old LA, I've never actually been there personally; lore-wise it's obviously a city, but it doesn't fit into this description for those. With a small change to not require a purchased item it could fit into lounges, perhaps. Or most likely just make a Miscellaneous category for that one and maybe some of the major "establishments", most notably Amnoon. Other than that I would personally just delete the Establishment section, maybe move some of the major ones to "See also" or "Miscellaneous", the selection of individual villages and other settlements is way too arbitrary otherwise. 16:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

If we use "Outpost" we might run into issues with the Outpost feature of Heart of Thorns, maybe Hub would be better as Anet has used it for at least Arborstone and the Tower. Otherwise I agree with your division and naming of the various places. For Memory of LA honestly I wouuuld probably put it either into the Outpost/Hub section (as it is released with LWS1) or Lounge (even tho not purchased you need to unlock a pass for it via achievements). And yeah the establishment section is just a lore thing and we first and foremost want to separate gameplay features. ~Sime 13:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, Hub also exists, so that's not a good general term either. :/ That is kind of why I wanted to just call them cities, or something like minor cities. Calling them lobbies doesn't make much sense to me, but we don't really have another good name to use. I would probably still consider calling them outposts anyway, as long as they stay on a section of this page (yes, that's the exact opposite of what I suggested earlier :D) 22:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

I think that Outpost makes sense and uses official terminology. The current outpost page is small and likely tricky for users to find. The meta event type also hasn't been repeated in other content. I'm honestly curious as to the page's usage statistics. We just make Outpost (meta event) or Outpost (Events) or Outpost (Verdant Brink) and then it isn't an issue anymore. City>Outpost>Lobby>Lounge makes sense to me.

As for the definitions, may I remind everyone Amnoon exists. City or outpost? (T_T)--Rain Spell (talk) 01:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Well Amnoon is a part of the establishments on the page, which I guess based on what's currently agreed on (or leaning towards) would either not be included (since this is for mechanical stuff), or be in some kind of Miscellaneous category as it cannot be grouped with racial cities. ~Sime 01:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Personally I think we should be wary about adding too many terms to describe what are (imo) relatively minor differences between certain zones, though I echo Noxx's opinion generally. --ItVictor (talk) 02:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

So I went ahead and updated this page a little. For the time being I decided to combine the lobby and outpost categories we've talked about into one with both names, as the distinction is somewhat arbitrary but we couldn't think of a better name. I also kept the establishments but removed some of the less important ones. We'll see if it becomes bloated again, although it is probably a good idea to keep the most important such locations listed somewhere. Still, if anyone has a better idea on how to handle these zones or this page, feel free to make further suggestions. 14:48, 19 November 2023 (UTC)