Talk:Angered Nature Spirit

A collection of these beings shall henceforth be called an Angry Orchard. SarielV 20:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Type

Sure this is a Ghost? Killing one during the Greater Warbough event just finished my plant slayer achivement --BramStoker (talk, contribs) 23:07, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Confirmed and fixed. Good catch --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This is only done with mobs with unusual appearances which makes it hard to determine their races, such as the Colocal and Pinipal. With this one, it's pretty easy to figure out what they are. They are ghost-like and there is even the word spirit in their names. Unless you're willing to categorize the Vale Guardian as a plant (which was only done for balancing purposes for slaying potions), then these mobs should be considered ghosts. || Louise || 05:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This is also true for most (if not all) grubs. Though they progress wurm slayer, we list them as a Grub in the infobox, and just placed the anomaly tag at the bottom. I've added an anomaly tag for this article as well as the other ranks for Angered Nature Spirit (given they're just upscaled spawns I'd presume they progress the slayer achievement too). Can someone test the Wardbough and if it also progresses the achievement add the note there? In all honesty, this is likely a bug. They probably built these mobs off of oakhearts etc. to save time and didn't change the race parameter for them. Konig (talk) 06:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

1) Bloomhunger would like to argue with you about what is and is not a plant, especially given that the spirits he used to summon counted as plants. :P (Seriously: it looks intentional.)

2) If we're not including the "race" that the game considers them in that field, then where should we put it? --Imry (talk) 02:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Don't ever recall the old Bloomhunger's summons counting as plant slayer but it'd still be the same idea. About the new Bloomhunger, they're not ghosts but gain a spectral aura as fight mechanics. As for where to put it: nowhere. I added anomaly note, that is sufficient. Konig (talk) 04:47, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Putting their lore race in the infobox instead of their mechanical race makes them be added to the incorrect race article, which is relevant for someone who might be seeking a Slayer achievement or trying to use a slaying potion. I think it should display mechanical race for this reason (perhaps modifying the template to accept and display 2 racial entries: what they are mechanically and what they ought to be, should that be different) --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 10:31, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The old Bloomhunger spirits definitely counted as plants; it's how I got Plant Slayer done.

Bloomhunger (as he currently is) certainly looks like a spirit to me. He can shift between spirit/spectral and corporeal forms. The Angered Nature Spirit looks the same to me, although stuck in spirit form and without the Fractal boss h4x. Again, I'm really not seeing what's so different about the two, so I don't see why the Angered Nature Spirit shouldn't be classified as a plant. --Imry (talk) 12:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

If it's mechanically a plant, the infobox should indicate race = plant. We've got the organization correct as Druid, I don't see why the ghost race would come into this at all. -Chieftain Alex 17:57, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Guess we should go back and alter every grub article to be |race=wurm and Vale Guardian to be |race=plant as well. We've done it this way since the game released, why change now? Konig (talk) 18:32, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I think that this is best done on a case-by-case basis. I mean, "Inquest", "Nightmare Court", and "Bandit" are all mechanically considered races by the game, but we can all agree that "|race = Inquest" would be wrong, eh?

I'm trying to think of a compromise... okay. Looking back at what the Kodama and friend have to say, it looks like humans went through a ritual to leave behind their human bodies and become druids. This is basically what the Exalted did. Can we do "|race = Druid" and then alter the Plant page to say that "Note that only Treants and Druids count towards the Plant Slayer achievement." ?

(Acutally, I'm like 90% sure that fungi are considered plants because they drop the same champ loot bags, but that's another debate.) --Imry (talk) 01:00, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Fungi have their own family called "Mushrooms" MadMaxx (talk) 02:20, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The fungi family name is... fungi, apparently. They are indeed separate from plants though they were given the same champ bags (they do not progress plant slayer). But slayer seems to affect both family and army (or as wiki puts it, species and organization), given that Inquest slaying tonics, for example, do not affect all hostile asura. And iirc, Toxic Krait are affected by both krait slaying and scarlet alliance slaying tonics (one affecting the family (krait) the other affecting the army (scarlet's alliance)) - though on this I may be wrong.

Either way, I kind of agree with "case by case" or rather, "sometimes we have exceptions". And this feels like an exception. In lore, they're druids - humans turned plants turned spirits, effectively meaning they're the ghosts of plants with souls. Why it affects Plant Slayer, idk, but it would feel weird af to turn Vale Guardian to list it as a plant, rather than having a note about it for example, and I feel the same for these and grubs. Konig (talk) 03:43, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Mobs should only be categorized by the slaying achievement they contribute towards when it's extremely difficult to determine which race they belong to, such as the two examples I linked above in my earlier comment. As for the Nature spirit being a ghost of a plant of a human, this is pretty simple. Mobs that have intricate backstories should also be categorized in relation to their current form when they are encountered in-game. When you encounter an Angered Nature Spirit, it is just that, a spirit. It's no longer human or a plant but a ghost-like entity. A side-note related to this, Druids are not a race but a group of individuals, two completely different things. I also disagree completely with saying that the Inquest, Nightmare Court and Bandits are considered races. They are organizations and there is already a place for them in the infobox.

Now, at first, I wasn't too sure of what to make of the Mushrooms so for a long time their race was only refered as the Mushroom race but in retrospect, I agree with the decision of renaming it to Fungi since they are quite a distinct and unique type of creature and it would've felt weird to lump the lot of them with the plants. And to adress the final point, Potions of Slaying are not the best indicator of a mob's race. The best example being the Vale Guardian, which is considered a plant for balancing purposes in raids. This ties in with my first point, being that the Slayer achievements and potions should only be used as last resorts to determine a mob's race. || Louise || 04:36, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't agree with information such as that being anywhere but the infobox, Konig. On most pages that's exactly where you'd find that information, and the infobox has semantic properties that are called by the appropriate species page as well. The wiki documents the game as it IS, not how it should be. As far as the game is concerned, this and Vale Guardian are Plants, and grubs are Wurms. Also, considering some grubs are wurm larvae (as seen in Triple Trouble) it's not that ridiculous for them to be called wurms (though some are supposed to be insect grubs and yet advance it anyway, but again, they are wurms as far as the game is concerned). I still think a solution would be to have 2 fields for species, for when it is mechanically different than what it logically should be. Until then, however, it should say what the game considers them to be --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Also perhaps this discussion should go in the community portal --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I really don't see us reaching a consensus here ._. We can take the general issue about how to use the |race parameter to the community portal.

~

About druids being ghosts in particular: our article on ghosts specifically refers to ghosts as people who have died but haven't yet passed on. The druids don't fit that. They purposely underwent a ritual to change their form and keep them from dying - this is exactly what the Exalted went through. The only difference is that the Exalted have shiny armour as part of their body covering their ghostlybits. If we're classifying druids as ghosts, then are we classifying Exalted as undead?

I also don't think that "spirit" is necessarily a synonym for "ghost". There's a lot of mythologies out there that have incorporeal and liminal creatures (along with other five-dollar words) that are just naturally that way. Shinto Kami are one example. The norn spirits of the wild look like this - the Minotaur Spirit isn't a minotaur that died and is sticking around for some unfinished business, but is some kind of demipower that's naturally that way. Or at least I would, but Konig changed its race to "ghost" years ago, so *shrugs*

I mean, unless we're up for redefining a ghost to be "anything that's see-through", which sounds unnecessarily broad.

~

About Inquest and asura: I know that the game recognises "norn" and "sylvari" as their own races/species (so like, Faolain is a "nightmare court" and not a "sylvari" from a mechanical perspective), so I'd bet that the game has "asura" as its own race/species. The game would mechanically treat Kudu as "inquest" but not "asura", and it would treat the Vigil Tactician (hero challenge) as an "asura" but not "inquest". (Man, that example was hard to find X.x) --Imry (talk) 01:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

As I've already said, mobs and NPCs' races should only be considered as to how they appear in-game unless otherwise, for the reasons I stated above, and not in relation to their backstory. Most of the time, the backstory relates more to the organization section more than anything else so it's already covered. I still disagree about the whole sylvari of the Nightmare Court being considered as part of the Nightmare Court race. That doesn't make sense at all. The Nightmare Court, Inquest and etc are all organizations, that's it. They have potions of slaying related to them but that's only for gameplay purposes, it has no impact on race at all. There is no point whatsoever in overcomplicating things for the sake of it. || Louise || 01:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

(reset indent) Sorry, I think I was unclear. I agree that "|race = Nightmare Court" would be wrong, regardless of what the game data says. Right now I'm arguing that the druids should be their own race, similar to the Exalted. --Imry (talk) 02:19, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

The ghosts article hasn't had a proper lore update since 2014 and honestly excludes a lot of lore. Druids are ghosts in that ghosts are souls (usually of formerly living beings that remain in Tyria, though technically souls in the Mists would also be ghosts). Druids are a group of ghosts just as White Mantle are a group of humans. Exalted are a bit odd. One can argue their species should be Construct and organization Exalted, or that their species should be Exalted because Construct is a rather catch-all term akin to animal and not all animals are of the animal species. Konig (talk) 03:10, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Except, as far as the game is concerned, they are plants. Or, at least, this one is (though there is the possibility that it's both, like Crabs, which are Ambient and Crustacean) --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 04:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

The only relation the Angered Nature Spirit has with anything plant is the potion of slaying and the slayer achievement, that's it. As for the crab, this specific type is considered an ambient creature and not a crustacean because it behaves as such unlike the rest of the crustacean species found in-game which acts like combatable mobs. || Louise || 15:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Again, the wiki documents the game as it IS first and foremost. And what it IS, as far as the game is concerned, is a plant. You yourself have brought up the Pinipal, which does not in any way resemble a griffon (being a blob of fat with no wings or any other avian features, with a name that suggests they are related to seals/walruses, unlike the Colocal which has vestigial wings), and yet we call it as such because it is treated as a griffon by the game --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 16:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

The wiki does do that but in the realm of what makes sense. For these unusual cases, we write the mechanical race such the Angered Nature Spirit being a ghost and we write down a note/anomaly at the bottom saying that it contributes to a specific slayer X despite it not being very clear. And you clearly either didn't read or misread my point about the Pinipal as I've said that it is, along with the Colocal, one of these few examples in the game where we have no idea what their true race is so we just go with the achievement they contribute to. Again, this is not the norm of the wiki. || Louise || 16:44, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

And you don't recognize the contradiction in being okay with Crabs being classified as Ambient Creatures? It's plainly a crustacean. It even counts as a crustacean as far as the game is concerned. And yet it's classified as an ambient creature because of game mechanics --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 23:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It's far less of a contradiction than saying a ghost is a plant because the game says so. Atleast you can determine what is an ambient creature and what isn't. Besides, the ambient creatures category comprises of a multitude of different species, ranging from bugs to birds to animals. Mixing them with already existing categories and pages would be an absolute mess and wouldn't make much sense wiki-wise. Inter-linking is only done when absolutely necessary or when it makes sense and this isn't the case. || Louise || 00:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

It is exactly as contradictory. You're calling a crab an ambient creature because the game says it is one (while the game ALSO says that it is a crab). And you CAN determine what is or isn't a plant. That's how this started in the first place. And it makes plenty of sense for these things to be interlinked because it's information that is relevant to people seeking out a species to kill (which is likely the reason they're looking at the species page in the first place). If someone wants to advance Shell Slayer it would be helpful for them to know that ambient crabs count, since they can be killed far faster, and the same for Insect Slayer in regards to Lightning Bugs and Sparkflies, ambient spiders for Spider Slayer, etc --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

It's really not the same. A ghostly entity doesn't equal a plant at all while a crab can be both an ambient creature and a crustacean but over inter-linking is useless as having a page for all of them is much more useful and practical. And by the way, I did bring up the fact that we leave an anomaly in the Notes section saying if a certain mob is counting towards a slayer achievement when it's not too clear so you're arguing about something that's already there. || Louise || 00:43, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm arguing about putting it in the place it belongs. The infobox exists to give quick information to the reader, as well as semantic values that other pages use automatically. Saying it's a ghost when it is not and not saying it's a plant when it is means that the reader won't find the information by looking at the most obvious place to find it (and not just not find the correct information, but find incorrect information in its place), and pages that they might look to to find a mechanical species won't contain the information, whereas others will when they shouldn't. Arguing in favor of calling it a ghost when it is not is arguing in favor of putting objectively incorrect information on the wiki, in multiple places, on purpose. Also, "ambient creature" isn't a species in the slightest. It's a description of their interaction with game mechanics. Which is exactly what ghost/plant is --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

This kind of information belongs in the Notes section more than anywhere else. The infobox is used to show everything important about the NPCs/mob. Race, level, services, area, and organization optionally. Whether they contribute to Challenge X or Potion Y belongs in the notes, not the infobox as it is side information that is only useful for those that seeks it. Also, no matter how hard you try to say that a mob with the word spirit in its name is a plant doesn't change the fact that it remains a ghost, not a plant. The only thing saying otherwise is the slayer achievements and it is far from being the most reliable source of information on this matter. Also, I didn't say that ambient creatures are a species per se, but they consist of various types of creatures and animals, some of which are harder to categorize than others. Frog comes to mind. There is no Amphibian race in Guild Wars 2 so this one is already out and there's a lot more that you can find by just taking a peek at them. All in all, it would make inter-linking a pain even though it something I disagree wholeheartedly with anyway. || Louise || 01:16, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Quick, simple question. If some ambient creatures count towards other race kills, and the info box allows for more than one race to be listed, why don't we list both in the infobox? I honestly didn't know the little ambient crabs counted toward Shell Slayer, so I feel like that could help. - Do_odleplex 01:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

It's already written in the first or second sentence that they contribute towards these achievements so there is little point in over-reapeating the information in such a short span. Also, by means of gameplay, this specific type of crab is an ambient creature and should only be listed as such. This ties in the inter-linking I mentioned above which serves little purpose over all but to muddy the water unnecessarily. || Louise || 01:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm in favour of listing druids as "|race = ghost, plant". It sounds like a good compromise. --Imry (talk) 02:18, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Once again, druids are not a specific race, they are a group of human individuals that have banded together to connect with nature. As we encounter them in Guild Wars 2, they are all in spiritual form. So, if we followed your and Gimme's logic, we would need to write it as "|race = Ghost, Human, Plant". That does not make an ounce of sense. I will say it again to make myself clear. The race of NPCs and mobs should always be in relation to their current state in-game as well as to keep inter-linking to a minimum. I've seen it done before (I myself did it in the past before re-reading it and seeing how much of a mess it was). If we ever encounter a druid that isn't in spirit form, then go ahead, write in plant but until then, no matter what the slayer achievements say, they are ghosts. If you ever need a reminder, just check the name of the page you're on and you'll get a pretty massive hint. || Louise || 02:31, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, you don't think that druids are a race. Do you think that Exalted count as a race? Because they're technically dead humans possessing constructs. So by your logic we should use "|race = contruct" for them. --Imry (talk) 04:04, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not a matter of what I think. Druids are a group, not a race. Also, I've never said one word about the Exalted as of now so I would appreciate it if you could refrain from speaking for me. I do think the Exalted are unique enough to warrant their own race because they're more than mere metal constructs such as Charr Effigies and the like. They are humans that were willingly transfered into magical beings by the Forgotten. Whether they should be considered an organization or a race can be up for debate but I lean more towards the latter. || Louise || 04:37, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Everything you listed (Race, level, services, area, and organization optionally) are gameplay mechanics. Level is nothing BUT gameplay mechanic, services and area are relevant to gameplay, and organization and race are involved in slayer achievements/potions/sigils. Why should the race entry ignore what the game mechanics say they are when everything else in the box is game mechanics? And why should a person seeking information about slayer be unable to find a list of what is involved (not to mention have it polluted with entries for killable enemies that are NOT affected by it) because someone decided to ignore the game mechanics when they input the race into the infobox? And no, I wouldn't say "|race = Ghost, Human, Plant" because lore-wise they aren't human any more (lore argument on that one because humans are irrelevant mechanically) and mechanically they are plants, not ghosts (probably). If they aren't ghosts at all then they shouldn't be listed as such, because that has mechanical relevance. I don't care in the slightest about the Exalted issue because there's no objectively correct answer on what to call them, since there's no mechanic that gives such an answer --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 06:34, 8 June 2017 (UTC)